How much to run a bus per hour?

Geordie driver · 19 Feb 2020

Everyone seems to moan about the price of bus travel, but it must cost a fair bit per hour to run a decker.
Let's say a newish decker out from 6am to midnight in a medium sized UK city?
I can't see the operator getting much change from 40 or even 50 quid an hour once wages, cost of vehicle, fuel, other overheads are taken into consideration.
There are many others on here who know way more than me about this kind of stuff, your thoughts please?

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TheGrandWazoo · 19 Feb 2020

Geordie driver said:
Everyone seems to moan about the price of bus travel, but it must cost a fair bit per hour to run a decker.
Let's say a newish decker out from 6am to midnight in a medium sized UK city?
I can't see the operator getting much change from 40 or even 50 quid an hour once wages, cost of vehicle, fuel, other overheads are taken into consideration.
There are many others on here who know way more than me about this kind of stuff, your thoughts please?

Phil Stockley (respected bus industry figure) said about 6-7 years ago that £30 per hour was a figure for a largely depreciated vehicle.

If you work on a figure of £450 a day, you won't be far wrong.

Pc86 · 19 Feb 2020

Would be quite interested to see what it’s like vs the HGV world. We aim for 500-550 per day revenue to keep the wheels turning and the directors in posh cars.

TheGrandWazoo · 19 Feb 2020

Pc86 said:
Would be quite interested to see what it’s like vs the HGV world. We aim for 500-550 per day revenue to keep the wheels turning and the directors in posh cars.

Indeed, that's about the range for an LGV.

Of course, LGVs tend to have a shorter working life. Typically a tractor unit would have a 5-7 year life (depending on the mileage/type of work) whilst rigids would have a longer life but still nowhere near the life of a bus.

Geordie driver · 19 Feb 2020

TheGrandWazoo said:
Phil Stockley (respected bus industry figure) said about 6-7 years ago that £30 per hour was a figure for a largely depreciated vehicle.

If you work on a figure of £450 a day, you won't be far wrong.

I assume most buses are leased now with relatively fixed and predictable costs. I am aware depreciation is a money pit and most buses I see now are relatively new.

Pc86 · 19 Feb 2020

TheGrandWazoo said:
Indeed, that's about the range for an LGV.

Of course, LGVs tend to have a shorter working life. Typically a tractor unit would have a 5-7 year life (depending on the mileage/type of work) whilst rigids would have a longer life but still nowhere near the life of a bus.

We have 3 rigids that are 18/19 years old we still run so i am assuming a rigid is probably more comparable then a tractor unit. They are one big bill away from being thrown in the bin though!

Simon75 · 19 Feb 2020

Hiring a coach is about £600 a day

TheGrandWazoo · 19 Feb 2020

Geordie driver said:
I assume most buses are leased now with relatively fixed and predictable costs. I am aware depreciation is a money pit and most buses I see now are relatively new.

Most buses are purchased outright with the exception of London, where there's the risk of losing contracts and the hassle of redeployment of fleet.

Geordie driver · 19 Feb 2020

I have no idea how much a decker is now or it's lifespan. But assuming it's 150k to buy and will last 15 years ( to help my poor maths!) it loses money at 200 quid a week without even turning a wheel. Or is my maths way off?!!

Pc86 · 19 Feb 2020

I think the figure is closer to 190k for a Double Decker (Google is my friend).

You will see the biggest drop in value years 1-5. After that the depreciation will not be as severe. After year 10 it all comes down to the mileage/condition of the vehicle.

There is still normally residual value in the vehicle at the end of its serviceable lifespan. Its by no means worth nothing at the end of its life.

Statto · 19 Feb 2020

Even registering a route can cost a bit, it's £100,000 just for one extra bus added to the timetable

TheGrandWazoo · 19 Feb 2020

Pc86 said:
I think the figure is closer to 190k for a Double Decker (Google is my friend).

You will see the biggest drop in value years 1-5. After that the depreciation will not be as severe. After year 10 it all comes down to the mileage/condition of the vehicle.

There is still normally residual value in the vehicle at the end of its serviceable lifespan. Its by no means worth nothing at the end of its life.

Google has underestimated!

A new e200mmc will be c£200k whilst and e400mmc will be nearer £250k depending on the specifications.

Also, think you’re viewing depreciation very much like a car. Bus companies tend to plan long term so that buy with a 15 year life (17 for First) for most types and will depreciate over a straight line so if it costs you £250k but you’ll have a residual of £10k at the end, it will be £16k pa or just over £300/wk.

Man of Kent · 19 Feb 2020

Pc86 said:
I think the figure is closer to 190k for a Double Decker (Google is my friend).

Not that accurate a friend. You'd only get a large single deck for that. Study some of the recent press releases by major operators, and it's a long way off. Even Stagecoach is paying around £240,000 (the recent fleet delivered to Witney). I've been using £0.25m as a fairly good benchmark for a double-deck. Higher specs cost more, and alternative fuels considerably more.

Geordie driver · 19 Feb 2020

So a bus depreciates at roughly 2.50 an hour on the road. Not as much as I thought, Do they still sell them on to smaller operators? I can remember when stagecoach used to set fire to older vehicles to stop the competition getting them.

TheGrandWazoo · 19 Feb 2020

Geordie driver said:
So a bus depreciates at roughly 2.50 an hour on the road. Not as much as I thought, Do they still sell them on to smaller operators? I can remember when stagecoach used to set fire to older vehicles to stop the competition getting them.

The pilot is by far the greatest cost and it’s more than the £10 per hour that the driver sees when you factor in employment costs.

Statto · 19 Feb 2020

Would bus companies get discounts buying new buses in bulk, such as Stagecoach put in an order for something like 20 vehicles spread over there divisions, but would get a discount say !0% off the total price?

Geordie driver · 19 Feb 2020

TheGrandWazoo said:
The pilot is by far the greatest cost and it’s more than the £10 per hour that the driver sees when you factor in employment costs.

my mate is on 11.50 an hour so I reckon nearer 15 by the time you taking in holidays, sickness, training, national insurance and pay for non driving time.

TheGrandWazoo · 19 Feb 2020

Geordie driver said:
my mate is on 11.50 an hour so I reckon nearer 15 by the time you taking in holidays, sickness, training, national insurance and pay for non driving time.

On that sort of rate (and I was being mean), you’re about spot on.

shopbford · 19 Feb 2020

I would imagine there must be some routes which take a fair bit of cash. 35 years ago 2 x Newcastle + 1 x Darlington could cash in £200, X10 to Middlesbrough & X1 back could yield a similar sum. Market days were another busy time even on local routes around Chester le Street. Haven't a clue how they go about storing cash in this day and age.

175mph · 20 Feb 2020

Statto said:
Even registering a route can cost a bit, it's £100,000 just for one extra bus added to the timetable

I wonder how much it must of cost to re-register the Scunthorpe to Hull 350 service from an hourly service to a half-hourly service back in 2009, ignoring the cost of the new vehicles they purchased for the route?

markymark2000 · 20 Feb 2020

Chartwell were selling brand new 200MMCs for less than £150k.

https://www.chartwellbussales.co.uk/buses_details.php?bus=4

Geordie driver · 20 Feb 2020

In 85 when I started fares were low and it wasn't unknown to pay in 200 quid on cross boundary services into Northumberland, were were told for every pound we took the company took 2 in revenue from passes, not sure how true that is.
I have had busy days with nearly 500 passengers carried. Saturdays when the match is on, Northumberland plate or sunny bank holidays with reduced services.

Pat1105 · 20 Feb 2020

There are many different factors that need to be taken into account in order to work out the daily cost of putting a vehicle on the road.

1. Type of vehicle - Older/larger vehicles are more likely to use more fuel, older vehicles especially are likely to require more maintenance than newer vehicles.
2. Driver’s Wage - This depends on what rate the driver is on and how many hours they work.
3. Type of route - A bus on a longer, interurban route will use more fuel because of the larger distance and higher speeds.
4. Depot & Maintenance - Fixed costs, such as the price of running a depot, and the price of parts e.t.c also need to be factored in as they contribute to overall running costs.

To put it straight, the answer is that the cost of running a bus varies based on these factors.

shopbford · 20 Feb 2020

Geordie driver said:
In 85 when I started fares were low and it wasn't unknown to pay in 200 quid on cross boundary services into Northumberland, were were told for every pound we took the company took 2 in revenue from passes, not sure how true that is.
I have had busy days with nearly 500 passengers carried. Saturdays when the match is on, Northumberland plate or sunny bank holidays with reduced services.

I mainly worked late shift and remember one day in 1986 being the last bus out of Worswick Street and got inundated with passengers. Then a limo arrived and all the members of Queen got out, I probably had a better view than many in St James Park. Others of note were late night shopping on a Thursday before Xmas or the 7pm service to Newcastle on any Friday night.

Geordie driver · 20 Feb 2020

Saturday when the Northumberland plate was on ( horse racing) you got hammered all day from start to finish, normal shoppers, race goers and the hoppings on the town moor. If you were lucky the traffic would seize up and you might miss a few runs.

L401CJF · 21 Feb 2020

In my place of work they are having some real issues as the fleet is relatively new - yes you read that right!

Volvo B5LH Hybrid Geminis, 13 plate. They are causing problems at the moment and costing an absolute fortune to maintain. If i remember rightly 3 of the 33 are on their 2nd engine, constant electrical faults, hybrid batteries are life expired and need replacing at an eyewatering cost (£10s of thounsands per bus). They have Volvos I-shift automated manual gearboxes of which a few are on their 2nd box, the clutches are on their last legs and theyre quite often breaking down now. The company have a very expensive parts contract with Volvo too and the costs of keeping them going are ridiculous now.

shopbford · 21 Feb 2020

Geordie driver said:
Saturday when the Northumberland plate was on ( horse racing) you got hammered all day from start to finish, normal shoppers, race goers and the hoppings on the town moor. If you were lucky the traffic would seize up and you might miss a few runs.

And as usual when busy never a "checkie" in sight.

TheGrandWazoo · 21 Feb 2020

L401CJF said:
In my place of work they are having some real issues as the fleet is relatively new - yes you read that right!

Volvo B5LH Hybrid Geminis, 13 plate. They are causing problems at the moment and costing an absolute fortune to maintain. If i remember rightly 3 of the 33 are on their 2nd engine, constant electrical faults, hybrid batteries are life expired and need replacing at an eyewatering cost (£10s of thounsands per bus). They have Volvos I-shift automated manual gearboxes of which a few are on their 2nd box, the clutches are on their last legs and theyre quite often breaking down now. The company have a very expensive parts contract with Volvo too and the costs of keeping them going are ridiculous now.

A problem with many hybrids in respect of maintenance costs incl batteries. East Yorkshire repowered theirs to be Euro VI diesel IIRC. First West of England have 8 of which 6 have been laid up since Spring 2018.

Jozhua · 21 Feb 2020

I'd be surprised if the bus operators don't make a killing around Manchester with the running costs quoted! Singles start at 2.70, and many buses appear to be quite full. Prices seem to rise about 20-50p a year, or three times as fast as everyone's wages...

Man of Kent · 21 Feb 2020

Jozhua said:
I'd be surprised if the bus operators don't make a killing around Manchester with the running costs quoted! Singles start at 2.70, and many buses appear to be quite full. Prices seem to rise about 20-50p a year, or three times as fast as everyone's wages...

First Manchester lost £17.7m in the year to March 2019.
Stagecoach Manchester made a profit of £15.5m in the year to April 2019.
Other operators vary between these two figures....
A rough and ready calculation from figures in the Stagecoach report gives an average revenue per passenger of around about £1.15. Not many people buy singles (which start at £2.50 on Stagecoach). £2.50 is the same as First's on-bus flat fare in Bristol, but there is no counterpart to the latter's three-stop fare (£1.20) though I have heard suggestions that this is widely abused through over-riding.

How much to run a bus per hour?

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