some bloke
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I've started a new thread about this:
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-no-request-to-produce-a-valid-ticket.200697/
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Fixed Penalty Fair given while buying ticket at destination station.
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https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...-no-request-to-produce-a-valid-ticket.200697/
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BanburyBlue
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I'm assuming the people who work in the ticket office, are a different team to the Revenue Protection people?
Do the Revenue Protection people get a pay incentive for the number of Fixed Penalties they issue?
It just sounds like if they are, then this is driving poor behaviour in that this makes customers queuing at an Excess Fares booth easy targets.
I'd be careful saying that in any response/explanation to Northern. Franchises are cracking down on e-tickets. There is a growing perception that fare evaders abuse them. Basically board the train without a ticket with intent to travel for free - then only buy an e-ticket on the app if the guard is conducting ticket checks or there is a block at the destination station.
It has been this way for years. Now it's just that the companies have more tools with which to extract money from people.
westcoaster
Established Member
The OP said they had taken a screenshot of the app failing/not issuing. That would timestamp If the OP had a clock visable on his screen (proof also of trying to purchase a ticket before departure time, or could also show trying to purchase a ticket on a train already departed could work both ways.)
gray1404
Established Member
However, knowing Northern they are going to expect the OP to have gone to the other ticket machine on the other platform - despite the distance 
WesternLancer
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removed post
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WesternLancer
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This seems to be the key issue:
"I understand ticket purchasing problems were encountered on the date of travel in that the ticket vending machine at Burley Park appeared not to be accepting card payments at the time of travel. To assess appeals based on ticket purchasing problems, train companies allow PSL access to historic ticket sales data. Ticket sales are captured by train operators in “real time” and uploaded to a central database, where the data is stored. It cannot be altered or manipulated by the train operator in any way, therefore, the data is a factual representation of sales which took place. As part of this investigation, it has been established that the ticket vending machine at Burley Park was functioning normally and that the facility to obtain a ticket or a promise to pay had existed."
If you can show to a reasonable level of proof (eg screen shot of machine failing when you tried at this time) then you can appeal again and I would do so. If you can't it will be tricky.
Seperatly
Make a note to pursue every late train ticket refund claim you can in future of course
some bloke
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Could you try your card again in the same machine, and video the outcome if it doesn't work?
While claiming that they have taken all your points into account, they haven't addressed your point that the penalty fare was charged despite staff not doing something which seems to be a requirement:
Remember that as the appeals service has refused your first appeal, the company can't now prosecute for the same incident.
While claiming that they have taken all your points into account, they haven't addressed your point that the penalty fare was charged despite staff not doing something which seems to be a requirement:
What they say about that could be of interest to other people. If you haven't already spelt out that the penalty fare regulations appear to require staff to request a valid ticket, you could say it now (see above).
Remember that as the appeals service has refused your first appeal, the company can't now prosecute for the same incident.
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Cheers for that totally forgot
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Hang on a minute...if both the TVM and the app wouldn't sell you a ticket, is the issue in fact with your bank? That would be my conclusion as they don't sell through the same systems, the app is generally provided by a contractor, often Trainline.
If so, Northern will win this one, I'm afraid; issues with your bank mean you did not have a valid method of payment. It's always sensible to carry more than one card, or if you don't have more than one card some cash.
Or do you mean "you couldn't select that train any more"? This is a bit silly the way that happens (and it also happens on Northern's poorly designed TVMs), but you could presumably select another one that offered the same walk-up fare.
Yeah I couldn't select that train anymore, thinking I may just pay £20 and get on with my life aha
WesternLancer
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Yes, that's the choice really, and annoyingly as they will rely on it. Hence my point about making sure you claim every delay-repay you are entitled to in future as a method of recouping the sum...
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Ah, I see.
gray1404
Established Member
I would certainly appeal again, given it can be done online. You can also pay it and still appeal. If they then decide to accept your appeal they will refund anything you have paid.
So yes, pay it to bring an end to the matter and then appeal again. You have not been treated fairly by Northern and they can't be allowed to get away with it. It is also worth nothing that now that an appeal decision has been issued Northern are now statue barred from taking this matter to court in terms of criminal proceedings.
It is also worth noting that many appeal are only won at the point of third appeal.
So yes, pay it to bring an end to the matter and then appeal again. You have not been treated fairly by Northern and they can't be allowed to get away with it. It is also worth nothing that now that an appeal decision has been issued Northern are now statue barred from taking this matter to court in terms of criminal proceedings.
It is also worth noting that many appeal are only won at the point of third appeal.
"I understand ticket purchasing problems were encountered on the date of travel in that the ticket vending machine at Burley Park appeared not to be accepting card payments at the time of travel. To assess appeals based on ticket purchasing problems, train companies allow PSL access to historic ticket sales data. Ticket sales are captured by train operators in “real time” and uploaded to a central database, where the data is stored. It cannot be altered or manipulated by the train operator in any way, therefore, the data is a factual representation of sales which took place. As part of this investigation, it has been established that the ticket vending machine at Burley Park was functioning normally and that the facility to obtain a ticket or a promise to pay had existed."
Now this may be poor wording on their part, but at face value they seem to be saying that they think the machine was working fine because it was recording sales during the period you travelled. But does that data also show attempted and/or failed transactions as well? Just because the person in front and behind you made successful purchases doesn’t seem conclusive proof that you would have been able to. These machines are well known to have intermittent faults
Now this may be poor wording on their part, but at face value they seem to be saying that they think the machine was working fine because it was recording sales during the period you travelled. But does that data also show attempted and/or failed transactions as well? Just because the person in front and behind you made successful purchases doesn’t seem conclusive proof that you would have been able to. These machines are well known to have intermittent faults
I would suggest a further appeal also.
This would leaves you a grey mark in operator's database, in which you may face tougher handling in future ticketing incidents.
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