Proposed abandonment of Smart Motorways

Bletchleyite · 19 Feb 2020

cactustwirly said:
So you're saying that cars should be miles apart from each other then?

The "two second rule", or two chevrons where painted, is about how far apart cars should be and I would welcome enforcement on the matter as far too few people respect this. Distance wise it's a lot further than most drivers seem to think.

If you are finding yourself using the brakes a lot on the motorway (beyond a light touch to disengage cruise control if you're using the non-adaptive type) you are almost certainly way too close.

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Bletchleyite · 19 Feb 2020

DerekC said:
@Bletchleyite did say non-adaptive cruise control, and I certainly wouldn't use that on a congested motorway at 70mph because by definition cars are close enough to need very rapid reaction to something unexpected happening.

Indeed. I've had a car with non-adaptive cruise control and I never used it when the road got busy. Adaptive cruise control (of the type that maintains spacing), set so it maintains a two-second spacing, is an excellent idea on any motorway provided it doesn't cause the driver to zone out, particularly if it doesn't control braking so you'd need to be ready to slam on if something really bad happened.

Bald Rick · 19 Feb 2020

Scousemouse said:
The cameras on smart motorways are always near a gantry and are preceded by three cameras on a pole. They are also yellow. You can normally see from quite a way off.

Nothing stopping you from going well over the limit in between them before scrubbing off speed in time for the three cameras.

Not necessarily. The newer smart motorways only have one ‘proving’ camera in rear of the actual speed cameras (rather than 3) and only the latter are yellow.

And on the older smart motorways, as the vegetation has grown back, some of the cameras are now partially hidden.

bramling · 19 Feb 2020

Bletchleyite said:
If you are finding yourself using the brakes a lot on the motorway (beyond a light touch to disengage cruise control if you're using the non-adaptive type) you are almost certainly way too close.

Or some prat has done a botched lane-change in your path. The “I’m going to faff about in the middle lane at 50 mph for ages but all of a sudden I *must* change lanes *now*” type.

Yes most of the time this should be able to be dealt with by easing off, but not without getting too close some times hence it’s just easier to admit defeat and brake. It’s exactly this which causes traffic jams to form.

bramling · 19 Feb 2020

cactustwirly said:
So you're saying that cars should be miles apart from each other then?

If the motorway is congested, but still flowing at 70mph, I don't see how it is dangerous to use cruise control.

Personally I think it increases reaction time, and takes away the extra margin that easing off can give.

I like to use cruise control during 50 mph roadworks as it saves a lot of work, but I practically *never* use it at normal speed except if the motorway is almost empty.

On traditional curving UK motorways (in other words almost everything bar the early section of the M1) it will lead to greater fuel consumption and more awkward cornering as curves are best taken by putting down a slight extra amount of power.

I’d say it also increases the boredom factor and leads to the mind wondering, both of which are bad things. Likewise in my view there’s little wrong with some 80-90 mph driving when appropriate as it keeps the mind focussed.

My latest car has a nice feature which is speed inhibit - I can set a cap at which point the engine will cut out, but otherwise I am driving the car. I find this preferable to traditional cruise control as I feel much more in control. It will be overridden if one goes for harsh acceleration to accelerate out of trouble.

Bletchleyite · 19 Feb 2020

bramling said:
Yes most of the time this should be able to be dealt with by easing off, but not without getting too close some times hence it’s just easier to admit defeat and brake. It’s exactly this which causes traffic jams to form.

Indeed, and that is how the anti-congestion features of smart motorways work, by lowering the speed limit so cars can get closer together safely so you don't end up with as much of that kind of braking.

bramling · 19 Feb 2020

Bletchleyite said:
Indeed, and that is how the anti-congestion features of smart motorways work, by lowering the speed limit so cars can get closer together safely so you don't end up with as much of that kind of braking.

In that sense I think the camera enforcement can work against things. It should be quite possible to reduce in steps from 70mph to 40mph without having to touch the brakes, but naturally it only takes one to start a chain reaction.

The idea is sound, but I’m not sure it works in practice thanks to driver behaviour.

It’s a shame it isn’t really feasible to design a system that can enforce a prevention of moving lanes to the right. During congestion a “stay in lane” policy would work well IMO. Obviously you couldn’t seek to stop people moving to the left, but moving to the right is a different matter entirely. Wishful thinking as it’s not really viable.

Bletchleyite · 19 Feb 2020

bramling said:
In that sense I think the camera enforcement can work against things.

I certainly do think, as mentioned above, that it would be better if they were average speed cameras averaged between two gantries, because that way you could just lift off and slowly reduce speed into the limit because if you were still a bit over on passing the gantry you'd not trip that because the average would be near enough.

Domh245 · 19 Feb 2020

bramling said:
I’d say it also increases the boredom factor and leads to the mind wondering, both of which are bad things. Likewise in my view there’s little wrong with some 80-90 mph driving when appropriate as it keeps the mind focussed.

Having gone to a car that does have cruise control from one that doesn't, I'm not sure I'd agree with the mind wandering thing - I'd like to think I'm just as attentive in my new car vs my previous one, and if anything I can brake quicker as my foot is hovering over the brake pedal! I can't say I find it any more boring either, only a lot 'easier', I can get on the motorway, hit a button and then only really have to worry about dealing with traffic and steering. Weirdly enough, I've also noticed it's dropped my propensity to speed right down as well - in my previous car along things like the M40 where there is no continuous enforcement I'd quite happily be cruising along at 80+, but now I'll happily sit at 70 as it's easier to do that than accelerate to the higher speeds, and that's despite going to a car with double the hp for which the performance was a big factor!

bramling · 19 Feb 2020

Bletchleyite said:
I certainly do think, as mentioned above, that it would be better if they were average speed cameras averaged between two gantries, because that way you could just lift off and slowly reduce speed into the limit because if you were still a bit over on passing the gantry you'd not trip that because the average would be near enough.

I’m not sure. In theory yes, but in practice you come back to driver behaviour. It would work fine if everyone stuck to the same speed, but in reality you’ll get people overtaking for long periods with minimal speed differentiation, or the situation where one moves ahead then the other passes then the original one moves ahead again.

All these things happen in the 50 mph roadworks sections which end up creating a stressful (and boring therefore tiring) experience.

By contrast something like the M6 toll is a dream - none of these issues really arise!

bramling · 19 Feb 2020

Domh245 said:
Having gone to a car that does have cruise control from one that doesn't, I'm not sure I'd agree with the mind wandering thing - I'd like to think I'm just as attentive in my new car vs my previous one, and if anything I can brake quicker as my foot is hovering over the brake pedal! I can't say I find it any more boring either, only a lot 'easier', I can get on the motorway, hit a button and then only really have to worry about dealing with traffic and steering. Weirdly enough, I've also noticed it's dropped my propensity to speed right down as well - in my previous car along things like the M40 where there is no continuous enforcement I'd quite happily be cruising along at 80+, but now I'll happily sit at 70 as it's easier to do that than accelerate to the higher speeds, and that's despite going to a car with double the hp for which the performance was a big factor!

Each to their own, however personally I feel safer doing 85 mph conventionally than 70 mph on cruise control.

I’ve had cruise control for 20 years and I daresay I’ve only used it above 60 mph a comparatively small number of times. I find it lovely at slower speeds as it does exactly what you say in avoiding the need to worry about speed, but at high speed on the motorway I really don’t feel overly confortable with it. Of course round here in the overpopulated south-east if one tried to set it to 70 mph on the motorway you’d be lucky to be able to leave it in for more than a few seconds at a time, which kind of defeats the point!

nlogax · 20 Feb 2020

Cruise control is a nightmare to use on most UK roads in my experience. Empty northern or Scottish motorways are fine but anything south of the Lake District or any smart motorway... nope. Utterly pointless unless you're driving at midnight.

In recent years I had a VW with Adaptive Cruise Control. That was great for busy motorways but it would have been even better with an auto box. I'm beginning to think my next car will be an automatic. Either that or I'll have to move way up north!

The Ham · 20 Feb 2020

PG said:
Exactly this!
The driving force (excuse pun) behind smart motorways is money... what price were the lives of those people who have died worth?

Not what the lives are worth, but the UK has set an impact on a death in the economy, which is a bit over £2 million.

If course there's no way of seeing a cash value on life and the above doesn't do that.

The Ham · 20 Feb 2020

Crossover said:
Isn't it an offence (points/fine) to drive under a red X anyway? Or does that only pertain to the closures where the red cross is displayed along with the flashing red lights (also sometimes poorly observed!)

If it's not it should be with a £200 fine and 3 points on a licence for each individual cross you drive through. However if you drive through multiple crosses (one after another) then it ramps up, so 1 is 3 ponts with a £200 fine, 2 is 9 points with £600 fine and 3 is 27 points with £1,800 fine (with any points over 12 then being held over until previous points have expired)

Get the police to publicise a few cases, especially if there's one where someone gone through 2 or 3 in a row and lost their license and people will soon adapt their driving.

Anyone caught doing so more than once who then losses their licence the "hardship" argument should fall in deaf ears as they clearly haven't learnt from their past and it's not like speeding where you could inadvertently go a bit fast. Especially given that there's move across arrows in advance of the crosses.

The Ham · 20 Feb 2020

AndrewE said:
but it is not and they aren't, so these motorways are nowhere near as safe as they could be! Wasn't there some (bad) publicity suggesting that the cameras were checked so infrequently by control-room staff that it might be 20 minutes before they spotted a car stopped in the inside lane? (A function of the number of staff and the number of things they had to do, rather than an allegation of negligence.)

Which is why it should be that there's ANPR monitoring by computers which flag to the operators that a car's missing and that a blanket 40mph military will be introduced automatically in 2 minutes unless there's intervention by an operator or the vehicle is identified before then.

Once the system is fairly stable (i.e. not too many false alarms) you could even consider automatic signs saying "risk of stationary vehicle" after 20 seconds.

If course personally I think that the ideal would be little more than 700m between lay-bys and certainly no more than 1,000m.

Bletchleyite · 20 Feb 2020

The Ham said:
If it's not it should be with a £200 fine and 3 points on a licence for each individual cross you drive through. However if you drive through multiple crosses (one after another) then it ramps up, so 1 is 3 ponts with a £200 fine, 2 is 9 points with £600 fine and 3 is 27 points with £1,800 fine (with any points over 12 then being held over until previous points have expired)

Get the police to publicise a few cases, especially if there's one where someone gone through 2 or 3 in a row and lost their license and people will soon adapt their driving.

Anyone caught doing so more than once who then losses their licence the "hardship" argument should fall in deaf ears as they clearly haven't learnt from their past and it's not like speeding where you could inadvertently go a bit fast. Especially given that there's move across arrows in advance of the crosses.

I believe they just prosecute it as Driving Without Due Care and Attention, or Dangerous Driving, depending on whether they feel they can prove it was done through incompetence/ignorance or wilful stupidity. Same way as they will get you if you use a hands-free phone such that you're not in proper control of your vehicle.

Cowley · 20 Feb 2020

There’s some interesting stuff being discussed here but we’ve strayed quite a long way from the thread topic, so I’ve started a new thread here:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/motorway-driving-habits.200768/

Which is about motorway driving habits...

Hopefully (just like all those cars that you overtook on the motorway twenty minutes earlier yet inexplicably all seem to be right next to you at the lights when you’ve finally pulled off the motorway) the rest of the off topic posts will be along to join us in that thread soon...

Ianno87 · 12 Mar 2020

At the risk/heresy of injecting actual facts into an forum debate, the DfT have published the smart motorways "stocktake" that claims that Smart motorways are, in general (with some exceptions), as safe as, or safer than, conventional motorways: https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/strategic-roads-update-smart-motorways-evidence-stocktake

Following concerns about smart motorway safety, I asked my department to review the evidence and, if needed, bring forward recommendations. Today (12 March 2020) I am publishing that work and taking the action necessary to ensure our roads are as safe as they can be.

Overall, what the evidence shows is that in most ways, smart motorways are as safe as, or safer than, the conventional ones. But not in every way. To ensure we are doing all we can do to improve safety, I am publishing a package of 18 measures. This will allow us to retain the benefits of smart motorways while addressing the concerns that have been identified.

Smart motorways have helped us cope with a 23% rise in traffic since 2000. They save motorists thousands of hours sitting in jams. They reduce the disruption and environmental destruction which would otherwise be needed to widen our busiest roads.

Their growth, however, has not always been well explained, there is not uniformity, and concerns exist over safety.

As part of our work we listened to the families who’ve campaigned on this issue, and I want to pay tribute to them. I’m also grateful to colleagues and groups like the AA and RAC who have pursued this issue and helped us reach this outcome.

Alongside the report, and annexed to it, which will be published on GOV.UK, therefore, I am launching an extended package of measures - an action plan - to raise the bar on smart motorway safety.

Continues on link....

swt_passenger · 12 Mar 2020

Ianno87 said:
At the risk/heresy of injecting actual facts into a forum debate, the DfT have published the smart motorways "stocktake" that claims that Smart motorways are, in general (with some exceptions), as safe as, or safer than, conventional motorways: https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/strategic-roads-update-smart-motorways-evidence-stocktake

I notice within the report that they do explicitly state that the older sections with the “Dynamic” Hard Shoulder running during busy periods will definitely be converted to All Lane Running (ALR), I think people were initially wondering whether they’d be reverted to normal hard shoulders.

Meerkat · 12 Mar 2020

That report is IMO deliberately misleading.
It creates the headline “smart motorways are safer”, which is not at all telling the whole truth.
The facts in the report show that all lane running is more dangerous. It is only the smart bit that is safer, basically the variable speed limits, which you could have with a hard shoulder.

However I still support ALR, but it must have automatic protection of stopped vehicles (which I assumed they already had!). It is slightly less safe, but not unsafe enough to negate the capacity benefits.

edwin_m · 12 Mar 2020

swt_passenger said:
I notice within the report that they do explicitly state that the older sections with the “Dynamic” Hard Shoulder running during busy periods will definitely be converted to All Lane Running (ALR), I think people were initially wondering whether they’d be reverted to normal hard shoulders.

I believe they have to limit to 60mph or less when they bring the hard shoulder into use, possibly because it's narrower. Will they widen it, impose 60mph maximum, or just get rid of the hard shoulder markings and leave the speeds as they are?

swt_passenger · 12 Mar 2020

edwin_m said:
I believe they have to limit to 60mph or less when they bring the hard shoulder into use, possibly because it's narrower. Will they widen it, impose 60mph maximum, or just get rid of the hard shoulder markings and leave the speeds as they are?

Doesn’t go into that sort of detail I’m afraid, but it does mention a target of 2025, so it isn’t going to be quick.

Proposed abandonment of Smart Motorways

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