• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Worst " Bus war"?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
15 Sep 2019
Messages
712
Location
Back in Geordieland!
I was looking at old pictures of Newcastle the other day and a picture came up with a Busways yellow decker and a TWOC LH , took me right back to the battle they had in 1988. I lived on a very contested route (12) and there was a bus every few seconds, or so it seemed. Ended when TWOC was sold to northern then sold to Busways ( I think?) and closed down.

It had been mayhem for a while I have a feeling TWOC might have been linked to TMS?

Anyway, what was the hardest fought Bus war in the UK?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
20,042
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
I was looking at old pictures of Newcastle the other day and a picture came up with a Busways yellow decker and a TWOC LH , took me right back to the battle they had in 1988. I lived on a very contested route (12) and there was a bus every few seconds, or so it seemed. Ended when TWOC was sold to northern then sold to Busways ( I think?) and closed down.

It had been mayhem for a while I have a feeling TWOC might have been linked to TMS?

Anyway, what was the hardest fought Bus war in the UK?

The story on that was that Trimdon Motor Services (TMS) were part of a group that included BlueLine Express (to London) and Zebra Holidays (package coach holidays from North East to the Spanish Costas) as well as Jersey Motor Transport. At deregulation, they decided to expand from their Co Durham bus operations and started to compete on Teesside, mainly against Cleveland Transit who operated exact fare buses (mainly Fleetlines, Leopards and Dominators), opening a depot in Stockton that is still in use (by Arriva) as Teesside Motor Services.

Eventually, they sold the Zebra and BlueLine businesses (the latter to Abbotts of Leeming) to focus on buses, and expanded into Tyne and Wear with Tyne and Wear Omnibus Company (TWOC) with a depot at Saltmeadows in Gateshead. Whilst the original TMS continued to use the Leopard and Tiger buses bought in the late 70s/early 80s, the new TMS and TWOC used a collection of LHs from a variety of sources with Stockton having a lot of late model ones plus some shortlived, thirsty and unreliable Mk2 Nationals. TWOC, as the barrel was being scraped, got some LHs of differing quality (incl some ex Northumbria) plus Leopards ex M&D or Midland Red.

TWOC was perhaps a bit of stretch too far and Busways had begun to fight back against TMS on their traditional Co Durham services under the Favourite name. Hence they were looking to sell and a sale was agreed with Northern. Little did they know that Northern had agreed to sell to Busways and TWOC was immediately closed down (though the identity did live on for a while), Northern retaining the depot (still used as their central works) and TMS very unhappy with that underhand deal.

Trimdon and Teesside MS later sold out to Caldaire Holdings who closed the Trimdon depot and amalgamated the operations into United. The Stockton depot retained the TMS name (think various contractual measures had been done to stop a similar situation to the TWOC sale) and it all eventually became Arriva NE.

As for the worst bus war..... I worked in Darlington in 1993/4.....
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,895
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Probably the ongoing saga of Oxford/Wilmslow Road in Manchester, which in a sensible world would either be a tramway or operated by one operator using high capacity bendy buses with full off-bus ticketing, i.e. basically buses operated as if they were trams (look at how Hamburg operates their almost identical route, which is a converted former tramway).
 

Sandy Drew

Member
Joined
24 Dec 2010
Messages
59
The story on that was that Trimdon Motor Services (TMS) were part of a group that included BlueLine Express (to London) and Zebra Holidays (package coach holidays from North East to the Spanish Costas) as well as Jersey Motor Transport. At deregulation, they decided to expand from their Co Durham bus operations and started to compete on Teesside, mainly against Cleveland Transit who operated exact fare buses (mainly Fleetlines, Leopards and Dominators), opening a depot in Stockton that is still in use (by Arriva) as Teesside Motor Services.

Eventually, they sold the Zebra and BlueLine businesses (the latter to Abbotts of Leeming) to focus on buses, and expanded into Tyne and Wear with Tyne and Wear Omnibus Company (TWOC) with a depot at Saltmeadows in Gateshead. Whilst the original TMS continued to use the Leopard and Tiger buses bought in the late 70s/early 80s, the new TMS and TWOC used a collection of LHs from a variety of sources with Stockton having a lot of late model ones plus some shortlived, thirsty and unreliable Mk2 Nationals. TWOC, as the barrel was being scraped, got some LHs of differing quality (incl some ex Northumbria) plus Leopards ex M&D or Midland Red.

TWOC was perhaps a bit of stretch too far and Busways had begun to fight back against TMS on their traditional Co Durham services under the Favourite name. Hence they were looking to sell and a sale was agreed with Northern. Little did they know that Northern had agreed to sell to Busways and TWOC was immediately closed down (though the identity did live on for a while), Northern retaining the depot (still used as their central works) and TMS very unhappy with that underhand deal.

Trimdon and Teesside MS later sold out to Caldaire Holdings who closed the Trimdon depot and amalgamated the operations into United. The Stockton depot retained the TMS name (think various contractual measures had been done to stop a similar situation to the TWOC sale) and it all eventually became Arriva NE.

As for the worst bus war..... I worked in Darlington in 1993/4.....

Have to admit TGW, I do rather appreciate these trips down memory lane from you - perhaps you could start a series! ;)
 

tbtc

Veteran Member
Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
17,882
Location
Reston City Centre
Sheffield had two periods. The first five years of de-regulation had lots of "breadvans" and other second hand vehicles pressed into service on random routes by any old cowboy - similar to many large cities - but SYT (South Yorkshire Transport - later Mainline, now First) bought a number of them and things calmed down.

But nature abhors a vacuum, and competition came back (just as SYT were going through a court case for abusing their monopoly position). The "worst" era was around 1993/1994/1995 when Sheffield Omnibus competed on pretty much every route they could - it's ridiculous nowadays when you look back and remember that there was an Omnibus service every ten minutes competing with a Mainline service every ten/fifteen minutes on corridors that now only have one bus per hour in total (e.g. the 93/94 from the city centre to Meadowhall via Grimesthorpe, the 17/18 from the city centre to Fox Hill via Hillsborough, the 1/11/21/57/66/67 from the city centre to Stocksbridge via Hillsborough).

Omnibus even ran competing evening services on the 52 (where Yorkshire Terrier were the "daytime" competition to Mainline) - I know that some "newcomers" provide an all-day service when competing with an established operator but I'm not aware of any examples of a "newcomer" providing a commercial evening service in competition with an established operator when that "newcomer" don't even provide the daytime service.

Omnibus had the clever tactic of buying lots of redundant double deckers from Preston, which were coincidently in the traditional navy/cream colours of old Sheffield buses - they were pretty good at identifying gaps in the Mainline network (and sections of route where the incumbent operator went a bit round the houses rather than running direct, or where Mainline served the quieter side of the city centre around the Interchange so Omnibus could run up High Street and be a lot more convenient for passengers).

In those days, the *weekly* ticket price went down to two quid at one point (not single ticket, not daily ticket, I'm talking seven days of travel!), as the two operators fought tooth and nail (the Mainline ticket - I think it was called "red saver" - was only valid on the generally north-south corridor that Omnibus operated on - but still very generous if you lived on those sides of town). There were duplicates, there were unregistered services, there were often spare buses sat at places like Lane Top waiting for the "other" operator's bus to turn up so that they could ensure that they were first to the lucrative stops ahead (e.g. Firth Park, in that example).

Whilst there were other independent operators in Sheffield, nothing got as bad as the Omnibus/Mainline days (most of the post 1990 ones stuck to certain key corridors - e.g. the two main east-west Stagecoach routes - the 52 and 120 - have been operated by their predecessors for thirty years now). Eventually, Omnibus was bought by Yorkshire Traction, along with Andrews, Yorkshire Terrier and South Riding and things became fairly stable - a "death of a thousand cuts" as Tracky tried to rationalise the assortment of routes they'd inherited (culminating in the "Lowedges to Wath via High Green" service 72!) and focus on a few corridors. Also, by the mid '90s, the new-fangled Supertram was taking a huge chunk out of some key corridors, so the days of "bus competition" were replaced by "bus survival", as operators tried to keep viable services.

Wish I'd had a digital camera back then - there were some horribly congested bus stops, superannuated "sheds", mayhem... If I were younger today, I don't think that I'd have got as interested in buses - so bland in comparison.
 

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
20,042
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
Have to admit TGW, I do rather appreciate these trips down memory lane from you - perhaps you could start a series! ;)

I could do an episode on the Darlington bus war and, contrary to Carl's comment, it lasted a long time. The end was swift when it came (as Carl is alluding to) but arguably, it was a protracted battle beginning in 1986, an uneasy peace because a bitter 3 way battle before Mr Souter waded in.
 

Tetchytyke

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Sep 2013
Messages
13,305
Location
Isle of Man
The worst bus war? UK North vs Stagecoach in Manchester. That had everything- punch ups between drivers, weekly tickets for a couple of quid, Traffic Commissioner involvement and, most infamously, the queues of competing buses bringing Manchester city centre (including the trams!) to gridlock. Beverly Bell eventually did for UK North, and rightly so, but I'm still amazed Stagecoach faced no sanction for their behaviour at the worst of it.
 

carlberry

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2014
Messages
3,169
I could do an episode on the Darlington bus war and, contrary to Carl's comment, it lasted a long time. The end was swift when it came (as Carl is alluding to) but arguably, it was a protracted battle beginning in 1986, an uneasy peace because a bitter 3 way battle before Mr Souter waded in.
Yes, I was thinking about the final battle and forgetting about most of the war! Such is the effect of selective memory!
 

deanmachine

Member
Joined
13 Jul 2019
Messages
46
Location
South Tyneside
Yes, I was thinking about the final battle and forgetting about most of the war! Such is the effect of selective memory!

The most frustrating thing about Darlington is that only a few years later Stagecoach pulled out and left Arriva as the only major operator in the town.
 

Statto

Established Member
Joined
8 Feb 2011
Messages
3,217
Location
At home or at the pub
2 former PTE operators, MTL Merseybus/GM Buses war 92-95, it's peak was winter 93/94, MTL rebranded St Helens depot to Lancashire Travel, & operated a depot in Manchester under MTL Manchester brand, GM Buses, set up a depot in Bootle, & Birkenhead, the Birkenhead depot was branded as Birkenhead & District, an outstation of Princess Road depot.

A gentleman's agreement in summer 95, meant that they withdrew from each others areas, apparently MTL owners of Merseybus were doing well in GM area & did a lot of damage to GM Buses, i don't know if anything came to blows, but theres a photo up on flickr of a Lancashire Travel vehicle at Bolton bus station on a 510 being blocked at a stop by a GM buses vehicle blocking it as the LT is at the wrong stand, & GM Buses driver has left their bus to complain to the bus station inspector.
 

DunsBus

Established Member
Joined
12 Jan 2013
Messages
1,433
Location
Duns
The story on that was that Trimdon Motor Services (TMS) were part of a group that included BlueLine Express (to London) and Zebra Holidays (package coach holidays from North East to the Spanish Costas) as well as Jersey Motor Transport. At deregulation, they decided to expand from their Co Durham bus operations and started to compete on Teesside, mainly against Cleveland Transit who operated exact fare buses (mainly Fleetlines, Leopards and Dominators), opening a depot in Stockton that is still in use (by Arriva) as Teesside Motor Services.

Eventually, they sold the Zebra and BlueLine businesses (the latter to Abbotts of Leeming) to focus on buses, and expanded into Tyne and Wear with Tyne and Wear Omnibus Company (TWOC) with a depot at Saltmeadows in Gateshead. Whilst the original TMS continued to use the Leopard and Tiger buses bought in the late 70s/early 80s, the new TMS and TWOC used a collection of LHs from a variety of sources with Stockton having a lot of late model ones plus some shortlived, thirsty and unreliable Mk2 Nationals. TWOC, as the barrel was being scraped, got some LHs of differing quality (incl some ex Northumbria) plus Leopards ex M&D or Midland Red.

TWOC was perhaps a bit of stretch too far and Busways had begun to fight back against TMS on their traditional Co Durham services under the Favourite name. Hence they were looking to sell and a sale was agreed with Northern. Little did they know that Northern had agreed to sell to Busways and TWOC was immediately closed down (though the identity did live on for a while), Northern retaining the depot (still used as their central works) and TMS very unhappy with that underhand deal.

Trimdon and Teesside MS later sold out to Caldaire Holdings who closed the Trimdon depot and amalgamated the operations into United. The Stockton depot retained the TMS name (think various contractual measures had been done to stop a similar situation to the TWOC sale) and it all eventually became Arriva NE.

As for the worst bus war..... I worked in Darlington in 1993/4.....

TWOC also expanded into Sunderland. I remember there was a gap in the services around noon for 75-90 minutes - the services were run from Gateshead and the gap was so that drivers could have their lunch. The Busways response was to run a bus in front of the TWOC ones, and they mirrored the timetable right down to the lunch breaks.
 

NorthOxonian

Established Member
Associate Staff
Buses & Coaches
Joined
5 Jul 2018
Messages
1,487
Location
Oxford/Newcastle
The most frustrating thing about Darlington is that only a few years later Stagecoach pulled out and left Arriva as the only major operator in the town.
Indeed to this day, Darlington is (I believe) the local authority closest to being a monopoly when it comes to bus services. I believe Arriva carry something like 99% of trips (Reading and North East Lincolnshire are just behind at about 97% each).
 

Mwanesh

Member
Joined
14 May 2016
Messages
792
The worst bus war? UK North vs Stagecoach in Manchester. That had everything- punch ups between drivers, weekly tickets for a couple of quid, Traffic Commissioner involvement and, most infamously, the queues of competing buses bringing Manchester city centre (including the trams!) to gridlock. Beverly Bell eventually did for UK North, and rightly so, but I'm still amazed Stagecoach faced no sanction for their behaviour at the worst of it.
I went to Manchester on loan during the bus war. It was funny they never cared how much you cashed in. I ended up spending 4 months there
 
Joined
15 Sep 2019
Messages
712
Location
Back in Geordieland!
Thanks for the contributions and especially TGW, I knew you would know what had gone on.

I have a recollection of a TWOC bus going round the ( pedestrainised) Monument in Newcastle to get in front is a Busways bus, lunacy.

Northumbria had a smaller battle with Premier travel in Blyth, new company formed by former Blyth Northumbria drivers. At one point they had 3 services X1,2 and 3, daytime only on the busier routes. Premier still exists but I think the only do schools and private hire work now.

I vaguely knew some of the drivers who started premier, the nature of bus driving is you know a lot of people on nodding terms. canny lads and I had nowt against them personally, I certainly never raced them. I believe a few of them were killed whilst out cycling by a drink driver, very sad.
 

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
20,042
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
Thanks for the contributions and especially TGW, I knew you would know what had gone on.

I have a recollection of a TWOC bus going round the ( pedestrainised) Monument in Newcastle to get in front is a Busways bus, lunacy.

Northumbria had a smaller battle with Premier travel in Blyth, new company formed by former Blyth Northumbria drivers. At one point they had 3 services X1,2 and 3, daytime only on the busier routes. Premier still exists but I think the only do schools and private hire work now.

I vaguely knew some of the drivers who started premier, the nature of bus driving is you know a lot of people on nodding terms. canny lads and I had nowt against them personally, I certainly never raced them. I believe a few of them were killed whilst out cycling by a drink driver, very sad.

Are you thinking of Target Travel rather than Premier? They operated the Blyth to Newcastle Express routes in competition with Northumbria c.1989 with some all white old Leopards and a couple of VRs. Northumbria competed with them in their own right (X1 and X3) and then moved in some Kentish Bus Nationals painted all white (!) on competing services (EX1). The OFT (as it was then and in a ruling after Target pulled out) stipulated that Northumbria had been predatory. As a consequence, they could not withdraw some of the services and had to maintain fares at a particular discounted level for a number of years.
 

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
20,042
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
The most frustrating thing about Darlington is that only a few years later Stagecoach pulled out and left Arriva as the only major operator in the town.

The final collapse came in November 94 and I think Stagecoach Darlington was divested to Arriva in April 2007. They'd lost most of their schools work to Garnetts and Compass Royston so it was down to about 30 or so Darts. They all passed to Arriva along with the Faverdale depot which is still used (with an adjacent yard) by Arriva.
 
Joined
15 Sep 2019
Messages
712
Location
Back in Geordieland!
Are you thinking of Target Travel rather than Premier? They operated the Blyth to Newcastle Express routes in competition with Northumbria c.1989 with some all white old Leopards and a couple of VRs. Northumbria competed with them in their own right (X1 and X3) and then moved in some Kentish Bus Nationals painted all white (!) on competing services (EX1). The OFT (as it was then and in a ruling after Target pulled out) stipulated that Northumbria had been predatory. As a consequence, they could not withdraw some of the services and had to maintain fares at a particular discounted level for a number of years.
You appear to be right!
 

Andyh82

Established Member
Joined
19 May 2014
Messages
3,538
Probably the ongoing saga of Oxford/Wilmslow Road in Manchester, which in a sensible world would either be a tramway or operated by one operator using high capacity bendy buses with full off-bus ticketing, i.e. basically buses operated as if they were trams (look at how Hamburg operates their almost identical route, which is a converted former tramway).
That bus war is near non existent now. Stagecoach pretty much won when the last remaining independent Finglands were sold.

It’s a far cry from when UK North were competing all over the place with shoddy buses and even shoddier drivers running every few minutes in front of Stagecoach

Edit: I see UK North have already been mentioned.
 

Andyh82

Established Member
Joined
19 May 2014
Messages
3,538
Huddersfield around 1995 was very interesting as you had Yorkshire Blue Bus competing heavilly with Yorkshire Rider and Yorkshire Travel competing heavilly with Yorkshire Traction at the same time.

I remember Huddersfield Bus Station frequently came to almost standstill as all the competing corridors all had the established service, the competition five minutes in front, and then the incumbent running their own competition-buster five minutes in front of that. Some of the frequencies then compared to now are ridiculous.
 

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
20,042
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
You appear to be right!

I spent a lot of time at Haymarket bus station in the late 1980s :lol: arriving on the X50/X70 from Darlington!!!

I might add that after TWOC, there came Welcome Passenger Services with a new fleet of Optare Metroriders and Renault 75s o_O (on a finance agreement) that competed with Busways.

They were bought out by Busways prior to Stagecoach buying them but not before a legal move by Busways who objected to Welcome's quite yellow livery - see original and amended liveries here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/56225...po-yU7at1-oJ9CtX-nMndtH-qD71hw-8Yxu1d-b9A4uD/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/56225...po-yU7at1-oJ9CtX-nMndtH-qD71hw-8Yxu1d-b9A4uD/

Ironically said Renaults were then used in Stagecoach's Darlington operations!

Later on, the people involved in Welcome came back with HMB Buses against Stagecoach who mysteriously decided that market segmentation was a worthwhile experiment with some elderly Magic Bus Atlanteans but elected, once HMB folded, that the experiment wasn't successful ;)
 
Last edited:

Statto

Established Member
Joined
8 Feb 2011
Messages
3,217
Location
At home or at the pub
That bus war is near non existent now. Stagecoach pretty much won when the last remaining independent Finglands were sold.

It’s a far cry from when UK North were competing all over the place with shoddy buses and even shoddier drivers running every few minutes in front of Stagecoach

Edit: I see UK North have already been mentioned.

Funnily enough Finglands were owned by East Yorkshire Motor Services, EYMS sold Finglands to First Manchester, who subsequently sold Queens Road depot to Go Ahead, East Yorkshire Motor Services are now owned by Go Ahead, i think Finglands Wilmslow Road services were transferred to Queens Road depot:E

R Bullock was another operator mostly Wilmslow Road services, they sold the bus division to Stagecoach, still operate coaches, they also operate some School services

Maynes Coaches are still around, the bus division was sold to Stagecoach

Least said about UK North the better, perfect definition of a cowboy operator, the directors ended up with jail time.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top