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Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

Greybeard33

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From another thread:
I've been told today from a very reliable source in Northerns planning team that Liverpool to Crewe will be split from hopefully December possibly May next year. It will return to being Piccadilly to Crewe and Liverpool to Stalybridge. The current Man Vic to Stalybridge will end. Liverpool to Stalybridge to be operated by 319 flex trains (class 769). Training of instructors at Lime St already underway, so not being left to last minute and drivers will maintain competency with empty stock moves to and from Wigan/Allerton in the meantime.
The Liverpool - Crewe and Liverpool - Warrington Bank Quay stoppers currently interwork at Lime Street, to give roughly half hour turnarounds. Assuming that continues, with the Crewe services diverted to Stalybridge, six 769 diagrams will be required (6 hours for the full LIV - SYB - LIV - WBQ - LIV circuit). That would employ all of the Northern 769 fleet, less a couple in maintenance.

During that 6 hour circuit, the 769s would only use diesel for two 15 minute legs, between Victoria and Stalybridge. So fuel capacity would not be an issue!
 
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geoffk

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From another thread:

The Liverpool - Crewe and Liverpool - Warrington Bank Quay stoppers currently interwork at Lime Street, to give roughly half hour turnarounds. Assuming that continues, with the Crewe services diverted to Stalybridge, six 769 diagrams will be required (6 hours for the full LIV - SYB - LIV - WBQ - LIV circuit). That would employ all of the Northern 769 fleet, less a couple in maintenance.

During that 6 hour circuit, the 769s would only use diesel for two 15 minute legs, between Victoria and Stalybridge. So fuel capacity would not be an issue!
There won't be enough 769s to convert both the Southport services AND a Liverpool - Stalybridge.
 
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Greybeard33

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There won't be enough 769s to convert both the Southport services AND a Liverpool - Stalybridge.
Indeed, so I assume that this plan would mean that the Southport to Alderley Edge services would have to go back to DMU working from December.

In any case, even with the current timetable, there are not enough 769s to work the Southport to Stalybridge service as well as the Southport to Alderley Edge. When the eight 769s were ordered, these services were both planned to terminate at Wigan North Western and to interwork. The extension from Wigan to Southport has increased the diagram count by 3.
 

prod_pep

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I sincerely hope this isn't correct. I use the Chat Moss stoppers regularly, and going back to the dismal 319 performance and lousy interiors on all services doesn't appeal in the slightest. What a waste as well keeping DMUs under the wires between Manchester and Alderley Edge, unless Southport too is split from this service.

What on Earth was the point in training all crews at Lime Street to work 323s if they are going to cease running into Liverpool? The 323s and 331s are like chalk and cheese compared with the 319 units (and undoubtedly the 769 conversions): they are vastly superior in every conceivable way.
 

geoffk

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When the eight 769s were ordered, these services were both planned to terminate at Wigan North Western and to interwork. The extension from Wigan to Southport has increased the diagram count by 3.
So why was it done, other than to pacify vocal residents of Southport? There must be vocal residents elsewhere and they often don't get what they want.
 

delt1c

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Sorry if this has already been asked, but could a 319 and 769 work in multiple under the wires?
 

Greybeard33

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So why was it done, other than to pacify vocal residents of Southport? There must be vocal residents elsewhere and they often don't get what they want.
Electrification postponement. Originally the Wigan NW to Alderley Edge and Stalybridge services were planned to be worked by EMUs. Once DMUs/769s were substituted it undermined the argument of no wires to Southport.
 

Ribbleman

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Electrification postponement. Originally the Wigan NW to Alderley Edge and Stalybridge services were planned to be worked by EMUs. Once DMUs/769s were substituted it undermined the argument of no wires to Southport.

The 769s are being employed on Southport-Alderley Edge in order to maintain the maximum level of electric working over the Castlefield corridor whilst retaining the recently restored Southport-Piccadilly link. Northern management confirmed this week that they expect to have 4 units on the service from May, taking over from 150/156/158 formations. Other 769s to be phased in as and when ready.
 

The Ham

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From another thread:

The Liverpool - Crewe and Liverpool - Warrington Bank Quay stoppers currently interwork at Lime Street, to give roughly half hour turnarounds. Assuming that continues, with the Crewe services diverted to Stalybridge, six 769 diagrams will be required (6 hours for the full LIV - SYB - LIV - WBQ - LIV circuit). That would employ all of the Northern 769 fleet, less a couple in maintenance.

During that 6 hour circuit, the 769s would only use diesel for two 15 minute legs, between Victoria and Stalybridge. So fuel capacity would not be an issue!

It would sound like a good route to use battery train rather than a diesel bimodal train.
 

AMD

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In terms of being phased in, week commencing 30th March will be one to watch as we have diagrams with 769 shown as booked traction.
 

CHAPS2034

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The 769s are being employed on Southport-Alderley Edge in order to maintain the maximum level of electric working over the Castlefield corridor whilst retaining the recently restored Southport-Piccadilly link. Northern management confirmed this week that they expect to have 4 units on the service from May, taking over from 150/156/158 formations. Other 769s to be phased in as and when ready.

158s have never operated this service and 156s are now very rare
 

AM9

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Southport to Alderley Edge is quite a slow journey on current timings with an average speed of just 28mph. 110 minutes to do 52 miles.
not a slow as 319s were from St Albans to Sutton, - 37 miles in 96 minutes, just under 24mph.
 

Ribbleman

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158s have never operated this service and 156s are now very rare
158s have been seen recently on this service though are not supposed to be diagrammed as Piccadilly men are apparently not trained on them. 156s are still quite common. I saw a pair together passing Parbold a few days ago and others singly.
 

Llama

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158s haven't been on any Alderley Edge services, if you've seen any at Parbold they've been on Stalybridges or Blackburns. There's not one driver in the company that could take a 158 to Alderley Edge.
 

Grannyjoans

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I've been told today from a very reliable source in Northerns planning team that Liverpool to Crewe will be split from hopefully December possibly May next year. It will return to being Piccadilly to Crewe and Liverpool to Stalybridge. The current Man Vic to Stalybridge will end. Liverpool to Stalybridge to be operated by 319 flex trains (class 769). Training of instructors at Lime St already underway, so not being left to last minute and drivers will maintain competency with empty stock moves to and from Wigan/Allerton in the meantime.

FFS! Thats a big step backwards from the drivers point of view
 

AndrewE

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FFS! Thats a big step backwards from the drivers point of view
They need using somewhere, and just nipping out to Stalybridge and back on diesel looks quite a sensible option. They could have run further under the wires of course, like from somewhere with no wires to somewhere on the Crewe line or Hazel Grove, but it seems that's just too complicated.
 

Mogster

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158s have been seen recently on this service though are not supposed to be diagrammed as Piccadilly men are apparently not trained on them. 156s are still quite common. I saw a pair together passing Parbold a few days ago and others singly.

156s have been like hens teeth since Christmas but have made a reappearance in the last couple of weeks. Since the Pacers were withdrawn it’s been single 150s and ridiculous overcrowding all the way. I’ve never seen a 158 on Southport - Alderley Edge since the service began.
 

PHILIPE

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156s have been like hens teeth since Christmas but have made a reappearance in the last couple of weeks. Since the Pacers were withdrawn it’s been single 150s and ridiculous overcrowding all the way. I’ve never seen a 158 on Southport - Alderley Edge since the service began.


You won't because Manchester Picc crews don't know them
 

Meerkat

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Interesting comment that ROG could need up to 31 if discussions with potential customers already underway come to fruition.
Call me cynical but “potential customer” is a very broad term, and also that statement could be a negotiating tactic - “you want to be at the front of the line for the trains so don’t delay too long....”
 

Brissle Girl

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Call me cynical but “potential customer” is a very broad term, and also that statement could be a negotiating tactic - “you want to be at the front of the line for the trains so don’t delay too long....”
You may be right, although the fact that they have ordered a further 3 before even launching would suggest that their proposition has some traction (if you pardon the pun).
 

notlob.divad

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From another thread:

The Liverpool - Crewe and Liverpool - Warrington Bank Quay stoppers currently interwork at Lime Street, to give roughly half hour turnarounds. Assuming that continues, with the Crewe services diverted to Stalybridge, six 769 diagrams will be required (6 hours for the full LIV - SYB - LIV - WBQ - LIV circuit). That would employ all of the Northern 769 fleet, less a couple in maintenance.

During that 6 hour circuit, the 769s would only use diesel for two 15 minute legs, between Victoria and Stalybridge. So fuel capacity would not be an issue!

If that is the case, and this indicated plan does happen, it seems an incredibly poor use of resources. Northern are really short of DMU capability but have sufficient EMU. Using them on these diagrams will mainly displace EMUs. Only 1 or 2 DMUs will be released for strengthening elsewhere. Using them on the Southport route will clearly release more useful resources.
 

prod_pep

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If that is the case, and this indicated plan does happen, it seems an incredibly poor use of resources. Northern are really short of DMU capability but have sufficient EMU. Using them on these diagrams will mainly displace EMUs. Only 1 or 2 DMUs will be released for strengthening elsewhere. Using them on the Southport route will clearly release more useful resources.

Thinking about this, it makes no sense for the reasons you state. What a total waste of precious DMUs when there are plenty of EMUs and more to come.

Clearly they are going to introduce them on the Southport - Alderley Edge route so use them there for less than a year then haul them off? Presumably going back to DMUs under the wires on a route as long as Manchester Victoria to Alderley Edge as well? If it happens, it is one of the most ludicrous decisions I'll have seen in the railway industry to date - and that's saying something.
 

Greybeard33

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Thinking about this, it makes no sense for the reasons you state. What a total waste of precious DMUs when there are plenty of EMUs and more to come.

Clearly they are going to introduce them on the Southport - Alderley Edge route so use them there for less than a year then haul them off? Presumably going back to DMUs under the wires on a route as long as Manchester Victoria to Alderley Edge as well? If it happens, it is one of the most ludicrous decisions I'll have seen in the railway industry to date - and that's saying something.
Indeed, if correct it does seem somewhat perverse, on the face of it, to switch the 769s on to a route where they will make less use of their diesel capability. Especially considering that the additional ex-WMT 323s will be arriving next year and looking for gainful employment under the wires.

One possible rationale might be that it will reduce the number of drivers and conductors who will need to retain traction knowledge on the 769 micro fleet, once Northern has returned the remaining 319s. Thereby simplifying traincrew diagrams and reducing costs.

And the only alternative option might well be for DMUs to work the new Liverpool - Stalybridge stoppers, which would mean an even higher proportion of running under the wires than using DMUs on Southport - Alderley Edge, plus an inability to keep to the required timings between Lime Street and Ordsall Lane. Arguably the larger the percentage of the route that is under the wires, the greater is the justification for using bi-modes rather than DMUs.

Furthermore, we do not yet know what other, related, timetable changes Northern might be planning for December 2020 / May 2021. Possibly the Southport - Alderley service might be split at Manchester, or rerouted via the unelectrified Atherton line instead of under the wires via Bolton, and/or interworked at Southport with another DMU service for which the 769s would be unsuitable (e.g. to Leeds or Blackburn via Todmorden).
 

prod_pep

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Indeed, if correct it does seem somewhat perverse, on the face of it, to switch the 769s on to a route where they will make less use of their diesel capability. Especially considering that the additional ex-WMT 323s will be arriving next year and looking for gainful employment under the wires.

Indeed. Surely this can't be the plan? It just doesn't make sense.

The point of the 769s ought to be to release DMUs for use elsewhere, something which is desperately needed to increase capacity on diesel-worked services. Using them on EMU services is nonsensical and the only thing it would potentially allow is the rest of the 319 fleet to be withdrawn earlier, before the additional 323s arrive.

Of course, another issue is that 319s struggle to keep to time on the Chat Moss stoppers and are regularly late. The 769s will be even worse in the acceleration department whereas the swifter 323s and 331s keep to time with ease.
 

Ribbleman

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158s haven't been on any Alderley Edge services, if you've seen any at Parbold they've been on Stalybridges or Blackburns. There's not one driver in the company that could take a 158 to Alderley Edge.
I've since been told that it was an isolated incident with a 158 on a Southport-Alderley Edge that got no further than Oxford Road when the error was realised.
 

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