GTR cancellations including not operating from Victoria until 10th Jan

XAM2175 · 13 Jan 2022

Capvermell said:
However it seems people are saying that Network Rail are now doing more signal work on the lines in to Victoria near Clapham Junction due to the lack of train services in to Victoria and I think it has probably been this engineering tail that has been wagging the service provision dog ever since January 4th since otherwise continuing to operate the majority of trains in to London Bridge does not make any logical sense.

Are you ever going to accept that this is untrue, given the number of times you've already been told that NR are simply exploiting what is to them an unusual opportunity and not, in fact, dictating the service provision?

If no, you shouldn't be surprised when people stop wasting their time by trying to help you.

RailUK Forums

Surreytraveller · 13 Jan 2022

Capvermell said:
I would have re-implemented the lockdown timetable that ran for 7 months in 2020 ASAP as that timetable is properly structured to provide a substantially reduced train service on weekdays without leaving stations that need evening rail services on a weekday without any services as the 7 day implementation of a Saturday rail timetable quite clearly does.

There wasn't the resources to plan the service. This is obviously the best timetable to run, but there simply wasn't the resources to plan it

Capvermell · 13 Jan 2022

ashkeba said:
I do not think anyone argues it should not be a lesser priority but there must be a space between lesser priority and a last train at 1725 instead of 2325. That is about a third of the service day cancelled without even a replacement bus. It even makes it impossible to do a 9-5.30 city job and get home after.

Yes that's absolutely the point ashkeba.

Even the Uckfield line that goes through some pretty remote countryside and has some stations with low user numbers still, even now, has an hourly train service on Saturdays until the current 2300 out of London Bridge that probably ran at a time a few minutes different on a regular weekday out of Victoria. If anyone can name me any other stations (than Holmwood, Ockley and Warnham) on the Southern network that are currently only receiving train services until just after 6pm (arriving at the out of London stations) on a working weekday (leaving London Bridge at 1725) because of the quite unreasonable transposition of a Saturday timetable in to the regular weekday service for apparently many weeks ahead then I should be grateful to be given the names of those stations.

And thinking further about this even poor little almost totally forgotten (and surely much luckier still to escape the Beeching Axe than Holmwood and Ockley) Faygate with only a quarter or less of the passenger numbers of Ockley station for some reason has a an every 15 minutes service out of London Bridge (although the majority connect at Three Bridges but some are direct once an hour) in the evening rush hour until the last direct train at 1900 and connecting train at 1915. This is still earlier than one would like but not much earlier than was normally the case for Faygate where most trains between Horsham and Three Bridges simply did not stop and there was only a once every 3 hours service (at least historically pre Thameslink and most Thameslinks still don't stop at Faygate outside the rush-hour). I have no idea at all why Faygate is now being treated so relatively favourably compared to its extremely low passenger numbers but perhaps the developers trying to sell hundreds of houses on various roundabouts nearby are paying for this now very good of level service provision (just about adequate for weekday working commuters) to be retained apart from the lack of trains after 1900.

I am sure if if I do more work I can find similar little used halts on the Southern network (including the East and West Coastway lines) with lower passenger numbers than Ockley but with trains still provided on this Saturday Service (running on a weekday) until a much later time in the evening from London Bridge (either indirectly or via connection). I wouldn't mind a connecting only at Dorking service in the evening for the time being in current circumstances but its the no trains at all after 1725 from London Bridge that I'm making a big fuss about and that is totally unacceptable. Although this comes out of the last train out of London Victoria on the regular Saturday service longstandingly also being totally unacceptable even though a shuttle lockdown service until after 11pm was provided between Dorking and Horsham on last year's COVID full lockdown timetable that ran for over 6 months. I pointed out at the time to Southern's CEO and train planners that this Saturday evening service south of Dorking surely ought to be retained post the full COVID lockdown timetable but unfortunately I was ignored............

Capvermell · 13 Jan 2022

Surreytraveller said:
There wasn't the resources to plan the service. This is obviously the best timetable to run, but there simply wasn't the resources to plan it

The normally out of passenger service from Horsham to London Victoria on Saturdays 0550 service has mysteriously managed to be converted in to a passenger service last week and this week by the train planners after I understand significant lobbying from the Station Manager and other staff at Horsham Station (a supervisor there told me had also been involved in this discussion) about early morning commuters going to work both from Horsham to Dorking, Leatherhead and Epsom and of course from Warnham, Ockley and Holmwood in to Central London. But maddeningly I see that this 0550 train service via Dorking is currently missing on next week's rolled forwards original version of the Saturday service that was only published train planner websites on Tuesday morning this week. However I presume that after repeated lobbying from the Horsham group station manager and/or others with some input over the line that train may be put back in the timetable before next Monday.

So the point is if the 0550 can be put back in to service as a passenger train (its only making use of a train that runs anyway so the most extra resources needed are a train supervisor from Horsham to Dorking) then why can't precisely the same thing happen with the 2255 service from London Bridge to Dorking on this Saturday timetable during the week then that terminates in passenger service at Dorking and runs empty to Horsham (as the 2326 out of London Victoria to Horsham via Dorking on weekdays used to do pre December 2003).

So I feel the train planners are behaving just a tad dogmatically and inflexibly in trying to run only exactly the Saturday train service on weekdays rather than making any very reasonable minor modifications that they can to reflect the fact it is a weekday and that people want to go to London earlier in the day and also come back later. Hence I really feel there is no good reason for not also making the 2255 out of London Bridge to Dorking that runs on to Horsham anyway out of passenger service in to a passenger carrying train and reason whatsoever that the timetable published on Tuesday this week for next week is now trying to do away again with the 0550 service from Horsham up the Dorking line being run as a passenger train (as it has been this week and last week) instead of as an out of service train all the way up to London Bridge.............

Capvermell · 13 Jan 2022

Surreytraveller said:
There wasn't the resources to plan the service. This is obviously the best timetable to run, but there simply wasn't the resources to plan it

Also taking your point on there not being the train planning resources available to put the 2020 full lockdown timetable in operation rather than a Saturday timetable when exactly would you foresee those resources as being likely to become available given that we are now some time on in the future from Tuesday January 4th and so more resources must gradually be available to work on this given that only 10% of staff are off work due to Omicron as I understand it.........

infobleep · 13 Jan 2022

Looking at this another way, if the pre-Christmas timetable had been in operation when they needed to roll over the timetable then that would have been the one that remained in force as there wouldn't have been the planners available to reduce it. As they would be working on the February blockade changes.

It so happens that wasn't the case as there has been engineering works.

Rob Gibson · 13 Jan 2022

ashkeba said:
But the subsidy is available and it is a bit beneficial to towns and cities if it avoids some people from Ockley taking yet more cars into the towns.

Your continue-Beeching approach would likely condemn the railways to a future of managed decline with no growth routes opening up.

I do not think anyone argues it should not be a lesser priority but there must be a space between lesser priority and a last train at 1725 instead of 2325. That is about a third of the service day cancelled without even a replacement bus. It even makes it impossible to do a 9-5.30 city job and get home after.

I don’t want to continue Beeching but the railway around London has to be about high volume flows, this line is the exception that proves the rule with very low numbers and can be considered a lucky accident of operational convenience to still be open. It has had a pretty good service for over 30 years but numbers remain tiny, yes Ockley car park probably can be seen as an extension to Dorking with small net journey time reductions in return for a limited service. It’s likely that some commuters from the area have long driven to Gatwick for the faster, frequent 24/7 service, money is no object for some residents. Anyone who wants to enjoy living in a rural area has to be self sufficient, like it or not that means a car if they want to commute.

The evening trains that ran during lockdown were probably counted as carrying near zero passengers so the reduced crew availability now makes them the obvious choice to cut. Horsham is about the only Southern country depot with regular trains to London Bridge by both routes so their route knowledge is currently in great demand.

JonathanH · 13 Jan 2022

Rob Gibson said:
Horsham is about the only Southern country depot with regular trains to London Bridge by both routes so their route knowledge is currently in great demand.

The driver knowledge thread has London Bridge (via Forest Hill) to East Croydon listed for all locations (although I guess it may not be all drivers at the country locations). There aren't numerous Southern services from Horsham to London Bridge since they transferred to Thameslink.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/different-driver-depot-route-and-traction-cards.205085/

Surreytraveller · 13 Jan 2022

Capvermell said:
Also taking your point on there not being the train planning resources available to put the 2020 full lockdown timetable in operation rather than a Saturday timetable when exactly would you foresee those resources as being likely to become available given that we are now some time on in the future from Tuesday January 4th and so more resources must gradually be available to work on this given that only 10% of staff are off work due to Omicron as I understand it.........

The planners will be doing their day job. There aren't planners sitting around waiting to work on emergency timetables.

JonathanH said:
The driver knowledge thread has London Bridge (via Forest Hill) to East Croydon listed for all locations (although I guess it may not be all drivers at the country locations). There aren't numerous Southern services from Horsham to London Bridge since they transferred to Thameslink.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/different-driver-depot-route-and-traction-cards.205085/

There's a lot of drivers that don't go to London Bridge since the May 2018 timetable change.
Eastbourne don't. Most of Brighton and Barnham don't

Rob Gibson · 13 Jan 2022

JonathanH said:
The driver knowledge thread has London Bridge (via Forest Hill) to East Croydon listed for all locations (although I guess it may not be all drivers at the country locations). There aren't numerous Southern services from Horsham to London Bridge since they transferred to Thameslink.

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/different-driver-depot-route-and-traction-cards.205085/

There are very few SN services to London Bridge from the coast at all so I can’t see how route knowledge can be maintained. Diverted trains were making unadvertised stops at Norwood Jct presumably to pick up a driver to London Bridge assuming coastal drivers are maintaining diversion routes to Victoria.

Surreytraveller · 13 Jan 2022

Rob Gibson said:
There are very few SN services to London Bridge from the coast at all so I can’t see how route knowledge can be maintained. Diverted trains were making unadvertised stops at Norwood Jct presumably to pick up a driver to London Bridge assuming coastal drivers are maintaining diversion routes to Victoria.

The coastal ones that do maintain knowledge work suburban services from East Croydon to London Bridge

Rob Gibson · 13 Jan 2022

Capvermell said:
Yes that's absolutely the point ashkeba.

Even the Uckfield line that goes through some pretty remote countryside and has some stations with low user numbers still, even now, has an hourly train service on Saturdays until the current 2300 out of London Bridge that probably ran at a time a few minutes different on a regular weekday out of Victoria. If anyone can name me any other stations (than Holmwood, Ockley and Warnham) on the Southern network that are currently only receiving train services until just after 6pm (arriving at the out of London stations) on a working weekday (leaving London Bridge at 1725) because of the quite unreasonable transposition of a Saturday timetable in to the regular weekday service for apparently many weeks ahead then I should be grateful to be given the names of those stations.

And thinking further about this even poor little almost totally forgotten (and surely much luckier still to escape the Beeching Axe than Holmwood and Ockley) Faygate with only a quarter or less of the passenger numbers of Ockley station for some reason has a an every 15 minutes service out of London Bridge (although the majority connect at Three Bridges but some are direct once an hour) in the evening rush hour until the last direct train at 1900 and connecting train at 1915. This is still earlier than one would like but not much earlier than was normally the case for Faygate where most trains between Horsham and Three Bridges simply did not stop and there was only a once every 3 hours service (at least historically pre Thameslink and most Thameslinks still don't stop at Faygate outside the rush-hour). I have no idea at all why Faygate is now being treated so relatively favourably compared to its extremely low passenger numbers but perhaps the developers trying to sell hundreds of houses on various roundabouts nearby are paying for this now very good of level service provision (just about adequate for weekday working commuters) to be retained apart from the lack of trains after 1900.

I am sure if if I do more work I can find similar little used halts on the Southern network (including the East and West Coastway lines) with lower passenger numbers than Ockley but with trains still provided on this Saturday Service (running on a weekday) until a much later time in the evening from London Bridge (either indirectly or via connection). I wouldn't mind a connecting only at Dorking service in the evening for the time being in current circumstances but its the no trains at all after 1725 from London Bridge that I'm making a big fuss about and that is totally unacceptable. Although this comes out of the last train out of London Victoria on the regular Saturday service longstandingly also being totally unacceptable even though a shuttle lockdown service until after 11pm was provided between Dorking and Horsham on last year's COVID full lockdown timetable that ran for over 6 months. I pointed out at the time to Southern's CEO and train planners that this Saturday evening service south of Dorking surely ought to be retained post the full COVID lockdown timetable but unfortunately I was ignored............

Faygate is served by trains that would be running to Horsham anyway, there’s no point calling off peak as no one was using them and there’s a good bus service on the main road. Same for west Coastway though evening trains from Brighton were cut right back years ago, have to change at Hove onto London trains leaving the halts with little service.

Capvermell · 13 Jan 2022

infobleep said:
Looking at this another way, if the pre-Christmas timetable had been in operation when they needed to roll over the timetable then that would have been the one that remained in force as there wouldn't have been the planners available to reduce it. As they would be working on the February blockade changes.

That's quite obviously logically not the case as the whole reason the Christmas Week timetable was rolled over was mainly because Omicron absences meant there weren't enough train crew (drivers, guards and supervisors) available to run the normal service that was running in the week before xmas. There wasn't just a shortage of train planning staff due to Omicron infection in Christmas Week and/or in the first week of the New Year.

So they absolutely couldn't run the train timetable in effect in the week before Christmas in the New Year (as previously planned) due to the lack of train drivers and train supervisors as otherwise they would have simply returned to the normal pre Christmas weekday timetable that was automatically scheduled in the system to take effect from 4th January onwards.

Even accepting all of that and the need to re-roster crews (which also had to happen to run on the Christmas Week timetable for another week) surely after a couple of weeks (say on January 17th) they could have returned to the full COVID lockdown period timetable of 2020 that was a much more sensible timetable to cover weekday evenings and also accommodated the lack of train crew.

As the 2020 lockdown timetable and associated routing diagrams were clearly all on file it can't have been that massive a task to simply reuse most of that information to reintroduce the main lockdown timetable.

Class 466 · 13 Jan 2022

Capvermell said:
But not of course services from Dorking to Horsham even though Arun Valley services all go through Horsham where services to London via Leatherhead, Epsom and Sutton start and even though once upon a time fast services from Bognor used to travel up the Dorking to Horsham line................

Leaving the section of line from Dorking to Horsham with no train service out of London at all after the 1725 on a weekday is completely and utterly unreasonable.

Other lines are merely experiencing less service frequency and diversion to London Bridge as the London terminus but not not no weekday evening service whatsoever after the 1725 service from London Bridge. So with that being so why aren't services to Horsham via Dorking a priority for the earliest possible restoration to the normal service pattern and why does Southern and/or the DfT not also have to pay our consequential losses in having to travel by taxi instead for as long as the normal weekday service pattern with evening train services is not put back in place.

With respect, the Arun Valley services connect Hosham & Gatwick to Clapham & Victoria so are going to be treated as a higher priority by them than Horsham to Dorking, It's just logic. One's a busy mainline service, the other is well, quiet. I'm sure Horsham to Dorking will get it's full service back in good time.

westcoaster · 13 Jan 2022

Capvermell said:
So the point is if the 0550 can be put back in to service as a passenger train (its only making use of a train that runs anyway so the most extra resources needed are a train supervisor from Horsham to Dorking) then why can't precisely the same thing happen with the 2255 service from London Bridge to Dorking on this Saturday timetable during the week then that terminates in passenger service at Dorking and runs empty to Horsham (as the 2326 out of London Victoria to Horsham via Dorking on weekdays used to do pre December 2003).

Two things
1. Iirc you would need to source an OBS to run south to Horsham.

2. By making the extra stops you would be increasing the drivers hours. Which would mean you would need to amend the driving turn by extending their hours.

Capvermell · 13 Jan 2022

Class 466 said:
With respect, the Arun Valley services connect Hosham & Gatwick to Clapham & Victoria so are going to be treated as a higher priority by them than Horsham to Dorking, It's just logic. One's a busy mainline service, the other is well, quiet. I'm sure Horsham to Dorking will get it's full service back in good time.

Horsham is already connected to London by two Thameslink trains an hour too as well as the two Southern services so I'm sure it would be tolerable to have one of those four trains an hour from Horsham travel up the Dorking line instead.

Gatwick Airport definitely doesn't need that one extra train an hour to have an adequate connection to London, especially given the several Brighton Main Line services an hour that also call there plus up to four Gatwick Express services an hour on top.......

Surreytraveller · 13 Jan 2022

westcoaster said:
Two things
1. Iirc you would need to source an OBS to run south to Horsham.

2. By making the extra stops you would be increasing the drivers hours. Which would mean you would need to amend the driving turn by extending their hours.

Indeed, the one in the morning has to be brought out the sidings earlier by a different driver to allow it to run in passenger service as it has to depart Horsham earlier than it would if running empty

Capvermell · 13 Jan 2022

westcoaster said:
Two things
1. Iirc you would need to source an OBS to run south to Horsham.

The journey takes only 20 minutes each way and I'm only talking about just one train that already runs in the evening so people aren't left with no train home from London Bridge after the 1725 service, a service that should always have been later even on a Saturday timetable. In fact this whole dialogue is only necessary because of the quite absurdly early end of services to Horsham via Dorking on a Saturday and that being transposed on to weekdays.

westcoaster said:
2. By making the extra stops you would be increasing the drivers hours. Which would mean you would need to amend the driving turn by extending their hours.

It takes 5 minutes longer (20 minutes instead of 15 minutes) to run as a stopping passenger service instead of non stop and could even be quicker than that on the last train as the service is normally booked as Set Down Only so it doesn't have to stick to the timetabled stop times south of Dorking and could omit stops entirely that the Train Supervisor ascertains no on board customer wants to travel to when the train leaves Dorking.

A modification was made this week and last week to bring the first 0550 non passenger service train in to service after lobbying by Horsham Station staff/management (although the timetable planners seem to have fotgotten about that on the timetabled published on Tuesday for next week until they get lobbied again) about working day passengers so why can't the same thing happen on the last passenger train of the day, especially when that train already runs in passenger service as far as Dorking. In fact that's also a permanent issue on Saturday evenings too outside this Omicron infection surge period.......

Capvermell · 13 Jan 2022

westcoaster said:
Two things
1. Iirc you would need to source an OBS to run south to Horsham.

Correction you need an On Board Supervisor to run south of Dorking through to Horsham (not south of Horsham) due to some interpetation of safety rules (at least by Southern) that says DOO operation isn't allowed on DOO capable trains at unmanned stations that didn't already have DOO services in place before a certain specific date in the past. I have been told by other train industry experts present in this forum that this is why DOO operation without an OBS is possible at Boxhill & Westhumble but not at Holmwood, Ockley and Warnham.

Capvermell · 13 Jan 2022

Capvermell said:
Correction you need an On Board Supervisor to run south of Dorking through to Horsham (not south of Horsham) due to some interpetation of safety rules (at least by Southern) that says DOO operation isn't allowed on DOO capable trains at unmanned stations that didn't already have DOO services in place before a certain specific date in the past. I have been told by other train industry experts present in this forum that this is why DOO operation without an OBS is possible at Boxhill & Westhumble but not at Holmwood, Ockley and Warnham.

My mistake as I thought you said you need an OBS to run South of Horsham when you in fact correctly said you need one to run through to Horsham due to absurd rules that if DOO was not in operation by a certain date at a station you still have to have an OBS even when the train and station are DOO capable. This is why Boxhil & Westhumble has DOO operation but Holmwood, Ockley & Warnham stations don't. Or at least so various industry experts who post here in this forum tell me is the case.

Jan Mayen · 13 Jan 2022

There was a train from Victoria to Littlehampton this morning at 0914!

I wonder if this was diverted from London bridge for some reason.

Nicholas Lewis · 13 Jan 2022

Capvermell said:
However it seems people are saying that Network Rail are now doing more signal work on the lines in to Victoria near Clapham Junction due to the lack of train services in to Victoria and I think it has probably been this engineering tail that has been wagging the service provision dog ever since January 4th since otherwise continuing to operate the majority of trains in to London Bridge does not make any logical sense.

If the operator chooses not to run trains then its wholly incumbent on NR and its supply chain to see if it can make use of extended access and if it can the opportunity should be taken. This helps to derisk a project to ensure its both delivered on schedule and cost and avoid any short notice requests for additional access to deal with slippage.

I would expect them to release any access in the future that's not required if they've been able to accelerate works but rarely happens and appreciate unless its months in advance operators generally can't take advantage of it anyhow.

zwk500 · 13 Jan 2022

Nicholas Lewis said:
If the operator chooses not to run trains then its wholly incumbent on NR and its supply chain to see if it can make use of extended access and if it can the opportunity should be taken. This helps to derisk a project to ensure its both delivered on schedule and cost and avoid any short notice requests for additional access to deal with slippage.

I would expect them to release any access in the future that's not required if they've been able to accelerate works but rarely happens and appreciate unless its months in advance operators generally can't take advantage of it anyhow.

Network rail only did some small items of snagging work in the additional time such as scrap removal, vegetation control and Graffiti removal. It would have been too late to accelerate any items planned for significant blockages by the time GTR realised they needed to roll the timetable over.

A very productive use made of some surprise extra time, but not anything that could advance works already in the pipeline.

Capvermell · 13 Jan 2022

Only 5% of staff currently absent due to Omicron according to yesterday's news item at ww.letsrecycle.com/news/omicron-pushes-absence-rates-to-near-5-larac-finds/

I really don't see why 5% of rail staff absent to provide the regular timetabled service couldn't have been covered by staff not off sick being offered overtime to work longer hours or on normal rest days or leave days. This Saturday only timetable for multiple weeks on weekdays on the excuse of it being far too difficult to change back from the temporary 1 week only Christmas Week timetable in to London Bridge to the regular service pattern in to London Victoria is surely a complete and utter over reaction.

Of course it may be that staff absences in the rail industry are much higher than the average given that they won't be losing extra sales based related pay provided in some industries and it probably takes pretty persistent repeated sickness absence in the rail industry to incur disciplinary action. Or may be COVID staff absences are higher because travelling on trains in to Central London presents a much higher risk of COVID infection than other forms of employment?

Capvermell · 13 Jan 2022

Jan Mayen said:
There was a train from Victoria to Littlehampton this morning at 0914!

I wonder if this was diverted from London bridge for some reason.

This train is not shown at www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/simple/gb-nr:VIC/2022-01-13/0900

Rob Gibson · 13 Jan 2022

infobleep said:
Looking at this another way, if the pre-Christmas timetable had been in operation when they needed to roll over the timetable then that would have been the one that remained in force as there wouldn't have been the planners available to reduce it. As they would be working on the February blockade changes.

It so happens that wasn't the case as there has been engineering works.

Southern is unique in being able to run all routes out of London Bridge with a 4 track line for long distance services, it was chance that Victoria was closed for engineering until the 3rd so a revised timetable was in place that matched crew availability, I guess Victoria drivers were being used as spare cover at other London depots. Otherwise they would presumably have implemented a Saturday service with multiple short notice cancellations. Also the timetable changed in mid December to reinstate some services notably Gatwick Express so an emergency timetable had to be worked up from the new base timetable including interactions with adjoining TOCs and altered freight services.

duncombec · 13 Jan 2022

The key to all of this lies in the train planning; that much has been determined as the cause many times over and isn't really open to discussion any more, no matter how some posters (and commentators elsewhere) may like to think otherwise.

It's the sheer complexities of train planning that interests me here, which seems to be vastly more complicated than bus scheduling, where almost everything will return to the same location overnight, with only one crew member to worry about at a time (although it may be two or three over the course of the day), no need to worry about any other road users timetable and by and large, as long as they have a map not much else.

I'd be delighted if people who actually know about these things would correct me, but what I'm picking up about trains, and why there is no such thing as "just run here" is that the following things need to be taken into account:

- Diagrams for each particular train (which may have additional complexity if units divide/join en route or for peak strengthening, and may not go back to the same depot as they started from)
- Diagrams for each particular driver
- Diagrams for each particular guard/conductor/On Board Supervisor (which are unlikely to be the same pattern as the driver, meaning where both are required, two separate diagrams have to be taken into account).

Of those, the train, driver and "second person where necessary" all have to be suitable for the particular stretch of line: merely having a spare driver doesn't necessarily mean they can fill a gap in the rota "because they are there."

These patterns may also have to take into account the workings of another company, which will also be subject to the same constraints, and may not be able to make the small tweak to their timetable to match the small tweak you wish to make to yours. There are also "annoying" other things such as freight paths, which may or may not be used.

There is also the need to take into account engineering work - unlike roadworks, or even road closures, where it is usually fairly easy to take the appropriate diversions, it's not so easy to divert a train (especially where you need to take the route knowledge into account).

Units, drivers and "second persons" all have to be suitable for the relevant stretches of line, which may include operational requirements (e.g. DOO/DCO), line speed, selective door opening, unit lengths to avoid fouling crossings or junctions at stations, etc.

Then, to top this all off, in an ideal world you have some regularity for the customer, even in times of disruption, trying to balance things out on a fairly even spacing for each service pattern (even if the timetable as a whole may not be even) - it's not just a case of moving the xx01 by two minutes, but also the xx31 to so you don't have a 28/32 pattern, and the xx31 has a clash that the xx01 doesn't.

I guess there could also be effects on station opening times and staff, especially late evening? (When that "just" 5 minutes may affect finishing or locking up times?)

Anything I've missed?

I have to say, I hadn't realised there was quite so much additional work that went into train planning compared to other "logistics" situations. It's also clear why you can't just drag someone out of the finance department and given them a crash course in the scheduling software (For the avoidance of doubt I'm being facetious with this suggestion; not actually thinking anyone has done that).

(Mods: No concerns if you want to split this off into a new topic or add it to an existing one if it exists. I posted it here as there appears to be some misunderstanding of what is/was involved, and I'm keen to know more about it in relation to this topic as well as more generally).

Bald Rick · 13 Jan 2022

Capvermell said:
Only 5% of staff currently absent due to Omicron according to yesterday's news item at ww.letsrecycle.com/news/omicron-pushes-absence-rates-to-near-5-larac-finds/

how many at GTR? And what effect has it had on driver training?

Surreytraveller · 13 Jan 2022

duncombec said:
The key to all of this lies in the train planning; that much has been determined as the cause many times over and isn't really open to discussion any more, no matter how some posters (and commentators elsewhere) may like to think otherwise.

It's the sheer complexities of train planning that interests me here, which seems to be vastly more complicated than bus scheduling, where almost everything will return to the same location overnight, with only one crew member to worry about at a time (although it may be two or three over the course of the day), no need to worry about any other road users timetable and by and large, as long as they have a map not much else.

I'd be delighted if people who actually know about these things would correct me, but what I'm picking up about trains, and why there is no such thing as "just run here" is that the following things need to be taken into account:

- Diagrams for each particular train (which may have additional complexity if units divide/join en route or for peak strengthening, and may not go back to the same depot as they started from)
- Diagrams for each particular driver
- Diagrams for each particular guard/conductor/On Board Supervisor (which are unlikely to be the same pattern as the driver, meaning where both are required, two separate diagrams have to be taken into account).

Of those, the train, driver and "second person where necessary" all have to be suitable for the particular stretch of line: merely having a spare driver doesn't necessarily mean they can fill a gap in the rota "because they are there."

These patterns may also have to take into account the workings of another company, which will also be subject to the same constraints, and may not be able to make the small tweak to their timetable to match the small tweak you wish to make to yours. There are also "annoying" other things such as freight paths, which may or may not be used.

There is also the need to take into account engineering work - unlike roadworks, or even road closures, where it is usually fairly easy to take the appropriate diversions, it's not so easy to divert a train (especially where you need to take the route knowledge into account).

Units, drivers and "second persons" all have to be suitable for the relevant stretches of line, which may include operational requirements (e.g. DOO/DCO), line speed, selective door opening, unit lengths to avoid fouling crossings or junctions at stations, etc.

Then, to top this all off, in an ideal world you have some regularity for the customer, even in times of disruption, trying to balance things out on a fairly even spacing for each service pattern (even if the timetable as a whole may not be even) - it's not just a case of moving the xx01 by two minutes, but also the xx31 to so you don't have a 28/32 pattern, and the xx31 has a clash that the xx01 doesn't.

I guess there could also be effects on station opening times and staff, especially late evening? (When that "just" 5 minutes may affect finishing or locking up times?)

Anything I've missed?

I have to say, I hadn't realised there was quite so much additional work that went into train planning compared to other "logistics" situations. It's also clear why you can't just drag someone out of the finance department and given them a crash course in the scheduling software (For the avoidance of doubt I'm being facetious with this suggestion; not actually thinking anyone has done that).

(Mods: No concerns if you want to split this off into a new topic or add it to an existing one if it exists. I posted it here as there appears to be some misunderstanding of what is/was involved, and I'm keen to know more about it in relation to this topic as well as more generally).

Another issue is the fact that a timetable that was only going to be used for nine days over the Christmas period that has been extended, is maintenance diagrams for the units. Maintenance has also been thrown out of schedule, as unlike buses, trains don't all end up at a depot at the end of the day

Bald Rick said:
how many at GTR? And what effect has it had on driver training?

Driver training, shortages of staff in depots to do maintenance, shortage of staff elsewhere

Bald Rick · 13 Jan 2022

Surreytraveller said:
Driver training, shortages of staff in depots to do maintenance, shortage of staff elsewhere

oh I know!
my quote was to query what relevance an average absence rate for recycling operatives has for drivers, train planners, maintenance and resourcing staff in GTR.

GTR cancellations including not operating from Victoria until 10th Jan

Established Member

RailUK Forums

On Moderation

On Moderation

On Moderation

On Moderation

Veteran Member

Member

Veteran Member

On Moderation

Member

On Moderation

Member

On Moderation

Established Member

Established Member

On Moderation

On Moderation

On Moderation

On Moderation

On Moderation

Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

On Moderation

On Moderation

Member

Member

Veteran Member

On Moderation

Veteran Member