Voyagers could be the best current train

Kneedown · 30 Mar 2022

Bletchleyite said:
Above the solebar they are pretty decent apart from the wobbly seats/tables and slightly iffy ride. Below it, they are unreliable. That's why they're disliked.

I don't dislike the 180's, in fact I prefer them to Meridians as a Driver. They do need driving with a lot more care though. If I have a complaint about them, it's that we don't have enough of them. With two in traffic, and one undergoing daytime maintenence, it's infuriatingly difficult to train Drivers on them as it's hard to get a pair to practice coupling and uncoupling. We have a sizeable backlog of Drivers who haven't completed the course for the want a chance to couple. It's going that way with the 360s too though, and there's a lot more of them.

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Wyrleybart · 30 Mar 2022

Kneedown said:
I don't dislike the 180's, in fact I prefer them to Meridians as a Driver. They do need driving with a lot more care though. If I have a complaint about them, it's that we don't have enough of them. With two in traffic, and one undergoing daytime maintenence, it's infuriatingly difficult to train Drivers on them as it's hard to get a pair to practice coupling and uncoupling. We have a sizeable backlog of Drivers who haven't completed the course for the want a chance to couple. It's going that way with the 360s too though, and there's a lot more of them.

With respect there are four at EMR, and admittedly I haven't looked for a fortnight but when was the last time there was more than one in traffic, meaning there should still be three in Etches Park somewhere.

Snow1964 · 30 Mar 2022

Think my daughter would disagree about voyagers being best train

3rd journey on them today, all 3 of them delayed due to train faults
I realise a sample of 3 is unrealistic but 100% causing her to miss connections thus making journey over hour late at destination for third time.

Today it was 13:38 from Derby with door fault at Birmingham and got held outside Gloucester until 2 minutes after her connection to Wiltshire had departed, so extra hours wait for next train.

greyman42 · 30 Mar 2022

Snow1964 said:
Think my daughter would disagree about voyagers being best train

3rd journey on them today, all 3 of them delayed due to train faults
I realise a sample of 3 is unrealistic but 100% causing her to miss connections thus making journey over hour late at destination for third time.

Today it was 13:38 with door fault at Birmingham and got held outside Gloucester until 2 minutes after her connection to Wiltshire had departed, so extra hours wait for next train.

She has been very unlucky, the Voyagers are usually very reliable.

Wolfie said:
... and make it difficult for anyone with mobility issues not to mention being seriously problematic in the event of a crash. Antediluvian old crap. Good riddance.

Pros and cons then.

supervc-10 · 30 Mar 2022

Having done Manchester -> Newcastle -> Edinburgh on a TPE 802 and then LNER 801, got to say they're lightyears ahead of the Voyager. The seats aren't great, but other than that, no complaints.

A Voyager though is too short, too dirty (both emissions wise and the interiors of the XC units) and too cramped. I'm a big guy- 6'2 and 16.5 stone broad shouldered rugby player/weightlifter. I find Pendolinos and Voyagers far too cramped width wise, whereas my husband (similar build although slightly shorter) and I were able to fit into the 'narrow' windowless pair of seats without too much issue on the LNER unit as it was full and standing. It wasn't luxurious, but we certainly don't fit together on a Pendolino if there's a window pillar and I don't think a Voyager would be much better.

Kneedown · 30 Mar 2022

Wyrleybart said:
With respect there are four at EMR, and admittedly I haven't looked for a fortnight but when was the last time there was more than one in traffic, meaning there should still be three in Etches Park somewhere.

Not very often there are three on Etches. Heavy maintenance is done at Crofton so even if only one is in traffic, it's still pot luck if you can get a pair to couple.

voyagerdude220 · 31 Mar 2022

Snow1964 said:
Think my daughter would disagree about voyagers being best train

3rd journey on them today, all 3 of them delayed due to train faults
I realise a sample of 3 is unrealistic but 100% causing her to miss connections thus making journey over hour late at destination for third time.

Today it was 13:38 with door fault at Birmingham and got held outside Gloucester until 2 minutes after her connection to Wiltshire had departed, so extra hours wait for next train.

I can't see any delays down to a fault on a Voyager yesterday- I'm assuming trains were 13:38 from Birmingham International to Manchester Picc and 14:12 Birmingham New Street to Plymouth. The 14:12 was delayed twice yesterday between Birmingham and Cheltenham by other late running services.

Snow1964 · 31 Mar 2022

voyagerdude220 said:
I can't see any delays down to a fault on a Voyager yesterday- I'm assuming trains were 13:38 from Birmingham International to Manchester Picc and 14:12 Birmingham New Street to Plymouth. The 14:12 was delayed twice yesterday between Birmingham and Cheltenham by other late running services.

Sorry 13:38 from Derby (which I think is a Nottingham - Cardiff service), the door problems was what was announced at Birmingham to explain long station stop there. The delay outside Gloucester was her connecting train already in same platform.

I understand quite a few people had to wait hour at Gloucester for next train, as The late running XC train waited until connections had left. The connection is a GWR turbo which runs a 4+ hour journey from Worcester to Weymouth, not exactly an ideal long distance train either.

43096 · 31 Mar 2022

Snow1964 said:
Sorry 13:38 from Derby (which I think is a Nottingham - Cardiff service), the door problems was what was announced at Birmingham to explain long station stop there. The delay outside Gloucester was her connecting train already in same platform.

I understand quite a few people had to wait hour at Gloucester for next train, as The late running XC train waited until connections had left.

RTT says it was a Turbostar, not a Voyager.

Jozhua · 4 Apr 2022

seagull said:
I still remember the very first time I stepped onto a Voyager back in 2002, and thought how "narrow gauge" it seemed inside, very cramped.
The lovely burning smell you get inside the saloon after braking for a station from 125mph is another unforgettable experience, too.

Oh no, that is probably one setting on fire

- doesn't take much!

greyman42 said:
You cannot expect seats to be designed for people with spinal issues.

I mean to be fair, that is a decent proportion of the population! The human spine is almost as badly designed as the Voyager

Wolfie · 4 Apr 2022

Jozhua said:
Oh no, that is probably one setting on fire - doesn't take much!

Methinks that you are confusing class 22x and class 180....

Jozhua said:
I mean to be fair, that is a decent proportion of the population! The human spine is almost as badly designed as the Voyager

The human spine never caught up with us walking upright on two legs.

GS250 · 4 Apr 2022

The exile said:
First Scotrail 170 for a very long time yesterday - now that’s what seats should be like!

Yep....or the Chiltern 168s. Always a pleasant surprise when one turns up on the via Amersham line. Very comfy and always rather reluctant to leave the train!

I think the Voyagers got off to a bad start with the now laughable 'Operation Princess'. It wasn't just the enthusiast fraternity that were critical of the change either. The national media even reported on the overcrowding and lack of reliability of the overly ambitious new timetable. I recall at the time...there was plenty of defiant enthusiast talk of a handful of class 47s being prepared to haul rakes of mk2's as an emergency measure to mitigate against the fiasco that was OP. Instead....didn't Virgin pull some destinations so it could strengthen the busiest services with two sets? I suppose there was an element of truth in this as I recall class 67's hauling 10-11 mk2's on some busy summer workings in 2004.

Voyagers have some good points. I think it's coach D on the WCML that has mainly table seats and engines turned off? Have to admit I was actually surprised at how good this particular vehicle was to travel in considering the criticism that these units had attracted.

Halish Railway · 4 Apr 2022

GS250 said:
Voyagers have some good points. I think it's coach D on the WCML that has mainly table seats and engines turned off? Have to admit I was actually surprised at how good this particular vehicle was to travel in considering the criticism that these units had attracted.

I think that it was by chance that you went in Coach D with the engines off. When I’ve been in that coach the engines were definitely on.

CharlieSpotted · 4 Apr 2022

Had a trip to Cheltenham on the weekend and was delighted to get a HST on the way there - so big and roomy and comfortable and quiet - and then the opposite of delighted to get a Voyager on the way back. Cramped, rattly, beaten up and tired, the PIS didn't work, the reservations didn't work, the internal door in the carriage I was in barely worked, the vestibule stunk...

I do think it's mostly the internal "spec" of the Voyagers that's the problem, and the CrossCountry ones are notably worse than the Avanti ones, but they're my least favourite train to travel on. The fact that I have had far too many journeys on the Birmingham - Manchester service which were rammed to the gills, and for which they are clearly, totally, ridiculously unsuitable doesn't help matters.

Mogz · 4 Apr 2022

I certainly agree with the sentiment that Voyagers COULD be a great train.

With a little improvement:

- About 2” more leg room in the airline seats.
- 8 window-aligned tables per carriage.
- A more consistent catering offering.
- Longer sets.

and if they were feeling generous:

A couple of DB-style family compartments for travelling with errant children (I have two).

The 222s showed just what potential these carriages had. As it is, VT and XC designated them as sardine expresses.

The seats themselves are actually very comfortable when combined with decent leg-room and the windows are nice and big too.

Such potential…

GS250 · 4 Apr 2022

Halish Railway said:
I think that it was by chance that you went in Coach D with the engines off. When I’ve been in that coach the engines were definitely on.

Too good to be true then!

Jozhua · 4 Apr 2022

Wolfie said:
The human spine never caught up with us walking upright on two legs.

Just like cross country never caught up with an increase in ridership

CharlieSpotted said:
Had a trip to Cheltenham on the weekend and was delighted to get a HST on the way there - so big and roomy and comfortable and quiet - and then the opposite of delighted to get a Voyager on the way back. Cramped, rattly, beaten up and tired, the PIS didn't work, the reservations didn't work, the internal door in the carriage I was in barely worked, the vestibule stunk...

I do think it's mostly the internal "spec" of the Voyagers that's the problem, and the CrossCountry ones are notably worse than the Avanti ones, but they're my least favourite train to travel on. The fact that I have had far too many journeys on the Birmingham - Manchester service which were rammed to the gills, and for which they are clearly, totally, ridiculously unsuitable doesn't help matters.

To be honest, they should just run an electric "shuttle" service between Manchester and Birmingham, then free up Voyagers for other parts of the country.

Shame that a load of Class 86s and MK4s didn't recently become available that could have been used for that...

33117 · 4 Apr 2022

Voyagers really aren't that good, for instance what numpty designed a train with an aircon unit next to a bog?!!! They quite often stink.

Avanti have at least refurbished their voyager fleet whereas crosscountry haven't bothered yet & their really looking scruffy now.

Railperf · 5 Apr 2022

To me it seems the almost perfect DMU would have been a Class 180 saloon above buffer line connected to the Class 222 mechanicals below the buffer line.

Bletchleyite · 5 Apr 2022

Railperf said:
To me it seems the almost perfect DMU would have been a Class 180 saloon above buffer line connected to the Class 222 mechanicals below the buffer line.

It does seem so. Though without the floating floor so the seats and tables can be bolted to the wall, and with larger luggage racks (they're too small on 180s too).

For bonus points, add a pantograph and transformer. Though that's getting dangerously close to inventing the 80x.

Ken H · 5 Apr 2022

Jozhua said:
Just like cross country never caught up with an increase in ridership

To be honest, they should just run an electric "shuttle" service between Manchester and Birmingham, then free up Voyagers for other parts of the country.

Shame that a load of Class 86s and MK4s didn't recently become available that could have been used for that...

some nicely tarted up 110mph Cl 350's would do the job. Double units at peak times. I have done Brum - Liverpool in them and they were good.

Wolfie · 5 Apr 2022

Railperf said:
To me it seems the almost perfect DMU would have been a Class 180 saloon above buffer line connected to the Class 222 mechanicals below the buffer line.

Just as long as Alstom didn't put them together...

Bletchleyite · 5 Apr 2022

Wolfie said:
Just as long as Alstom didn't put them together...

I'd say the (Alstom) Pendolino is a far higher build-quality train than the Voyager, to be honest.

Wolfie · 5 Apr 2022

Bletchleyite said:
I'd say the (Alstom) Pendolino is a far higher build-quality train than the Voyager, to be honest.

I'd agree. Sadly the (Alstom) Class 180 definitely is not.

Bletchleyite · 5 Apr 2022

Wolfie said:
I'd agree. Sadly the (Alstom) Class 180 definitely is not.

I guess that the Pendolino is unusual in very much *not* being built down to a price, it was a premium product and purchased as such. Certainly Standard is "cram 'em in" to try to recoup some of that (though 1st is absolutely excellent), but the actual train has not made very many compromises at all in quality terms.

RailWonderer · 5 Apr 2022

Bletchleyite said:
I guess that the Pendolino is unusual in very much *not* being built down to a price, it was a premium product and purchased as such. Certainly Standard is "cram 'em in" to try to recoup some of that (though 1st is absolutely excellent), but the actual train has not made very many compromises at all in quality terms.

For that reason the Pendolino has aged far better than the Voyager but that's largely because XC have not maintained them well, otherwise Avanti's fleet is still pleasant to travel on. Only the diesel engine rumble, the faint sewerage smell and poor configuration holds them back.

Having travelled on enough IETs by now they have grown on me and besides the thin seating (which can easily be reconfigured and Avanti and EMR have done) they are well designed with good legroom in airline seats, impressive aisle width with good window alignment. The ride quality is only shaky in a few specific areas. They aren't at the Pendolino's level configuration aside but are way superior than a Voyager.

GS250 · 5 Apr 2022

I agree regarding the Pendolino. Naturally they were berated by some for simply being there...yes they have some minus points when compared with a MK3, however, many a smooth and fairly serene ride I've had on the WCML. I guess it helps being a purely electric train without all that weight underneath that comes with diesel traction.

Underrated in my opinion.

LNW-GW Joint · 5 Apr 2022

Pendolinos (and 221s) are actually very heavy trains because of the tilt equipment.
However, the tilt does result in an excellent ride.

Jozhua · 5 Apr 2022

Ken H said:
some nicely tarted up 110mph Cl 350's would do the job. Double units at peak times. I have done Brum - Liverpool in them and they were good.

Exactly - I don't think they really hit anywhere near 125mph between Brum and Manchester anyway!

The faster acceleration on electric power would much more than make up for it.

RailWonderer said:
For that reason the Pendolino has aged far better than the Voyager but that's largely because XC have not maintained them well, otherwise Avanti's fleet is still pleasant to travel on. Only the diesel engine rumble, the faint sewerage smell and poor configuration holds them back.

Having travelled on enough IETs by now they have grown on me and besides the thin seating (which can easily be reconfigured and Avanti and EMR have done) they are well designed with good legroom in airline seats, impressive aisle width with good window alignment. The ride quality is only shaky in a few specific areas. They aren't at the Pendolino's level configuration aside but are way superior than a Voyager.

IETs are fantastic. They would suit XC perfectly for their mix of long diesel and electrified stretches.

Honestly TPE's new fleet has made night and day difference. The 802s are a joy to travel on up to Newcastle.

Of course there is the seating thing, but this would be the same even if a older train was refit today. To be honest, there are lots of seats that do well in being thinner to increase legroom, while also providing good padding. Funnily enough the best example of this I've found is Ryanair's new seats. Just as "soft" as the previous ones, but much thinner, giving you a solid inch or two of extra legroom.

jhy44 · 5 Apr 2022

They do have great big windows and good amounts of tables, in that respect they're far superior to a Pendolino.

However, phone signal / data in them is basically non-existent at most times, which makes being able to make the most of those tables to do work on a laptop not possible.

And they are always so very overcrowded because they're far too short for their journeys, a problem I think is exacerbated by what seems like narrower aisles than most trains, making it very difficult to try and pass someone in it, adding to the sense of crowding/claustrophobia.

But if you don't need phone signal, and are fortunate enough to travel at a quiet time of day, then sure, they're great.

I'd personally rather travel on Class 170 Turbostar given the choice (if say doing Bham - Cheltenham or Bham - Derby).

Voyagers could be the best current train

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