Class 317s and 315s comparisons in service.

Bikeman78 · 21 Jul 2022

nw1 said:
The six (for CEPs) must be: Charing Cross, Victoria, Waterloo, Cannon Street, London Bridge, Holborn Viaduct. I know CEPs worked out of the first 5 of these, not sure about Holborn. Both VEPs and EPBs would have matched that, as they certainly worked out of HV. I'd guess SUBs too, and likely HAPs.

I was thinking of Blackfriars and had forgotten Holborn viaduct. CEPs definitely went there so it's actually seven for some units albeit the set number will have changed in some cases. 1533/1539/1555/1562/1578/1697/1698/1699 have done six and no doubt went to Holborn Viaduct too.

Dragging this back on topic, most of the phase one 317s will have done six termini but there's no definitive list of which ones went to Fenchurch Street. I can personally account for 29 of them.

DanNCL said:
2-EPBs worked out of seven London terminals as they also briefly worked out of Broad Street.

Add Blackfriars so that makes in eight.

RailUK Forums

O L Leigh · 21 Jul 2022

306024 said:
It is with high passenger loadings where 315s are better than 317s. If a 317 had to be put out on a Shenfield service it would generally lose the odd minute with longer station stops, so this was only done when there was no other option.

I don’t believe that any Cl317s would have ended up on Shenfields due to lack of traction knowledge for Gidea Park drivers. Some links at Ilford signed them but, if memory serves, not all drivers did.

306024 said:
On West Anglia the Chingford / Enfield / Cheshunt were a mix of both units, but 317s were usually diagrammed towards the peak services leaving off peak as 315s. Some drivers told me they weren’t bothered which, others preferred 315s on those stopping services, especially in slippery leaf season. Guess it’s all a bit subjective.

Cl315s would take off a bit quicker than Cl317s but would run out of puff over about 40mph, so there really wasn’t much difference on WA services. Line speed in generally not much higher than 80mph anyway, so a Cl315 on a Cl317 diagram doesn’t really have any impact, and vice versa.

I never really had a huge preference for either class. They both had strengths and weaknesses, but certainly the lighter Cl315s with 50% of axles powered were easier to get moving in indifferent rail conditions.

DanNCL said:
317s didn't make it north of Leeds in passenger service substituing for IC225s. They made a visit to Newcastle on a Network South East staff charter, and a much more recent visit to York on a public charter.

That has already been discussed above.

DanNCL said:
The only one I can think of is Northumberland. But as the only visit of a 321 there I know of was being dragged to Kilmarnock for conversion into a 320 I'm not sure that counts.

Well if we’re going to play THAT game then I should point out that the Cl317s also had their PRM mods at Brodies in Kilmarnock. One was also exhibited in Scotland (not sure precisely where) ahead of the Ayrshire electrification to show what their new trains (Cl318) would be like. Thameslink also had to occasionally drag Cl317s south of the river with a Cl319 to move them between Hornsey and the TL route for a time, although perhaps never quite far enough to reach another county. Then there’s all those scrap moves to Eastleigh and Newport.

I think we’ll stick to places they’ve worked to rather than merely passed through.

DanNCL · 21 Jul 2022

O L Leigh said:
Well if we’re going to play THAT game then I should point out that the Cl317s also had their PRM mods at Brodies in Kilmarnock. One was also exhibited in Scotland (not sure precisely where) ahead of the Ayrshire electrification to show what their new trains (Cl318) would be like. Thameslink also had to occasionally drag Cl317s south of the river with a Cl319 to move them between Hornsey and the TL route for a time, although perhaps never quite far enough to reach another county. Then there’s all those scrap moves to Eastleigh and Newport.

I think we’ll stick to places they’ve worked to rather than merely passed through.

All 317 moves to Kilmarnock went via the WCML therefore avoiding Northumberland. At least one 321 move went via the Tyne Valley therefore passing through Northumberland. But I agree it probably shouldn't count.

306024 · 21 Jul 2022

nw1 said:
That seems like the opposite of what one might expect; the peak services need the most seats, so it would make more sense to have the 315s (no first class) on those. (Unless there was a sub-fleet of 317s without first, apologies if so).

The 315s also worked in the peak, doubled up to 8 cars, which meant there wasn’t enough of them for the whole peak service so it had to be supplemented with 317s as well.

O L Leigh said:
I don’t believe that any Cl317s would have ended up on Shenfields due to lack of traction knowledge for Gidea Park drivers. Some links at Ilford signed them but, if memory serves, not all drivers did.

They did on rare occasions, there was one unit diagram that made it possible as it only worked in the peak and was diagrammed for an Ilford driver. Usually someone that had recently been promoted from shed driver where 317 knowledge was required had to be available. It was very much a last resort.

Snow1964 · 21 Jul 2022

It is rather a subjective subject. I commuted from Walthamstow to Liverpool Street 1988-91 so remember both in original form

The 315s seemed more airy (probably due to low back seats, and lighter colours), but the seats were pretty basic. The early 317s seat bases always seemed too low for me, and it always seemed to be harder to get along the aisles to seats (and of course on commuter trains all seats including the middle ones would be filled)

The 315s seemed to accelerate faster at lower speeds, and thus suited better to a low speed route than 317, however it was always noticeable how they seemed to swing from side to side on curvy track in London fields area

At the time the 317s were fairly rare on inner suburban (plenty of services still used 305 or 308 units). Slam doors, quick to load, deep springy seats (but the bogies and ride quality were dreadful, so needed the bouncy seats). Always seemed easier to get a seat on older trains

For me (as a commuter) the class 315 was clear winner for short journeys, the 317s never seemed as though they were trying to hussle along and get you to your destination efficiently, always felt like they were more for leisurely comfort.

bramling · 21 Jul 2022

nw1 said:
That seems like the opposite of what one might expect; the peak services need the most seats, so it would make more sense to have the 315s (no first class) on those. (Unless there was a sub-fleet of 317s without first, apologies if so).

Presumably this diagramming was more because there weren’t enough 315s to cover the peak extras, so using 317s was the only option.

In the same way that GN used to have 317/321/365 on some peak services to King’s Cross serving inner suburban destinations.

As regards the original point, I’m a bit lost as to why such an issue is being made of all this. 315s were inner suburban and 317s outer suburban, so essentially performing two separate functions. From a passenger point of view most would prefer a 317 thanks to the high-backed seats which are more comfortable. I did Moorgate to Letchworth on low-backed 313s a couple of times and it was getting pretty uncomfortable by the end of the journey.

O L Leigh · 21 Jul 2022

My recollection of my time on WA was that there were some odd unit diagrams that saw Cl315s and Cl317s mixed around in odd ways.

There would be a pair of Cl315s that would overnight at Bishops Stortford which would go empty to Broxbourne to form early trips to Hertford before switching to inners. To balance that there would be pairs of Cl317s that would start on inners before swapping over to outers later in the morning. I don’t recall any similar arrangements happening in the evening peak, but they may have done.

Magdalia · 21 Jul 2022

DanNCL said:
317s didn't make it north of Leeds in passenger service substituing for IC225s. They made a visit to Newcastle on a Network South East staff charter, and a much more recent visit to York on a public charter.

The Railway Observer August 1998 report does have 317324+337 working 0832 KX-York relief and 1200 back on 17/06/98, so class 317s do have North Yorkshire in passenger service.

There was also a Cambridge-York charter, reversing at Stevenage, with class 317/6s when the modifications were new. I remember not being able to get a ticket because the train was fully booked, and don't have a record of the date.

nw1 · 21 Jul 2022

bramling said:
Presumably this diagramming was more because there weren’t enough 315s to cover the peak extras, so using 317s was the only option.

That makes sense, I guess my thought would have been that the 317s would have been needed for outer work in the peak and unable to do inner services.

Magdalia · 21 Jul 2022

306024 said:
It is with high passenger loadings where 315s are better than 317s. If a 317 had to be put out on a Shenfield service it would generally lose the odd minute with longer station stops, so this was only done when there was no other option.

In the dying days of NXEA, class 317s made a few appearances on the Shenfields. There was a morning turn starting on 0509 ex Ilford and an evening turn starting on 1752 to Gidea Park that produced class 317s sporadically through 2011.

nw1 said:
Unless there was a sub-fleet of 317s without first, apologies if so

317392-398 were standard class only, 317322-328 with the first class declassified. That has to be before the Stansted Express class 317/7 conversions.

317316 and 317326 also ran for a while as 3 car units, making them standard class only. One was after its non-driving trailer car was damaged by arson. I think they were mainly used in a pair on Chingfords and Enfields.

One day I will research the dates!

O L Leigh said:
One was also exhibited in Scotland (not sure precisely where) ahead of the Ayrshire electrification to show what their new trains (Cl318) would be like.

317335 at Ayr on 30/10/83.

317335 (HE)

317335 in platform 1 at Ayr Station on 30/10/1983 on the announcement of the Ayr line electrification.

www.flickr.com

O L Leigh · 21 Jul 2022

Magdalia said:
317392-398 were standard class only, 317322-328 with the first class declassified. That has to be before the Stansted Express class 317/7 conversions.

317316 and 317326 also ran for a while as 3 car units, making them standard class only. One was after its non-driving trailer car was damaged by arson. I think they were mainly used in a pair on Chingfords and Enfields.

One day I will research the dates!

317316 & 317393, Bethnal Green, May 31st 1995

1608 Hertford East-London Liverpool Street.

www.flickr.com

delt1c · 21 Jul 2022

O L Leigh said:
I don’t believe that any Cl317s would have ended up on Shenfields due to lack of traction knowledge for Gidea Park drivers. Some links at Ilford signed them but, if memory serves, not all drivers did.

Cl315s would take off a bit quicker than Cl317s but would run out of puff over about 40mph, so there really wasn’t much difference on WA services. Line speed in generally not much higher than 80mph anyway, so a Cl315 on a Cl317 diagram doesn’t really have any impact, and vice versa.

I never really had a huge preference for either class. They both had strengths and weaknesses, but certainly the lighter Cl315s with 50% of axles powered were easier to get moving in indifferent rail conditions.

That has already been discussed above.

Well if we’re going to play THAT game then I should point out that the Cl317s also had their PRM mods at Brodies in Kilmarnock. One was also exhibited in Scotland (not sure precisely where) ahead of the Ayrshire electrification to show what their new trains (Cl318) would be like. Thameslink also had to occasionally drag Cl317s south of the river with a Cl319 to move them between Hornsey and the TL route for a time, although perhaps never quite far enough to reach another county. Then there’s all those scrap moves to Eastleigh and Newport.

I think we’ll stick to places they’ve worked to rather than merely passed through.

317 .335 was exhibited at Ayr prior to electrification. Always thought it would have nice to have this unit repainted into Blue Grey as a celebratory

Dave91131 · 22 Jul 2022

Magdalia said:
Can you quote trains and dates for that please?

Three class 317 pairs worked the ECML on Saturday 20 June 1998, after the Sandy derailment, but all three pairs did double rounders to Leeds. The limited service to Newcastle and Scotland was covered by HSTs.

There's one known working to Newcastle, but it was on a staff special, not a passenger service.

317327, 43183 NCL 27-3-93

Another view of 317327 at Newcastle on a staff special from Kings Cross, posing with 43183 on the 1205 to Plymouth. 27 March 1993.

www.flickr.com

Having briefly read the early part of this thread earlier in the week, this evening I went in search of my sightings notes from Saturday June 20th 1998.

Noted at Peterborough (with departure times) through the day I have the following:

Northbound:

317649 + 317653 - 10:16 pass non stop to Leeds
317370 + 317347 - 11:01 to Leeds
321902 solo - 12:01 to Leeds
321901 solo - 13:01 to Leeds

Southbound:

321901 solo - 10:41 to King's Cross (ex Leeds)
317309 + 317325 - 12:41 to King's Cross (ex Leeds)
317653 + 317649 - 13:41 to King's Cross (ex Leeds)
317347 + 317370 - 14:37 to King's Cross (ex Leeds)

My notes seem to substantiate that there were indeed 3 pairs of 317's out on the King's Cross - Leeds circuit that day as well as at least 2 of the ex WYPTE 321's. I also have notes of numerous GNER HST's on services to and from Newcastle and Scotland, as well as solo 317's and 365's on the WAGN Peterborough - King's Cross stopping services. I don't have any notes of any other 317's covering GNER duties on this day, nor any record of any on anything other than the Leeds circuit.

Worthy of note is that 317370 hadn't at the time been refurbished, I forget now if the phase 2 units (317349-372) were refurbished in numerical order or not - perhaps someone can confirm.

Hope this info helps.

bramling · 22 Jul 2022

Dave91131 said:
Having briefly read the early part of this thread earlier in the week, this evening I went in search of my sightings notes from Saturday June 20th 1998.

Noted at Peterborough (with departure times) through the day I have the following:

Northbound:

317649 + 317653 - 10:16 pass non stop to Leeds
317370 + 317347 - 11:01 to Leeds
321902 solo - 12:01 to Leeds
321901 solo - 13:01 to Leeds

Southbound:

321901 solo - 10:41 to King's Cross (ex Leeds)
317309 + 317325 - 12:41 to King's Cross (ex Leeds)
317653 + 317649 - 13:41 to King's Cross (ex Leeds)
317347 + 317370 - 14:37 to King's Cross (ex Leeds)

My notes seem to substantiate that there were indeed 3 pairs of 317's out on the King's Cross - Leeds circuit that day as well as at least 2 of the ex WYPTE 321's. I also have notes of numerous GNER HST's on services to and from Newcastle and Scotland, as well as solo 317's and 365's on the WAGN Peterborough - King's Cross stopping services. I don't have any notes of any other 317's covering GNER duties on this day, nor any record of any on anything other than the Leeds circuit.

Worthy of note is that 317370 hadn't at the time been refurbished, I forget now if the phase 2 units (317349-372) were refurbished in numerical order or not - perhaps someone can confirm.

Hope this info helps.

On the last point, the 317/2s were indeed refurbished more-or-less in numerical order.

Magdalia · 22 Jul 2022

Dave91131 said:
this evening I went in search of my sightings notes from Saturday June 20th 1998.

Brilliant! Thanks very much for sharing these.

bramling said:
On the last point, the 317/2s were indeed refurbished more-or-less in numerical order.

I do have a list that was given to me a long time ago: it requires cross checking, and 317655 is missing. The 317/6 conversion order is not exactly numerical but comes quite close. At the time of the Sandy derailment the only class 317/6s were 317649/650/651/653.

317 forever · 23 Jul 2022

Given that the Elizabeth Line is open, albeit not yet from Shenfield through central London, it seems ironic that the last 315s are outlasting the last 317s in service.

Calling myself 317 forever here has of course not enabled class 317 trains to last in service forever. :'(

richardcoughla · 23 Jul 2022

317 forever said:
Given that the Elizabeth Line is open, albeit not yet from Shenfield through central London, it seems ironic that the last 315s are outlasting the last 317s in service.

Calling myself 317 forever here has of course not enabled class 317 trains to last in service forever.

I saw one on Wednesday just leaving Stratford going to Liverpool Street that took me by surprise!

bramling · 23 Jul 2022

Magdalia said:
Brilliant! Thanks very much for sharing these.

I do have a list that was given to me a long time ago: it requires cross checking, and 317655 is missing. The 317/6 conversion order is not exactly numerical but comes quite close. At the time of the Sandy derailment the only class 317/6s were 317649/650/651/653.

The latter is how I remember it. 317649 was definitely the first, and they appeared roughly numerically. There may have been the odd one slightly out of sequence, but it certainly wasn’t far off numerical. An interesting question as to why it was done like that, as there doesn’t seem any obvious reason to make a special effort to do so.

I remember 317655 got trashed by some football fans more or less immediately upon re-entry to service!

D365 · 24 Jul 2022

317 forever said:
Given that the Elizabeth Line is open, albeit not yet from Shenfield through central London, it seems ironic that the last 315s are outlasting the last 317s in service.

Calling myself 317 forever here has of course not enabled class 317 trains to last in service forever.

I see now why the 365s disappeared so quickly...

Pigeon · 28 Jul 2022

O L Leigh said:
the door mechanisms were totally replaced at the same time, going from air operation to electric and tied into the WSP racks to permit the same emergency operation as is found on more modern units.

Does WSP here mean something other than wheel slip protection? If not, what on earth kind of logic makes it relevant to emergency operation of the doors?

O L Leigh · 28 Jul 2022

Pigeon said:
Does WSP here mean something other than wheel slip protection? If not, what on earth kind of logic makes it relevant to emergency operation of the doors?

Tugging the egress handle will only cause the doors to release when the train is travelling at less than 3mph (I think), otherwise you just get an emergency brake application and have to tug again once the train is going slow enough to get the doors open. To achieve this, the door control unit needs a feed from a speedo, and as the WSP probes on each axle operate as a speedo the easiest way of doing this is by tying the doors into the WSP rack.

So, not so illogical after all.

Pigeon · 28 Jul 2022

I see, thanks.

O L Leigh · 29 Jul 2022

Most welcome.

Bikeman78 · 29 Jul 2022

O L Leigh said:
Tugging the egress handle will only cause the doors to release when the train is travelling at less than 3mph (I think), otherwise you just get an emergency brake application and have to tug again once the train is going slow enough to get the doors open. To achieve this, the door control unit needs a feed from a speedo, and as the WSP probes on each axle operate as a speedo the easiest way of doing this is by tying the doors into the WSP rack.

So, not so illogical after all.

Back in the day I saw some unruly kids pull open the doors on a 150 doing around 75 mph. The brakes came on but, if I recall correctly, when they let go of the doors they released again. This happened a few times. Then the kids got off at the next stop. I guess the same can be done all all units with similar doors unless they have been modified in the past 20 years.

O L Leigh · 29 Jul 2022

Bikeman78 said:
Back in the day I saw some unruly kids pull open the doors on a 150 doing around 75 mph. The brakes came on but, if I recall correctly, when they let go of the doors they released again. This happened a few times. Then the kids got off at the next stop. I guess the same can be done all all units with similar doors unless they have been modified in the past 20 years.

Back in the day, pulling the doors open on a Cl317 didn’t result in any brake application at all, just loss of traction power. Eventually they did mod them so that they were interlocked with the brakes too.

I suspect your tale comes from the days before the 12%g modification was carried out, when an emergency brake application was recoverable. As such, this would have been nothing to do with the operation of the door interlock circuit but rather the operation of the emergency brake.

Class 317s and 315s comparisons in service.

Established Member

RailUK Forums

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Veteran Member

Established Member

Established Member

Member

Veteran Member

Veteran Member

Member

Established Member

Member

Established Member

Established Member

Established Member