MML to scotland?

Hey all.

I was just thinking about capacity on the ECML and WCML, and wondering if a To scotland service through the MML could be any use. First off I was thinking MML to nottingham, the along the robin hood line to worksop, then connecting to the ECML at retford, However I beleive there are low speed limits on this section of track. so maybe there is a better route (maybe from sheffield?)

Would a WCML connection be possible, I imagine most of the capacity issues will be approaching london, so a conection to say... Manchester, where possible, a lot of extra capacity could be gained (The MML does have less traffic right? EMT only operate a few trains an hour along it, and I dont think anyone else really runs along it for major periods of time)

This would mean increased capacity for london=> scotland services, and slightly more, albiet along a possibly longer route, for manchester, and the whole MML as some West coast services (voyagers? none electrics?) along the MML.

Let me Know our thoughts,
Yew

London-Erewash Valley-Sheffield-Leeds-Settle-Carlisle-Glasgow

Settle and Carlisle Line?!!

(The MML does have less traffic right? EMT only operate a few trains an hour along it, and I dont think anyone else really runs along it for major periods of time)



The MML is close to capacity - see the NR RUS

gordonthemoron said:

London-Erewash Valley-Sheffield-Leeds-Settle-Carlisle-Glasgow

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Which is of course the "Traditional" St. Pancras-Scotland route. Another possibility is [...]-Leeds-York-Newcastle-Edinburgh.

mallard said:

Which is of course the "Traditional" St. Pancras-Scotland route. Another possibility is [...]-Leeds-York-Newcastle-Edinburgh.

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Isn't the ECML already very full York-Newcastle though?

The trad. route seems the obvious answer, though I'm not sure whether there would actually be the need to run this to London. I'd do:

Nottingham-Chesterfield-Sheffield-Leeds-Keighley-Skipton-Settle-(Horton-in-Ribblesdale and Ribblehead in Summer weekends only)-Carlisle-Lockerbie-Glasgow

It would be slower than changing trains but there'd be the advantage of offering a direct service, which might appeal to some travellers, and the scenic nature of the route could be a plus. You might be able to run 'stopper' services doing Glasgow-Leeds or Nottingham-Carlisle for this reason, which would stop less frequently than Northern's current Leeds-Carlisle and Leeds-Nottingham services, but more frequently than the above.

This would be my favourite fantasy open access service...

I'd have thought that between London and Bedford in particular, you'd be lucky to squeeze any significant services inbetween the existing slow, semi-fast and fast services.

The major hinderance on the MML is between Radlett and West Hampstead.

The Bedford-Brighton 'semi-fast' goes down the fast lines inbetween the EMT services to overtake the 'stopper' services (and they only just do it!)

Do the Waverly line "properly" and go to Edinburgh via the middle of the Borders?

There's almost definitely a path for an xx:45 departure from St. Pancras as the xx:15 Nottinghams beforehand use the equivalent path 30 mins earlier.

Is there though? With there only being 4 platforms there isn't always spare platforms. There would be if they were all meridians but HSTs have a long turnaround time

The MML is a slower line (little over 110mph IIRC?), it has a lot of freight, it has two track sections, it has little/no grade separated junctions...

Plus, to go fast up the MML means avoiding Derby and Nottingham (through Erewash), which negates much of the point of serving the East Midlands.

I agree that the four platforms at St Pancras should be able to cope with six departures an hour (if split well), but its further up the line that the capacity bites (such as FCC Thameslink services coming onto the fast tracks)

It was a big mistake that the MML only got 4 platforms with no room for any sort of expansion!

XC Glasgow to Nottingham via ECML .You could then have some services that go onto the South West.

Leaving ECML at Doncaster, Retford or Newark?

gordonthemoron said:

Leaving ECML at Doncaster, Retford or Newark?

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Newark would be doubling back. Retford would be down the robin hood line, 2 trains an hour in each direction, lots of spare capacity there, but speed issues (however imagine a HST on the viaduct over mansfield town centre!)

I think it would work, quick link to St Pancras International

I think the way i would chose would be

LONDON ST PANCRAS - LEICESTER - DERBY- CHESTERFIELD - SHEFFFIELD - BARNSLEY - WAKEFIELD KIRKGATE - WOODLESFORD - SHIPLEY - SKIPTON - HELLIFIELD - SETTLE - APPLEBY - CARLISE - DUMFRIES - NEW CUMNOCK - KILMARNOCK - BARRHEAD - CROSSMYLOOF - GLASGOW CENTRAL

(Double the branch between Mauchline junction & Barrhead)

Or another idea that you could use is

LONDON ST PANCRAS - LEICESTER - EAST MIDLANDS PARKWAY - THROUGH TOTON OR BEESTON - LANGLEY MILL - CHESTERFIELD - GRINDLEFORD - NEW MILLS CENTRAL - STOCKPORT - MANCHESTER PICCADULLY P13 & 14 - DEANSGATE - SALFORD CRESCENT - MOSES GATE - BOLTON - BLACKBURN - CLITHEROE - HELLIFIELD - SETTLE - APPLEBY - CARLISE - CARSTAIRS - SHIELDMUIR - UDDINGSTON - CAMBUSLANG - GLASGOW CENTRAL

Honstly there loads of ways you can do it from London To Scotland, the above is only the Path i think it could take not stopping at!

And i don't think Bolton and Blackburn have an direct London Link!

Didn't there used to be a service in the 60's or something that ran from St Pancreas - Scotland via S&C??

Richard Armstrong said:

There's almost definitely a path for an xx:45 departure from St. Pancras as the xx:15 Nottinghams beforehand use the equivalent path 30 mins earlier.

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But that would be following the all stopper xx30 Nottingham all the way, and any additional stops on this service would delay the xx55 Sheffield fast.

I'd prefer a route via Manchester as per Project Rio several years back. St Pancras to Manchester is do-able in 2h45 avoiding Sheffield, giving a total journey time of about 6h to Scotland. How does this time compare to going via Leeds and the S&C?

bengolding said:

I'd prefer a route via Manchester as per Project Rio several years back. St Pancras to Manchester is do-able in 2h45 avoiding Sheffield, giving a total journey time of about 6h to Scotland

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But if you are avoiding Derby/ Nottingham/ Sheffield then you're taking on quite a diversion (from the WCML route), meaning you'll get overtaken, without actually serving anywhere very big

jopsuk said:

Do the Waverly line "properly" and go to Edinburgh via the middle of the Borders?

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Definitely the best idea.

On weekends like this, I'd far rather be sat on a Pendolino running from Glasgow to Carlisle via Edinburgh and the Borders rather than a coach between Carlisle and Glasgow.

Class172 said:

Didn't there used to be a service in the 60's or something that ran from St Pancreas - Scotland via S&C??

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You're thinking of the old "Thames-Clyde Express".

I know glasgow trains wanted to do the route via carlisle and leeds from nottingham/leicester to glasgow twice a day and also put in a bid to the journey every two hours via the ecml. I dont know if there would be enough room on the network for a nottingham-glasgow/scotland service though if there was the route via the ecml seems to me the only route that would be viable esp as it would call at places such as doncastor and york, places which could generate quite a few through journeys that require a change of train at the momment.
A different idea would be to consider having some existing Xc services reverse a nottingham and avod derby by travelling via the (presently unused) castle donnington line and up the erewash line that way i dont know what time penalty this would bring as its slower via nottingham then via derby.
That said the erewash line does have alot of spare capacity on it as its double tracked! Also im sure that the "fast" line has a speed limit of 110mph but is unused does any one have any idea if any train uses the fast line and if so how long does it take to get to chesterfield/sheffield area in relation to existing services which use the slow line?
In relation to london-sctoland via the mml i dont know if theyd be a point as almost anyone doing this jounrey would use the faster wcml and ecml routes on the other hand it would give bedofrd and luton (both cities) a good service northwards so it may have some merit?

route:oxford said:

Definitely the best idea.

On weekends like this, I'd far rather be sat on a Pendolino running from Glasgow to Carlisle via Edinburgh and the Borders rather than a coach between Carlisle and Glasgow.

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It would only be a good idea if you electrified and vastly speeded up the S&C and Waverley- huge cost, many people upset!

I've always liked the idea of a Leeds-Glasgow fast service, something like

Leeds City
Shipley
Keighley
Skipton
Settle
Kirkby Stephen
Appleby
Carlisle
Dumfries
Kilmarnock
Glasgow Central

cuccir said:

Isn't the ECML already very full York-Newcastle though?

The trad. route seems the obvious answer, though I'm not sure whether there would actually be the need to run this to London. I'd do:

Nottingham-Chesterfield-Sheffield-Leeds-Keighley-Skipton-Settle-(Horton-in-Ribblesdale and Ribblehead in Summer weekends only)-Carlisle-Lockerbie-Glasgow

It would be slower than changing trains but there'd be the advantage of offering a direct service, which might appeal to some travellers, and the scenic nature of the route could be a plus. You might be able to run 'stopper' services doing Glasgow-Leeds or Nottingham-Carlisle for this reason, which would stop less frequently than Northern's current Leeds-Carlisle and Leeds-Nottingham services, but more frequently than the above.

This would be my favourite fantasy open access service...

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I've been trying to put together a timetable for one, but can't seem to find any appropriate timings for a 57 with 10 coaches (slowest-case scenario) over the MML or a Meridian (fastest-case scenario) over the S&C.

tbtc said:

But if you are avoiding Derby/ Nottingham/ Sheffield then you're taking on quite a diversion (from the WCML route), meaning you'll get overtaken, without actually serving anywhere very big

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Hope you don't have any friends who live in Leicester !!

Just trying to work this out, but does the following work?

xx00 Corby train from London St Pancras
xx05 Path possible?

So then move these two around to give

xx00 Scotland*
xx03 Corby

the xx00 is now following the fast Sheffield as close as possible (if it can get closer move the path closer)

This will now serve Bedford and arrive Leicester at xx10 (just ahead of the Stansted Airport train)

The train should then serve East Midlands Parkway and Chesterfield where it would now be ahead of the Sheffield train.

Assuming I am right about the train being ahead of the Sheffield train then there are a few options:

Send the Scotland via Manchester

In this situation the Sheffield continues to Sheffield and the Scotland train moves to take the Hope Valley (so not serving Sheffield). It should be ahead of the xx10 TransPennine from Sheffield on this section.

I would then make the train serve Manchester Victoria (via Ashburys) to avoid conflicts at Piccadilly/Salford Crescent. This may need some recasting of the local services to New Mills / Rose Hill.

The train should then serve Bolton, Wigan(?), Preston and stations to Glasgow (this relieves pressure on the Pendolinos to Glasgow and other Virgin services through Wigan)

Send the Scotland via Leeds/Doncaster

This is best from stock utilisation as the Sheffield (current) would terminate at Derby. As it is overtaken by the Scotland train then there is little benefit in keeping it running to Sheffield as passengers would use the Scotland train. It would also be possible to shorten the train and maybe use it in stock movements to and from Etches Park getting better fleet utilisation.

The Scotland train then continues into Sheffield (just ahead of current path) and then can go north using whichever route is most available.

Abandon Scotland and go Sheffield to Manchester Airport

This would then simply turn around in Sheffield and pick up the path of the Cleethorpes to MIA train.

Same points about stock utilisation with the xx55 terminating at Derby. Trains should be scheduled to use platforms 2/5 or 6/8 at Sheffield to allow cross platform changes with Cleethorpes services. As the Cleethorpes turn around is tight this could be given to Northern to use 158s freed by having TransPennine operate York - Blackpool. (This means Sheffield - Bridlington can be worked into the Cleethorpes diagrams) These 158s may even be part of a cascade from Scotland.

Waverley125 said:

I've always liked the idea of a Leeds-Glasgow fast service, something like

Leeds City
Shipley
Keighley
Skipton
Settle
Kirkby Stephen
Appleby
Carlisle
Dumfries
Kilmarnock
Glasgow Central

Click to expand...

This is a very interesting route as it gives a link to two very large conurbations and, of course, for the tourist industry there is the Settle to Carlisle route included.

I was looking at another link on this website about the class 180 units. This route would give 5-coach loading capacity on your proposed route and I saw that quite a few contributors suggested that these units could cover the Manchester Airport to Glasgow route.

How about First TPE making a bid for fame and running your route, which would give them two routes to Scotland, one from the North West and one from Yorkshire.

Paul Sidorczuk said:

This is a very interesting route as it gives a link to two very large conurbations and, of course, for the tourist industry there is the Settle to Carlisle route included.

I was looking at another link on this website about the class 180 units. This route would give 5-coach loading capacity on your proposed route and I saw that quite a few contributors suggested that these units could cover the Manchester Airport to Glasgow route.

How about First TPE making a bid for fame and running your route, which would give them two routes to Scotland, one from the North West and one from Yorkshire.

Click to expand...

I do like the route idea. I think having it start from Nottingham and stopping at Sheffield would open up a lot more traffic between these cities and Glasgow. I might ditch Shipley Kirkby Stephen (pop approx. 1000!) and go via Motherwell to keep it intercity though - via Dumfries may be scenic, but it's the long way round for a competitive fast service.

I also like a simple London - Leicester - Derby - Stockport - Manchester route too. The East Midlands cities really aren't that well connected! This new Rio service could maybe alternate between Luton and Bedford - plenty of demand for the Northwest I reckon, and M1/M6 relief!