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When the slow line becomes the fast line

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trundlewagon

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A points failure at Kings Norton yesterday has meant the Up Fast has been out of use beyond Longbridge.

Many Cross City services usually get overtaken by XC and WMR Hereford services while they're on the slows between Longbridge and Kings Norton, otherwise the fast train gets stuck behind the stopper all the way to New Street.
An added complication is that only the Up Fast is electrified between Barnt Green and Longbridge where the wires (and the Cross City trains switch to the Up Slow).

The workaround to minimise delays seems to be to hold the Cross City on the fast before Longbridge and send the fast train along the Up Slow from Barnt Green to undercut.

I'd imagine it's a pretty rare thing to happen but wondered if there's anywhere where this kind of thing happens regularly - that is the fast train uses the slow line, while the slow train uses the fast?

Wasn't there an odd set up on the Trent Valley before it got upgraded where some platforms were on the fast?
 
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rower40

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Not exactly the same, but:
On the short section of 4-track between Derby and Peartree, the conflicting moves are reduced if the Up train uses the Down Tamworth Slow (into Derby platform 4), and the Down train (out of Derby platform 3) uses the Up Tamworth Slow!

On the 4-track from Oxford to Oxford North Junction; freights towards the Down Bletchley line (towards Oxford Parkway and Bicester Village) can be refuged on the Down Oxford (Fast), while the passenger train can undertake using the Down Oxford Relief.
 
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swt_passenger

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Between Clapham Junction and Barnes in the down direction. The named down fast is used by mostly slower stopping trains heading for the Hounslow loop, the named down slow is used by the faster trains heading for Richmond and Reading.

Although it’s only a relatively short distance, in the Southampton area between Northam Junction and St Denys, trains heading for the Netley line, ie towards Fareham, are often held on the up fast before the junction, and faster trains overtake the stopped train on the up slow.
 
D6130

D6130

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swt_passenger said:
Although it’s only a relatively short distance, in the Southampton area between Northam Junction and St Denys, trains heading for the Netley line, ie towards Fareham, are often held on the up fast before the junction, and faster trains overtake the stopped train on the up slow.
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Not sure whether it's still the case, but when I was a guard on the Southern Region in the mid-1980s the 'outer' lines on the short four track section between Southampton and Millbrook were the Fast lines....and the two centre tracks - which served the island platform Millbrook station - were the Slow lines.
 
LNW-GW Joint

LNW-GW Joint

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trundlewagon said:
Wasn't there an odd set up on the Trent Valley before it got upgraded where some platforms were on the fast?
Click to expand...
The TV stations, other than Nuneaton, were all on the outer (slow) lines, and still are.
The layout of the 4-track has changed between Armitage and Colwich though.
The old layout (pre-TV4) was Down Fast (leading to Stafford), Down Manchester (leading to Stone), Up Fast, Up Slow.
The new layout (post-TV4) is Down Slow (leading to Stafford), Down Fast (going either way at Colwich), Up Fast, Up Slow.
So trains on the new DF face a 65mph crossing at Colwich to reach the Stafford line (45mph towards Stone), while those on the DS (eg LNR 350s) run straight through at 90mph.
All TV4 tracks (Tamworth-Armitage) are signed 110/125mph EPS, so no difference between slow and fast.

There are also a couple of short stretches of reinstated Down Slow lines which have become the Down Fast, with the old DF becoming the new DS - these are north of Rugby and north of Hartford.
That puts freight, briefly, on the inner track and fast trains (at EPS speeds) on the outer.
 
30907

30907

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D6130 said:
Not sure whether it's still the case, but when I was a guard on the Southern Region in the mid-1980s the 'outer' lines on the short four track section between Southampton and Millbrook were the Fast lines....and the two centre tracks - which served the island platform Millbrook station - were the Slow lines.
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They still are!

Meanwhile in SE London, from 1959* the northern pair of lines from Shortlands to Bickley were labelled Slow lines and the southern pair Fast lines.
The Fasts were used by boat trains, the Slows by trains that ran Fast to Bromley South, with stopping trains about 50/50 - until the layout was rebuilt for Eurostar, since when all stopping trains have normally used the Fasts and all (Kent Coast) fasts the Slows.
Of course Fast and Slow are just convenient labels in this case (and most of the others people have mentioned) with no difference in speed (etc)*

*the pedant in me says - prior to 1959 the outer pair were Local lines and the centre pair Mains, and the Locals had 20mph restrictions through station platforms and all the crossovers, while the Mains were nominally 60mph.
 
S

swt_passenger

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D6130 said:
Not sure whether it's still the case, but when I was a guard on the Southern Region in the mid-1980s the 'outer' lines on the short four track section between Southampton and Millbrook were the Fast lines....and the two centre tracks - which served the island platform Millbrook station - were the Slow lines.
Click to expand...
It is still like that, but I don’t think it’s an answer to the original question, because the lines are still used as they are named?
 
rower40

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To expand upon the Mains and Reliefs on the GW out of Paddington:

There was a long closure of Paddington one Christmas all the way to New Year (1990s or early 2000s?), and all trains from the west were terminating at Ealing Broadway. The inter-city operator put their foot down with a firm hand, and insisted that their HSTs would terminate in Ealing Broadway platform 4 (Up Relief), then shunt across to platform 3 (Down Relief) to form the next westbound departure. Thames Trains were relegated to using platform 2 on the Up Main for arrivals, and then shunting to platform 1 on the Down Main for departures. This was also because the staircase access to platforms 1 and 2 wouldn't have coped with an entire HST-full of passengers de-training to connect to the tube.

So the local trains used the Main lines, (crossing at Southall West), while the long-distance trains used the Relief lines (crossing at Southall East).

I assume that the Crossrail project has provided better access to the Main Line platforms in case services are disrupted.
 
43066

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trundlewagon said:
I'd imagine it's a pretty rare thing to happen but wondered if there's anywhere where this kind of thing happens regularly - that is the fast train uses the slow line, while the slow train uses the fast?
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30907 said:
Meanwhile in SE London, from 1959* the northern pair of lines from Shortlands to Bickley were labelled Slow lines and the southern pair Fast lines.
The Fasts were used by boat trains, the Slows by trains that ran Fast to Bromley South, with stopping trains about 50/50 - until the layout was rebuilt for Eurostar, since when all stopping trains have normally used the Fasts and all (Kent Coast) fasts the Slows.
Of course Fast and Slow are just convenient labels in this case (and most of the others people have mentioned) with no difference in speed (etc)*
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@30907 beat me to it re. that stretch of the Chatham Mainline!

Presumably it’s because the slows used to take stoppers coming off the Catford loop at Shortlands junction, until the fly under built for Eurostar meant fast trains coming from Beckenham Junction could go over the top of them. The current arrangement makes more sense at Swanley where fast trains (travelling on the slows) can go straight on.
 
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Oldgaloot

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It may have been more common than I remember but I think there were one or two trains a day that habitually went down the Cobham (ie slow) line from Waterloo to Guildford instead of the Woking (ie fast) line. If there was a problem on the fast line more trains would be re-routed accordingly.
 
M

MarlowDonkey

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rower40 said:
To expand upon the Mains and Reliefs on the GW out of Paddington:
Click to expand...

Back in the days when all the services were operated by FGW, there was a curious late evening swop at Slough. One of the stopping trains would shuffle across to the up main and wait for ten minutes or perhaps longer to be overtaken by a stopping semi-fast. In the meantime HSTs would trundle through on the up relief.

I think this was something to do with running it as a two track railway late in the evening except at Slough.
 
30907

30907

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43066 said:
@30907 beat me to it re. that stretch of the Chatham Mainline!

Presumably it’s because the slows used to take stoppers coming off the Catford loop at Shortlands junction, until the fly under built for Eurostar meant fast trains coming from Beckenham Junction could go over the top of them. The current arrangement makes more sense at Swanley where fast trains (travelling on the slows) can go straight on.
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Both fasts and slows used to take stoppers, but the Down Slow at Shortlands was a turnback for all-stations Catford Loop trains in the peaks, so that could be another reason for the choice of designation.
I agree it made sense for Chatham services to use the Slows (it still does) while boat trains used the Fasts.

(Into detail now: the only other offpeak service I recall on the Down Fast in the 70s was xx55 Victoria to Ashford, because it conflicted with the xx50 Gillingham which had to go via Catford. By contrast, it was not unknown pre 1959 for boat trains to use the Up Local - indeed my earliest memory aged 2ish is of one!)
 
brad465

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43066 said:
@30907 beat me to it re. that stretch of the Chatham Mainline!

Presumably it’s because the slows used to take stoppers coming off the Catford loop at Shortlands junction, until the fly under built for Eurostar meant fast trains coming from Beckenham Junction could go over the top of them. The current arrangement makes more sense at Swanley where fast trains (travelling on the slows) can go straight on.
Click to expand...
30907 said:
Both fasts and slows used to take stoppers, but the Down Slow at Shortlands was a turnback for all-stations Catford Loop trains in the peaks, so that could be another reason for the choice of designation.
I agree it made sense for Chatham services to use the Slows (it still does) while boat trains used the Fasts.

(Into detail now: the only other offpeak service I recall on the Down Fast in the 70s was xx55 Victoria to Ashford, because it conflicted with the xx50 Gillingham which had to go via Catford. By contrast, it was not unknown pre 1959 for boat trains to use the Up Local - indeed my earliest memory aged 2ish is of one!)
Click to expand...
It's at the Swanley end that the fast and slow designation confuses me: the main east of Swanley feeds into Swanley on the slows at 75mph, but to go to the "fasts" involves a 30mph crossover. Otherwise as mentioned already the line speeds are the same on both pairs through to Shortlands.
 
T

Taunton

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I seem to recall on the line south of Croydon the fast lines led directly through Redhill, while the slow lines went into the Quarry Line bypass of there, leading to expresses lurching across a slow speed crossover. It can even be seen on the well-known London to Brighton in 4 minutes film from the 1950s. This was sorted out at some point.

At Shortlands etc the initial Eurostars commonly followed the traditional boat train route through Tonbridge, running on the fasts, but when the first stage of HS1 opened they now came in on the opposite side, and there was much spending on the flying junctions, which were not needed for long.

After the line east of Taunton was quadrupled in the 1930s, with Mains in the middle and Reliefs on the outside (the GWR never said Fast and Slow), expresses to and from Bristol and the north always used the outer relief lines right through to the west end of Taunton station, as not only was the flyover junction at Cogload laid out this way, but it facilitated handling the much larger flow of mail and parcels at Taunton station from this direction on the outer platforms. Eastbound freights from Taunton, where the goods avoiding line and goods depot is on the south side, were commonly sent along the Up Main line, otherwise not much used apart from infrequent Paddington expresses, and overtaken by Bristol expresses on the outer track, before being crossed over to follow these. Even the Chard branch train would use the Up Main while a Bristol express was on the Up Relief.
 
Western 52

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Passenger trains often use the relief lines between Newport and Cardiff. I've been on some of these that have overtaken a train on the mains.
 
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Sean Emmett

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I've travelled on a few steam specials where the steamer has been routed fast line, but booked to be overtaken by a fast using the slow. Usually because of gauging issues e.g. S15 828 on the fast between Basingstoke and Woking at 60 mph max 'undertaken' by a 442 on the up slow, and 5029 Nunney Castle on the up main between Didcot East and Tilehurst East overtaken by a XC on the up relief.
 
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Rescars

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Taunton said:
I seem to recall on the line south of Croydon the fast lines led directly through Redhill, while the slow lines went into the Quarry Line bypass of there, leading to expresses lurching across a slow speed crossover. It can even be seen on the well-known London to Brighton in 4 minutes film from the 1950s. This was sorted out at some point.

At Shortlands etc the initial Eurostars commonly followed the traditional boat train route through Tonbridge, running on the fasts, but when the first stage of HS1 opened they now came in on the opposite side, and there was much spending on the flying junctions, which were not needed for long.

After the line east of Taunton was quadrupled in the 1930s, with Mains in the middle and Reliefs on the outside (the GWR never said Fast and Slow), expresses to and from Bristol and the north always used the outer relief lines right through to the west end of Taunton station, as not only was the flyover junction at Cogload laid out this way, but it facilitated handling the much larger flow of mail and parcels at Taunton station from this direction on the outer platforms. Eastbound freights from Taunton, where the goods avoiding line and goods depot is on the south side, were commonly sent along the Up Main line, otherwise not much used apart from infrequent Paddington expresses, and overtaken by Bristol expresses on the outer track, before being crossed over to follow these. Even the Chard branch train would use the Up Main while a Bristol express was on the Up Relief.
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At least some of the issues south of Croydon to which Taunton refers were due to slow trains needing to use the Quarry Line to access Coulsdon North. The closure of Coulsdon North and other associated changes in 1983 cleared the slow traffic off the Quarry Line. I'd guess the Quarry Line platforms between Purley and East Croydon have seen little use since then.
 
30907

30907

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Rescars said:
At least some of the issues south of Croydon to which Taunton refers were due to slow trains needing to use the Quarry Line to access Coulsdon North. The closure of Coulsdon North and other associated changes in 1983 cleared the slow traffic off the Quarry Line. I'd guess the Quarry Line platforms between Purley and East Croydon have seen little use since then.
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The then Local Lines (on the West side) led directly into Coulsdon N IIRC. With the rebuild of the Selhurst/Norwood junctions they became the Fasts leading to the Quarry, and as you say the platforms are little used.
 
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Rescars

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30907 said:
The then Local Lines (on the West side) led directly into Coulsdon N IIRC. With the rebuild of the Selhurst/Norwood junctions they became the Fasts leading to the Quarry, and as you say the platforms are little used.
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Yes quite. At that time the Quarry Line provided the only access to Coulsdon North, whilst the Redhill line had to accommodate the slow trains to Caterham and Tattenham Corner.
 
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