Tyne & Wear Metro Fleet Replacement: Awarded to Stadler

hacman · 15 Jan 2024

As others have said above, the general reliability of the units will help - the 555s have been specified to have very high miles between failure figures.

In addition to this, the new units are far more modular than the existing fleet - swapping parts out will be far easier and faster, which results in less time on the workshop roads per failure or maintenance cycle.

Like most modern fleets, the 555s will also feature much more advanced diagnostic capabilities. Many folks here seem to lament the introduction of computerised systems into railway rolling stock, however, when this is done a whole world opens up in terms of the data you can collect about each unit. Even 10+ years back I was working on systems with train manufacturers to remotely gather performance and fault data to enable better planning of maintenance work and faster troubleshooting - these days this is a feature that comes as standard. It's quite surprising the improvement in efficiency you can get from this.

The technology found in the current fleet is very much a product of the late 60's/early 70's, given that the design was pretty much locked in by the time the prototypes were produced and focused heavily on "proven" concepts. The 50+ years that have since passed have seen advances in rolling stock technology that are so significant it's hard to convey.

All of this combines to provide a fleet that will be available for service at a much higher rate. The 555s are not just "the next version" of the Metrocar, they're literally several generations ahead!

RailUK Forums

Killingworth · 15 Jan 2024

hacman said:
As others have said above, the general reliability of the units will help - the 555s have been specified to have very high miles between failure figures.

In addition to this, the new units are far more modular than the existing fleet - swapping parts out will be far easier and faster, which results in less time on the workshop roads per failure or maintenance cycle.

Like most modern fleets, the 555s will also feature much more advanced diagnostic capabilities. Many folks here seem to lament the introduction of computerised systems into railway rolling stock, however, when this is done a whole world opens up in terms of the data you can collect about each unit. Even 10+ years back I was working on systems with train manufacturers to remotely gather performance and fault data to enable better planning of maintenance work and faster troubleshooting - these days this is a feature that comes as standard. It's quite surprising the improvement in efficiency you can get from this.

The technology found in the current fleet is very much a product of the late 60's/early 70's, given that the design was pretty much locked in by the time the prototypes were produced and focused heavily on "proven" concepts. The 50+ years that have since passed have seen advances in rolling stock technology that are so significant it's hard to convey.

All of this combines to provide a fleet that will be available for service at a much higher rate. The 555s are not just "the next version" of the Metrocar, they're literally several generations ahead!

I hope the 555s fare better than the 777s over on Merseyside. Their general reliability seems to be rather lacking so far.

hacman · 16 Jan 2024

Killingworth said:
I hope the 555s fare better than the 777s over on Merseyside. Their general reliability seems to be rather lacking so far.

Merseyside seems to be quite the exception for Stadler to be fair. They have a solid history of delivering high-performing fleets on schedule, and even their other UK operations in Anglia have been very well regarded once the teething issues were resolved.

Their website (https://www.stadlerrail.com/en/references/overview-references/) has a good number of references for other places where they have delivered the "Metro" series of vehicles.

danielnez1 · 16 Jan 2024

The current Metro fleet was built on the mega cheap (and was never necessary cheerful). They were built with an intended 30 year lifespan and based on millage cycles of the original system, with the Airport and Sunderland extensions progressively overstretching the fleet. They have served us well given their shortcomings, but should have been replaced years ago.

The new 555s seem to be quantum leap and bang up to date with modern train construction and expected performance, but they need to get them in service stat!

Listeed · 17 Jan 2024

danielnez1 said:
The current Metro fleet was built on the mega cheap (and was never necessary cheerful). They were built with an intended 30 year lifespan and based on millage cycles of the original system, with the Airport and Sunderland extensions progressively overstretching the fleet. They have served us well given their shortcomings, but should have been replaced years ago.

The new 555s seem to be quantum leap and bang up to date with modern train construction and expected performance, but they need to get them in service stat!

Current Metrocars are practically time capsules. Will definitely be interesting to see a 43-year leap in technology between them and the 555s

norbitonflyer · 17 Jan 2024

hacman said:
Merseyside seems to be quite the exception for Stadler to be fair.

The 555s are quite different beasts from the FLIRTS on Anglia and TfW, and much more like the 777s.

Apart from the power supply - (both DC, but "coathangers" rather than shoes) is there actually much difference between them?

hacman · 17 Jan 2024

norbitonflyer said:
The 555s are quite different beasts from the FLIRTS on Anglia and TfW, and much more like the 777s.

Apart from the power supply - (both DC, but "coathangers" rather than shoes) is there actually much difference between them?

Indeed, but much of Stadler's products are built on common engineering practices and components.

There are differences between the 555 and 777 in terms of the traction package, wheelsets and a few other aspects (the chassis and body are different too given Merseyrail's wider loading gauge), but these sorts of variations between orders are what Stadler excels at.

Trestrol · 17 Jan 2024

The 777 were built in a different factory as well which hasn't the best reputation by all accounts. Luckily the new Metro's aren't being built there.

DanNCL · 17 Jan 2024

norbitonflyer said:
The 555s are quite different beasts from the FLIRTS on Anglia and TfW, and much more like the 777s.

Apart from the power supply - (both DC, but "coathangers" rather than shoes) is there actually much difference between them?

Under the solebar there’s not much in common between them. The 555s have a large number of custom components. Probably closer to Berlin’s IK units although there’s still significant differences from those too.

A likely key factor when it comes to reliability is door operation. The 777s were designed to be driver only but are instead being used with guards. The 555s will run driver only as designed.

Trestrol said:
The 777 were built in a different factory as well which hasn't the best reputation by all accounts. Luckily the new Metro's aren't being built there.

Production of the 777s is split between two sites, one of which is St Margrethen alongside the 555s. I assume it’s the Siedlce site with the poor reputation?

choo.choo · 22 Jan 2024

danbarjon · 22 Jan 2024

choo.choo said:

Hopefully this means we can get on with the fleet delivery.

ModernRailways · 23 Jan 2024

danbarjon said:
Hopefully this means we can get on with the fleet delivery.

Getting them 'delivered' won't see them in service any quicker. It will just mean instead of being sat in sidings in Europe they'd be sat in Gosforth.

choo.choo said:

Surprised they haven't made more effort to hide the decaying stock on the avoiding line, the state of some of those units is sad to see.

Paul_10 · 23 Jan 2024

ModernRailways said:
Getting them 'delivered' won't see them in service any quicker. It will just mean instead of being sat in sidings in Europe they'd be sat in Gosforth.

Surprised they haven't made more effort to hide the decaying stock on the avoiding line, the state of some of those units is sad to see.

I do wonder when the next scrap moves will take place, I'm assuming all those on the avoiding line will be the next ones to go(assuming in the order they are in now) but it does seem strange after 4002/83 going for scrap in October, nothing has happened since.

Suppose the next few months could be interesting in terms of incomings and outgoings.

And the work to transform Gosforth depot is incredible from what it was to what it is now. It is ashame though the lack of indoor space though, I just hope these units are more resilient to corrosion than the current units are.

Trestrol · 23 Jan 2024

They need to hand back the avoiding line to Nexus. So they have to either move them to the new sidings or send them for scrap. Got to find enough spare working units to provide enough air to drag them out. The shunters aren't in the best of health anyway.

DanNCL · 23 Jan 2024

ModernRailways said:
Getting them 'delivered' won't see them in service any quicker. It will just mean instead of being sat in sidings in Europe they'd be sat in Gosforth.

Although it would draw attention from the likes of the Chronicle which would put Nexus and Stadler under more pressure to get on with it. A headline on the lines of “£350m new Metro trains parked whilst old ones fall apart” would be inevitable if the large number of completed units came over without any major progression towards entry to service.

Progress over the last month towards fleet introduction has been virtually nil.

Paul_10 said:
I do wonder when the next scrap moves will take place, I'm assuming all those on the avoiding line will be the next ones to go(assuming in the order they are in now) but it does seem strange after 4002/83 going for scrap in October, nothing has happened since.

Suppose the next few months could be interesting in terms of incomings and outgoings.

And the work to transform Gosforth depot is incredible from what it was to what it is now. It is ashame though the lack of indoor space though, I just hope these units are more resilient to corrosion than the current units are.

The fact that 40 still hasn’t gone is surprising. Presume there must still be some use for it, either donating spare parts or as a depot shunter.

01 is on the avoiding line somewhere in the middle, that won’t be going for scrap but it also can’t go to Middle Engine Lane yet. They’ll have to find somewhere for it if it can’t stay on the avoiding line.

Trestrol said:
They need to hand back the avoiding line to Nexus. So they have to either move them to the new sidings or send them for scrap. Got to find enough spare working units to provide enough air to drag them out. The shunters aren't in the best of health anyway.

Being non operational and unlikely to run again, dumping them in locations such as Stoddart Street as a short term measure if the scrapyard can’t take them yet would be an option.

Trestrol · 24 Jan 2024

DanNCL said:
Being non operational and unlikely to run again, dumping them in locations such as Stoddart Street as a short term measure if the scrapyard can’t take them yet would be an option.

No point in moving them to Stoddart Street. They would get severely vandalised there and it wouldn't be easy for parts removal.
Deliveries will resume now that the final sidings are finished. Testing of the new fleet is progressing and has to be done by law before they are signed off. The Chronic-le just pandas to the doom and gloom merchants who think it's like buying a new car. Go to a showroom, buy a new car and drive it away. They see it as buerocracy but it comes down to safety.

DustyBin · 24 Jan 2024

Trestrol said:
No point in moving them to Stoddart Street. They would get severely vandalised there and it wouldn't be easy for parts removal.
Deliveries will resume now that the final sidings are finished. Testing of the new fleet is progressing and has to be done by law before they are signed off. The Chronic-le just pandas to the doom and gloom merchants who think it's like buying a new car. Go to a showroom, buy a new car and drive it away. They see it as buerocracy but it comes down to safety.

Whilst this is true, it doesn’t alter the fact that their entry into passenger service is delayed.

hacman · 24 Jan 2024

DustyBin said:
Whilst this is true, it doesn’t alter the fact that their entry into passenger service is delayed.

Indeed, however, it's worth viewing in the context of equipment that will serve the region for at least 30 years, likely more.

This is the same context in which the selected manufacturer has to be viewed, something that the "shud ov been made ere" crowd don't consider.

The 4-5 year period this project has run from procurement to passenger service is but a fraction of the overall design life, and thorough and considered testing now will result in better reliability later on.

Paul_10 · 24 Jan 2024

Trestrol said:
They need to hand back the avoiding line to Nexus. So they have to either move them to the new sidings or send them for scrap. Got to find enough spare working units to provide enough air to drag them out. The shunters aren't in the best of health anyway.

That's interesting, do you know if there is a deadline for that to happen?

DustyBin · 24 Jan 2024

hacman said:
Indeed, however, it's worth viewing in the context of equipment that will serve the region for at least 30 years, likely more.

This is the same context in which the selected manufacturer has to be viewed, something that the "shud ov been made ere" crowd don't consider.

The 4-5 year period this project has run from procurement to passenger service is but a fraction of the overall design life, and thorough and considered testing now will result in better reliability later on.

Again, I agree. Testing needs to be thorough for the reasons you state, however it's behind schedule, there's no getting away from that. Personally I don't regard it as a huge issue, but some criticism is to be expected under the circumstances.

DanNCL · 24 Jan 2024

Trestrol said:
No point in moving them to Stoddart Street. They would get severely vandalised there and it wouldn't be easy for parts removal.
Deliveries will resume now that the final sidings are finished. Testing of the new fleet is progressing and has to be done by law before they are signed off. The Chronic-le just pandas to the doom and gloom merchants who think it's like buying a new car. Go to a showroom, buy a new car and drive it away. They see it as buerocracy but it comes down to safety.

They’re already heavily vandalised where they are and if they’re only fit for scrap anyway, that was my thinking, doesn’t really matter if they get vandalised further if they’re never going to run again and anything useful has been removed.

Fully agreed about the Chronicle. Zero understanding of what it actually takes to introduce a new train. They’d just see a load of them parked up in Gosforth and write the headline without doing any research as to why.

Have the Swiss finally come back from their break then? Last I heard was that they went home for Christmas and still hadn’t returned?

hacman said:
This is the same context in which the selected manufacturer has to be viewed, something that the "shud ov been made ere" crowd don't consider.

Absolutely. Hitachi wouldn’t have been any better, indeed they’d likely have been worse.

ModernRailways · 24 Jan 2024

DanNCL said:
Although it would draw attention from the likes of the Chronicle which would put Nexus and Stadler under more pressure to get on with it. A headline on the lines of “£350m new Metro trains parked whilst old ones fall apart” would be inevitable if the large number of completed units came over without any major progression towards entry to service.

The Chronicle can publish what they like, they’d reach out for a statement and be told that testing needs to be completed before the new units can commence service. There would be no additional pressure as testing is a standard and can’t really be deviated from.

DanNCL said:
Progress over the last month towards fleet introduction has been virtually nil.

This was explained to you and is due to the Swiss actually having a proper break, this would’ve been factored into timescales.

Having spoken to some ex-colleagues I believe the plan is to begin daylight testing within the next weeks (mid-Feb, early-March).

Trestrol · 24 Jan 2024

DanNCL said:
They’re already heavily vandalised where they are and if they’re only fit for scrap anyway, that was my thinking, doesn’t really matter if they get vandalised further if they’re never going to run again and anything useful has been removed.

Fully agreed about the Chronicle. Zero understanding of what it actually takes to introduce a new train. They’d just see a load of them parked up in Gosforth and write the headline without doing any research as to why.

Have the Swiss finally come back from their break then? Last I heard was that they went home for Christmas and still hadn’t returned?

Absolutely. Hitachi wouldn’t have been any better, indeed they’d likely have been worse.

They may be vandalised but it's only graffiti. If they were at Stoddart Street they would probably end up with all the windows smashed if not set alight. Try moving a burnt out train from rail locked sidings.The windows are quite expensive so any recovered ones are handy to have. They often run short of the glass and the hoppers often don't get returned once the window is kicked out. Especially if between stations. Luckily the new trains have the windows fitted from the inside so aren't as easy to kick out. The existing metro design of windows is pretty poor fitted in a rubber seal on the outside. It doesn't help that the window appertures vary in size.
Yes the Swiss Commissioning team are back now joined by a newly appointed UK team who will take over from April.

The Laziest · 24 Jan 2024

ModernRailways said:
Having spoken to some ex-colleagues I believe the plan is to begin daylight testing within the next weeks (mid-Feb, early-March).

How long is daytime testing expected to last?
If over three months, the plan to introduce the first unit into passenger service in early 2024 as previously announced goes out of the window.
(Then again, early 2024 for me means April at latest…).

At this rate the first new unit will enter passenger service a year late.

DanNCL · 24 Jan 2024

ModernRailways said:
The Chronicle can publish what they like, they’d reach out for a statement and be told that testing needs to be completed before the new units can commence service. There would be no additional pressure as testing is a standard and can’t really be deviated from.

This was explained to you and is due to the Swiss actually having a proper break, this would’ve been factored into timescales.

If you'd actually read my contributions in full you'd have seen that I was well aware of all of that.

Trestrol said:
They may be vandalised but it's only graffiti. If they were at Stoddart Street they would probably end up with all the windows smashed if not set alight. Try moving a burnt out train from rail locked sidings.The windows are quite expensive so any recovered ones are handy to have. They often run short of the glass and the hoppers often don't get returned once the window is kicked out. Especially if between stations. Luckily the new trains have the windows fitted from the inside so aren't as easy to kick out. The existing metro design of windows is pretty poor fitted in a rubber seal on the outside. It doesn't help that the window appertures vary in size.

Thanks for the explanation, didn't realise it was that bad at Stoddart Street, had thought it would be similar to the avoiding line.

Trestrol · 24 Jan 2024

DanNCL said:
The fact that 40 still hasn’t gone is surprising. Presume there must still be some use for it, either donating spare parts or as a depot shunter.

There is possibly a use for 4040 but not as a depot shunter. Not easy to send it for scrap as it can't be top and tailed.

Paul_10 · 25 Jan 2024

Trestrol said:
There is possibly a use for 4040 but not as a depot shunter. Not easy to send it for scrap as it can't be top and tailed.

I wonder if that is the same issue with all the long term out of use units and if so then it's no wonder there has been no movements on the depot avoiding line especially the units that have not been in service since 2022(4001, 10, 60 and 76).

As for the new trains coming into service, this is the UK, every new train virtually never comes into service when predicted, it's always delayed and when they do finally enter service the teething issues come into play. I think the only real exception to that is the units Greater Anglia received.

trebor79 · 25 Jan 2024

Paul_10 said:
As for the new trains coming into service, this is the UK, every new train virtually never comes into service when predicted, it's always delayed and when they do finally enter service the teething issues come into play. I think the only real exception to that is the units Greater Anglia received.

Indeed, and very nice units they are too! Their introduction wasn't faultless as there was the level crossing incident which initially the trains were blamed for and resulted in all sorts of absurdity such as Cambridge services terminating at Ely to shunt into the sidings for the wheels to be manually cleaned. But once the investigation found it was the trackside equipment that was at fault things quickly got back to normal.

I believe there have been issues with the engines and that Deutz are having to replace them all, but with multiple engines in the power pack and a very high power to weight ratio it doesn't seem to have been an issue for units to run with an engine isolated.
Interesting, I know of an earthmoving fleet which Deutz had to replace all the engines years ago due to inherent design/manufacturing defects.

Trestrol · 25 Jan 2024

Paul_10 said:
I wonder if that is the same issue with all the long term out of use units and if so then it's no wonder there has been no movements on the depot avoiding line especially the units that have not been in service since 2022(4001, 10, 60 and 76).

As for the new trains coming into service, this is the UK, every new train virtually never comes into service when predicted, it's always delayed and when they do finally enter service the teething issues come into play. I think the only real exception to that is the units Greater Anglia received.

4040 has damaged through control cables so can't be top and tailed. hence it can't be towed away for scrap.

DanNCL · 25 Jan 2024

Trestrol said:
4040 has damaged through control cables so can't be top and tailed. hence it can't be towed away for scrap.

Could dragging it with both assisting metrocars at the same end be an option? Propel out of the depot towards Regent Centre, dragged to Howdon via Manors, propelled again onto the low loader.

Also, I assume this is the reason that 40 and 83 were withdrawn earlier than planned?

Tyne & Wear Metro Fleet Replacement: Awarded to Stadler

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