Tyne & Wear Metro Fleet Replacement: Awarded to Stadler

Nexus have issued an update regarding the introduction of the new fleet (available here).

The most ‘interesting’ bit says:

With the testing process well underway, we’ve identified that further testing of some of the systems on the new trains in very specific conditions is required, and we are working together with our partners at Stadler on this.

Identifying any issues that need to be ironed out prior to entry into customer service is really important and shows the value of our robust testing process. This unfortunately will impact the current delivery timescales but we won’t know the extent of this until the additional testing is concluded. We will still continue to make progress with the wider testing programme while this is happening.

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At this point they seem to be doubting it themselves that the trains will be able to enter passenger service soon. On the other hand, I am hopeful that the additional testing will mean less teething issues compared to Merseyrail’s Class 777 units (although I am aware someone previously mentioned the two classes are very different).

Every problem/fault found with the delivered sets is rectified by the Swiss and UK commissioning teams. These mods are passed back to Switzerland so the undelivered/unbuilt stock is modified. So actually it's better the new stock isn't delivered quickly as when it finally is it can enter service quite quickly.

The Laziest said:

At this point they seem to be doubting it themselves that the trains will be able to enter passenger service soon. On the other hand, I am hopeful that the additional testing will mean less teething issues compared to Merseyrail’s Class 777 units (although I am aware someone previously mentioned the two classes are very different).

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The Class 777s were under test on the Merseyrail network for almost 3 years before entering service (with the extra delay due by the negotiations with the guards and then drivers unions), which doesn't appear to have helped regarding their 'teething issues' (which have been going on for a year now). I've read the comments about the 555s being very different below the solebar, but other than the pickup shoe raising/lowering issues the bulk of the 777s problems are in the bodyshell, primarily mechanical issues with the door/step modules and software issues with the train management and PIS systems causing the units to go into lockout and needing to be reset (or dragged back to the depot in extreme cases). These are supposed to be 'off the shelf' modular systems that Stadler have used in previous unit designs, so quite why they are causing so much trouble in the 777s is a mystery to everyone (even Stadler, it seems).

The door/step faults only became apparent once the units entered service and were loaded with passengers. It appears none of Stadler's tests back home or in the 3 years they were on test in Merseyside included loading a unit up with passengers or even reperesentative bags of sand/barrels of water.

It's not just Merseyrail, either. The 55 Class 526 FLIRT BEMUs Stadler supplied to Schleswig-Holstein went into service on the 23rd of October last year (10 months later than planned) but were all taken out of service between December and January due to software issues with no firm date set for fixes to be deployed.

I hope the 555s work more or less perfectly once they enter service for Nexus. In Stadler's case, if it works out of the box everything seems to be generally OK (as Greater Anglia and TfW have found with their FLIRT DMU/EMUs). If not, their in-service support seems to leave a lot to be desired.

Prime586 said:

The Class 777s were under test on the Merseyrail network for almost 3 years before entering service (with the extra delay due by the negotiations with the guards and then drivers unions), which doesn't appear to have helped regarding their 'teething issues' (which have been going on for a year now). I've read the comments about the 555s being very different below the solebar, but other than the pickup shoe raising/lowering issues the bulk of the 777s problems are in the bodyshell, primarily mechanical issues with the door/step modules and software issues with the train management and PIS systems causing the units to go into lockout and needing to be reset (or dragged back to the depot in extreme cases). These are supposed to be 'off the shelf' modular systems that Stadler have used in previous unit designs, so quite why they are causing so much trouble in the 777s is a mystery to everyone (even Stadler, it seems).

The door/step faults only became apparent once the units entered service and were loaded with passengers. It appears none of Stadler's tests back home or in the 3 years they were on test in Merseyside included loading a unit up with passengers or even reperesentative bags of sand/barrels of water.

It's not just Merseyrail, either. The 55 Class 526 FLIRT BEMUs Stadler supplied to Schleswig-Holstein went into service on the 23rd of October last year (10 months later than planned) but were all taken out of service between December and January due to software issues with no firm date set for fixes to be deployed.

I hope the 555s work more or less perfectly once they enter service for Nexus. In Stadler's case, if it works out of the box everything seems to be generally OK (as Greater Anglia and TfW have found with their FLIRT DMU/EMUs). If not, their in-service support seems to leave a lot to be desired.

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Bear in mind some of the door issues with the 777 series are also related to the fact that the fleet was built for DOO, but changed last minute to two-man dispatch. This meant fitting guard panels, which are not the standard design and have an RFID "key", along with the appropriate software changes to accommodate this change in design.

The door step is an odd one, as for the most part, they work fine on the Anglian fleets - their tests absolutely do include weight testing, but you can only test so much. There is also the matter that some of the 777 fleet was produced at their Siedlce facility, where there have been known issues with quality which Stadler has been working to address. All of the 555s will be produced in Switzerland, where Stadler are based.

Stadler is addressing the issues on the 777s and the class 526 you mentioned above - it just takes time. Once Stadler products are in service, they are widely regarded as some of the best products available in the industry. And having worked with them in the past, I can confirm they take their maintenance and after-sale service obligations very seriously.

At the same time, I dread to think what the process would have been like if CAF had been selected, or even Hitachi (whose Metro/tram products are a 50:50 chance of awesome or complete lemon)!

hacman said:

Bear in mind some of the door issues with the 777 series are also related to the fact that the fleet was built for DOO, but changed last minute to two-man dispatch. This meant fitting guard panels, which are not the standard design and have an RFID "key", along with the appropriate software changes to accommodate this change in design.

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It is not unusual at te moment to see 777s running with one door locked out due to failure (early on this was enough to send them back to the depot, but there are now not enough servicable/mileage-accumulated standby 777s or Class 507s to replace them, so they are left in service). There have even been instances of doors coming off their tracks, and the other day one failed due to the driver's door not being able to be opened. These so not sound like guard panel mod related faults. You are correct, there have been some RFID dispatch faults as well, but the guard panel mod would still presumably have been designed and tested by Stadler before release to the customer, and I douby this is their first product to have guard dispatch.

hacman said:

The door step is an odd one, as for the most part, they work fine on the Anglian fleets - their tests absolutely do include weight testing, but you can only test so much. There is also the matter that some of the 777 fleet was produced at their Siedlce facility, where there have been known issues with quality which Stadler has been working to address. All of the 555s will be produced in Switzerland, where Stadler are based.

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The door/step faults have been pretty evenly spread over the fleet, not specific to units built in one plant or the other (it's pretty easy to tell as they are spilt between even and odd unit nimbers). All the 777/1 battery units used on the Kirkby line were built in Switzerland, and they have been some of the most unreliable, with the added battery-related failures (such as failing to take power on supply changeover or when starting on battery from the terminus, which I suspect might be similar to the issues seen on the BEMU FLIRTs in Germany).

The 'two plants' situation also brings up the issue that they sumehow ended up not being able to work in multiple with each other, which to someone who works in hardware/software engineering seems like a basic failure in Configuration Management and Quality Control between the plants (like what Boeing And Spirit Aero are currently under the spotlight for). I'm not sure 'Sorry, the quality of our Polish plant is a bit rubbish' works as an excuse after delivery (and I doubt the customer would have been informed of any quality issues relating to multi-site supply before signing the contract).

hacman said:

Stadler is addressing the issues on the 777s and the class 526 you mentioned above - it just takes time. Once Stadler products are in service, they are widely regarded as some of the best products available in the industry. And having worked with them in the past, I can confirm they take their maintenance and after-sale service obligations very seriously.

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'It takes time' - the initial 777s were sent to Wildenwrath for testing before delivery and then were running round Merseyrail on test for 3 years (greatly helped by the extra paths due to the reduced service during COVID) and yet most of the daults only became apparent once they entered service. That suggests the test protocols being used do not represent real in-service use cases.

Noticed on the Chronicle website of the new trains introduction being delayed till the end of 2024 yet there is no quotes which says that and they still hope they will have the introduction this year albeit with another delay.

Either way, it's no surprises as there is still no signs any daytime testing and goodness knows if that will bring up anymore unexpected issues.

Paul_10 said:

Noticed on the Chronicle website of the new trains introduction being delayed till the end of 2024 yet there is no quotes which says that and they still hope they will have the introduction this year albeit with another delay.

Either way, it's no surprises as there is still no signs any daytime testing and goodness knows if that will bring up anymore unexpected issues.

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I noticed that! It says that Nexus are now “merely” hoping to get the first train into service by the end of 2024, yet there is no quote confirming that, so I would definitely take that with a pinch of salt… until introduction of the first train into passenger service is finally officially announced for 2025.

It is becoming a running joke at this point and as a passenger it is incredibly frustrating to see the introduction of the new trains into passenger service being delayed yet again.

I'd not consider the Chronicle to be a reliable source. Delayed they may be but something like this would never normally have been leaked to the Chronicle before it emerged at a Joint Transport Committee meeting. So either the Chronicle are wrong, or someone somewhere at Nexus has got rather fed up and gone for the nuclear option.

DanNCL said:

I'd not consider the Chronicle to be a reliable source. Delayed they may be but something like this would never normally have been leaked to the Chronicle before it emerged at a Joint Transport Committee meeting. So either the Chronicle are wrong, or someone somewhere at Nexus has got rather fed up and gone for the nuclear option.

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I doubt it's the last option as the article is based on the nexus article that was put out last week of issues whilst testing.

Tbf it wouldn't surprise me if there is a further significant delay but until the first half of 2024 is over with, I will retain some hope that they might come into service this summer.

If they look like coming into service by September for the Great North Run I may have to enter for one final time!

Paul_10 said:

I doubt it's the last option as the article is based on the nexus article that was put out last week of issues whilst testing.

Tbf it wouldn't surprise me if there is a further significant delay but until the first half of 2024 is over with, I will retain some hope that they might come into service this summer.

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The Nexus article had no mention of the target date from service being the end of the year nor did the quotes from Nexus in the Chronicle article, all Nexus have said is that it’s delayed.
No idea where the Chronicle have got the end of 2024 from as it’s not in any official releases nor is it in their own interview with Nexus, so either someone close to the project has tipped them off or they’re guessing - if it were a more reliable news outlet I’d not even be suggesting the latter as a possibility.

The article is simply stating the obvious, there have been issues with the new fleet identified during testing so further deliveries will be delayed until a fix is found. Testing will continue on other aspects that aren’t impacted by the identified issue (I believe it is when rail conditions are poor (wet, slippery etc)).

Whatever the specifics of the issue are Nsxus have deemed the issue significant enough to publish a statement which is quite obviously implying that the date they gave prior of middle of 2024 will be pushed back.

ModernRailways said:

The article is simply stating the obvious, there have been issues with the new fleet identified during testing so further deliveries will be delayed until a fix is found. Testing will continue on other aspects that aren’t impacted by the identified issue (I believe it is when rail conditions are poor (wet, slippery etc)).

Whatever the specifics of the issue are Nsxus have deemed the issue significant enough to publish a statement which is quite obviously implying that the date they gave prior of middle of 2024 will be pushed back.

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That's dissapointing if indeed there is no more new arrivals despite the issues as it's just creates the backlog even further of getting those particular trains into service.

On a side note, I'm guessing the metro stock is not leased so in theory trains shouldnt be going for scrap despite issues with the new fleet(like what they are doing at Merseyrail)? The fleet shortages is already impacting service apparently so surely we don't want anymore cuts because of a shortage of stock.

If there are bogie problems then better they are rectified now rather than once they are in service. The bogies are built in Valencia factory the same place as the Merseyrail 777. Although they only supplied bogies for the new Metro's. Those with long memories will remember that bogie problems plagued the existing fleet when they were delivered. Things were that bag new bogies had to be made at BREL to replace the originals.

Trestrol said:

If there are bogie problems then better they are rectified now rather than once they are in service. The bogies are built in Valencia factory the same place as the Merseyrail 777. Although they only supplied bogies for the new Metro's. Those with long memories will remember that bogie problems plagued the existing fleet when they were delivered. Things were that bag new bogies had to be made at BREL to replace the originals.

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What was the issue with the bogies? And it's surprising they weren't picked up with the prototype units.
All ancient history now of course.

Paul_10 said:

Noticed on the Chronicle website of the new trains introduction being delayed till the end of 2024 yet there is no quotes which says that and they still hope they will have the introduction this year albeit with another delay.

Either way, it's no surprises as there is still no signs any daytime testing and goodness knows if that will bring up anymore unexpected issues.

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Just been on BBC look north lunch time news, saying introduction at the end of 2024 due to further testing needed.

trebor79 said:

What was the issue with the bogies? And it's surprising they weren't picked up with the prototype units.
All ancient history now of course.

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I think they started cracking so replacements had to be made. I assume Metro Cammell paid for the replacements. Although I believe some original met-camm ones do survive.

Both the BBC and ITV have taken the Chronicle article and reported on it themselves almost exactly word for word.

Politicians bringing out the “should have been Hitachi” rhetoric isn’t helping matters.

Unfortunately this has turned out exactly how I feared it would, the Chronicle blowing one small statement by Nexus out of proportion and sending seemingly half the region into panic mode, not helped by spin from politicians who are seeking re-election and spouting nonsense in an attempt to win votes.

Paul_10 said:

That's dissapointing if indeed there is no more new arrivals despite the issues as it's just creates the backlog even further of getting those particular trains into service.

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If they run out of space in Switzerland for completed units they’ll most likely have to pause production. They can’t completely fill up the yard in St Margrethen as space is needed there for cross border Switzerland/Austria freight to swap locos.

The chronicles news gathering seems to involve trawling social media to find stories. So no wonder they get it wrong. What ever happened to journalists going out and finding stories. Lazy reporting. Not surprised the usual suspects are saying Hitachi should have built them. They just gloss over the fact that Hitachi don't make this type of train, they did bid but were too expensive and they only assemble things at Newton Aycliffe.

trebor79 said:

What was the issue with the bogies? And it's surprising they weren't picked up with the prototype units.
All ancient history now of course.

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Yes but trundling up the nicely laid test track is not like the poorly maintained track left by BR.

Trestrol said:

The chronicles news gathering seems to involve trawling social media to find stories. So no wonder they get it wrong. What ever happened to journalists going out and finding stories. Lazy reporting.

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Thats your first error, mistaking Chronicle writers for journalists.

Volvictof said:

Thats your first error, mistaking Chronicle writers for journalists.

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Yes my my mistake

DanNCL said:

If they run out of space in Switzerland for completed units they’ll most likely have to pause production. They can’t completely fill up the yard in St Margrethen as space is needed there for cross border Switzerland/Austria freight to swap locos.

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I suppose in extremis they could be stored somewhere like Ely for a time.
I don't think pausing production is likely, it would cost a fortune and mess up their other production schedules. They'll have to be built and go somewhere, and the lawyers will argue over who has to cover any additional costs.

Trestrol said:

Yes but trundling up the nicely laid test track is not like the poorly maintained track left by BR.

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Mmm, I think the track was heavily refurbished between the closure of the BR system and it's reopening as Metro.
I don't know how nicely laid the test track was either. It was only an old waggonway after all. That said I had the NTSR 03 up to max speed on it many a time and let's not talk about the double headed Santa special that was stopwatch timed at 45mph between the Coast Road bridge and reverse curves near the museum . It can't have been that badly laid I suppose .

Trestrol said:

The chronicles news gathering seems to involve trawling social media to find stories. So no wonder they get it wrong. What ever happened to journalists going out and finding stories. Lazy reporting. Not surprised the usual suspects are saying Hitachi should have built them. They just gloss over the fact that Hitachi don't make this type of train, they did bid but were too expensive and they only assemble things at Newton Aycliffe.


Yes but trundling up the nicely laid test track is not like the poorly maintained track left by BR.

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Having said that, Nexus as of yet has not dismissed what the Chronicle has said. The original timescale was Spring 2024 and now they have said there is another delay but not specified a particular timescale yet the Chronicle have said not until the end of 2024. The fact the main news outlets have also now said this would suggest to me the reporting could well be accurate unfortunately.

We shall see if Nexus does reply to these reports and maybe clarify if there is truth on the timescale we are looking at.

trebor79 said:

I suppose in extremis they could be stored somewhere like Ely for a time.

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Merseytravel were storing 777s they had no room for at Walton Old Junction sidings adjacent to the WCML at Warrington. For reasons so far unknown, they are having to vacate that location and units are getting moved down to Long Marston.

DanNCL said:

So either the Chronicle are wrong, or someone somewhere at Nexus has got rather fed up and gone for the nuclear option.

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I’m going to go with the later option. Publicly Nexus can’t say too much really, but if the issues are on Stadler’s end then it suits Nexus to let this be known.

Trouble is we’ll now have the usual halfwits in the north east out to argue that the contract should have gone to Hitachi, with their famous build quality and attention to detail.

In reply to tetchytyke last paragraph, ohh yes the sort out the metro Facebook page has seen just them sort of comments the last few days. You would think one guy in particular works for hitachi.

18nufc98 said:

In reply to tetchytyke last paragraph, ohh yes the sort out the metro Facebook page has seen just them sort of comments the last few days. You would think one guy in particular works for hitachi.

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Of course the comments are predictable but doesn't mean they are wrong either. Hitachi may of produced a product quicker and on time but it's all ifs and buts really.

I'm sure the product Stadler has produced will be an improvement apart from the seating layout but that's the passengers fault as that is what was chosen and of course that consultation was produced before covid and as been suggested it would not surprise me if there was a bias from Nexus to pick that kind of design when in reality it's not needed really especially these days with lower passenger numbers at peak times.

I totally get people are frustrated but some of the comments on that page are laughable. Looking forward to the complaining when they're in service about the seats, no WiFi, vaping setting the smoke alarms off and the kids pulling handles and generally trashing them.

Hopefully these minor issues get ironed out and they can get pressed into service as soon as possible. I’ve been on the train and I’ve no doubt that they will be a massive success.

Paul_10 said:

Of course the comments are predictable but doesn't mean they are wrong either. Hitachi may of produced a product quicker and on time but it's all ifs and buts really.

I'm sure the product Stadler has produced will be an improvement apart from the seating layout but that's the passengers fault as that is what was chosen and of course that consultation was produced before covid and as been suggested it would not surprise me if there was a bias from Nexus to pick that kind of design when in reality it's not needed really especially these days with lower passenger numbers at peak times.

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Honestly give it a rest about the seating layout. There are literally a few less seats, and what it does enable is better use of the space during peak times, when inevitably more passengers should use the service due to increased reliability. During day there will be more than enough seats. No bias, a customer consultation provided this solution.

railfan249 said:

Honestly give it a rest about the seating layout. There are literally a few less seats, and what it does enable is better use of the space during peak times, when inevitably more passengers should use the service due to increased reliability. During day there will be more than enough seats. No bias, a customer consultation provided this solution.

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Exactly. Plus people complain about the seats but I bet they’d rather just get on a metro, at the moment at peak times, they can’t and often have to wait for 2 or 3 full metros to go past before they can fit on one.