Northern strike day and my Grand Central Doncaster to Bradford train is now cancelled.

The ticket that I hold is the return portion of a Sheffield to Steeton & Silsden SHR Anytime Short Return, routed "not via Doncaster". Today I have broken my journey at Rotherham Central and need to complete my journey tomorrow, which is a Northern strike day. My plan was take a bus Rotherham-Doncaster, the 18:02 Doncaster to Bradford Interchange Grand Central train (purchasing a £1.30 change of route excess fare to "any permitted" onboard), and then buses Bradford-Keighley-Steeton. I have a seat reservation for the 18:02 Grand Central service, booked through the GWR website.

Now I see that the 18:02 Doncaster to Bradford Interchange Grand Central train is showing as cancelled tomorrow. The following 21:19 service is too late for me to travel. The alternative would be for me to take the earlier 16:31 service, but this one goes via Pontefract, which I don't think is strictly a permitted route from Sheffield to Steeton & Silsden. Am I entitled to do so? Am I entitled to any compensation from Grand Central for the cancellation?

If Grand Central to Bradford falls through, then I am looking at LNER Doncaster to Leeds, then buses Leeds-Keighley-Steeton. The evening LNER London KX-Leeds-Keighley-Skipton service, that would have been of some use to me, also seems to be missing from tomorrow's timetable too.

As you did not hold a ticket which would be valid on the 1802 from Doncaster before it was cancelled there is no obvious claim against GC for the cancellation.

TL;DR: Your ticket wouldn't be valid on the Grand Central service even with the excess. You can use it on the LNER from Doncaster to Leeds, then use local buses to get to Skipton.

Looking at the routeing point calculator, the appropriate routeing points for your ticket would be Sheffield to Bradford Group or Leeds.

From the yellow pages, Sheffield to Bradford Group is valid via maps: NB, SY, SY+WK, SY+WY, WK, or WK+SY.

The main gist for using the maps is that you have to trace a route with no breaks from the origin routeing point of your ticket (Sheffield) to the end (Bradford Group or Leeds) without passing through the same point more than once, and you must stop at the first destination routeing point you reach. If you can use a combination of maps, you must use all maps listed and only in the provided order, and you must move to the next map at the first common routeing point on your current and next map.

In your case, this means starting at Sheffield, passing through Rotherham (as you broke your journey here) and Doncaster (as this is where you plan to start your next portion of the journey) and then onward to your destination.

NB is ruled out in effect as that map ends at Pontefract on the way to Bradford



SY permits travel via Pontefract, but not from Doncaster. You would have to head straight for Wakefield without passing through Pontefract if using this map.



SY+WK doesn't help here as technically you would have immediately moved from map SY to WK at the start of your ticket (Sheffield is common on both maps). WK doesn't assist you as travel, like SY, is only direct to Wakefield from Doncaster.



SY+WY doesn't help either as the only way to move to WY from SY would be a journey to Wakefield, then over to Pontefract while the Grand Central train goes from Doncaster to Pontefract to Wakefield.



WK+SY doesn't help for the same reason as SY+WK -- both maps include Sheffield so you immediately move to the other map which doesn't allow a journey from Doncaster to Pontefract to Wakefield.

All of these have the further issue that it's not valid to travel from Wakefield over to Halifax and up to Bradford either, which is the route the Grand Central service takes.

Does this mean you might have trouble on this journey though, even if it's not technically permitted? Probably not. Is it worth the risk? That's up to you.

Whoops. I was mistakenly thinking that map WK had a direct link from Wakefield to Halifax, avoiding Huddersfield, and was planning on using the SY+WK combination. I deliberately chose the 18:02 Grand Central train as I believe that one goes direct from Doncaster to Wakefield, avoiding Pontefract.

Is there a rule about not using map combinations, such as SY+WK, that both include the origin routeing point "technically you would have immediately moved from map SY to WK at the start of your ticket"? I am not familiar with that. My plan was to use map SY from Sheffield to Doncaster, then (mistakenly) WK from Doncaster to Bradford. Is that not allowed?

Looks like it's LNER from Doncaster to Leeds, then buses from there. Will I have any trouble buying the excess fare onboard?



EDIT - hang on... I have just noticed that Mirfield is a member of Huddesfield Routeing Group. Does that have any significance, such as allowing travel from Wakefield to Halifax on Grand Central using map WK, after all?

lyndhurst25 said:

Will I have any trouble buying the excess fare onboard?

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Wouldn’t it be simpler to just buy it at Doncaster ticket office?

lyndhurst25 said:

Is there a rule about not using map combinations, such as SY+WK, that both include the origin routeing point "technically you would have immediately moved from map SY to WK at the start of your ticket"? I am not familiar with that. My plan was to use map SY from Sheffield to Doncaster, then (mistakenly) WK from Doncaster to Bradford. Is that not allowed?

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The rule is that you must move to the next map at the moment you go to the first routeing point that is present on the next map. Since you started at Sheffield and Sheffield is on both maps, you immediately move to WK at the start of your journey.

MrJeeves said:

The rule is that you must move to the next map at the moment you go to the first routeing point that is present on the next map. Since you started at Sheffield and Sheffield is on both maps, you immediately move to WK at the start of your journey.

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Where is that rule stated? The wording in the Routeing Guide appears to imply you can use any point where the two maps join up.

"Where a routeing specifies that a combination of Maps be used e.g) YM+BY+CA, the route is via any route on that map from the first routeing point to intercept point(s) for the next map without doubling back, then via any route within that map without doubling back. This is repeated until the final map is reached then via any route within that map until the final routeing point is reached."

MrJeeves said:

The rule is that you must move to the next map at the moment you go to the first routeing point that is present on the next map. Since you started at Sheffield and Sheffield is on both maps, you immediately move to WK at the start of your journey.

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I don't believe that is stated anywhere.

Haywain said:

Wouldn’t it be simpler to just buy it at Doncaster ticket office?

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Possibly, depending on how much time I have between my bus arriving and train departing. As Grand Central have a buy-onboard policy, and I believe that you are entitled to but change-of-route excess fares on-board in any case, I was thinking that I would prefer to buy the excess fare on the train. The guard may even let me off the extra £1.30 if they don't know how to do it / can't be bothered to do it / doesn't think that is morally right to charge extra as I have been forced to travel via Doncaster because "the railway" is on strike today.

MrJeeves said:

The rule is that you must move to the next map at the moment you go to the first routeing point that is present on the next map. Since you started at Sheffield and Sheffield is on both maps, you immediately move to WK at the start of your journey.

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In that case, what is the point of offering map combinations such as SY+WK for journeys from Sheffield to Bradford, when Sheffield and Bradford appear on both maps? I thought that you were allowed to "overlap" maps and change between them wherever you chose, provided that you use the maps in strict order, do not rely on returning to a previously used map after having left it, and do not double back through any station.



Anyway, back to my original question. Can I travel from Sheffield to Steeton and Silsden, using a ticket excessed to route "any permitted", bearing in mind that Mirfield is a member of Huddersfield Routing Group, partly using the Grand Central service between Doncaster and Bradford, so long as that service avoids Pontefract? If I can, then does Grand Central have any right to stop me form using their preceding service, that happens to travel via Pontefract, because they have cancelled at short notice my chosen service for which I held a seat reservation?

MrJeeves said:

The rule is that you must move to the next map at the moment you go to the first routeing point that is present on the next map. Since you started at Sheffield and Sheffield is on both maps, you immediately move to WK at the start of your journey.

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This is contradicted by an example in the routeing guide instructions:
http://iblocks-rg-publication.s3-website-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/nrg_instructions.pdf

Example (e) - Darlington to Shrewsbury via permitted route YM+BY+CA. This allows travel from Darlington to York via Map YM, York to Wolverhampton via Map BY and Wolverhampton to Shrewsbury via Map CA

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Travel from York to Wolverhampton via BY must include Birmingham Group. Birmingham Group is also on CA. Therefore the routeing guide does not require switching maps at the first overlapping routeing point reached.

If this were a requirement, I imagine it would result in lots of cases where the permitted routes differed in opposite directions as the first overlapping routeing point in one direction may not be the first in the reverse direction.

lyndhurst25 said:

In that case, what is the point of offering map combinations such as SY+WK for journeys from Sheffield to Bradford, when Sheffield and Bradford appear on both maps? I thought that you were allowed to "overlap" maps and change between them wherever you chose, provided that you use the maps in strict order, do not rely on returning to a previously used map after having left it, and do not double back through any station.

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island said:

I don't believe that is stated anywhere.

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I was under the impression that you had to change at the first opportunity, but looking at the Section F of the Routeing Guide it doesn't actually say this anyway. I'm not sure where I picked up this understanding from, but at least I know now!

If the route code has several maps, route tracing must observe the following rules:

1. Tracing must start at one of the ends of the route code.
2. All maps must be used.
3. Maps must be used in strict sequence, first to last or last to first, according to the end of the route code where reading began.
4. Tracing may move from map to map only at a point where the two maps touch.
5. Once route tracing has left a map it cannot return to it.
6. Journeys may not double back except between stations which are members of a routeing point group for interchange or unless an easement permits it.

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I still don't think any of the map combinations help you complete your journey, though.

lyndhurst25 said:

EDIT - hang on... I have just noticed that Mirfield is a member of Huddesfield Routeing Group. Does that have any significance, such as allowing travel from Wakefield to Halifax on Grand Central using map WK, after all?

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I agree with you, map WK on its own should permit Sheffield-Meadowhall-Swinton-Doncaster-Wakefield-Mirfield-Halifax-Bradford, since Mirfield is in Huddersfield Group, provided you avoid Pontefract.

As for travelling via an alternative (not normally permitted) route, i.e. Pontefract, owing to cancellations, when you do not yet have a validly routed ticket for your preferred route, I'm not sure what the correct position is.

NRE seems to allow Sheffield-Meadowhall-Rotherhsm-Swinton-Doncaster-Wakefield-Mirfield-Halifax-Bradford without having to

jawr256 said:

I agree with you, map WK on its own should permit Sheffield-Meadowhall-Swinton-Doncaster-Wakefield-Mirfield-Halifax-Bradford, since Mirfield is in Huddersfield Group, provided you avoid Pontefract.

As for travelling via an alternative (not normally permitted) route, i.e. Pontefract, owing to cancellations, when you do not yet have a validly routed ticket for your preferred route, I'm not sure what the correct position is.

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NRE seems to allow Sheffield-Meadowhall-Rotherham-Swinton-Doncaster-Wakefield-Mirfield-Halifax-Bradford without having to offer multiple tickets, so after some doubts, I am now convinced that it would indeed have been a valid route.

I'm going to excess my ticket to route "any permitted" at Doncaster booking office, as time will allow that. Then I am going to catch the 16:31 Grand Central train from Doncaster to Bradford, that unfortunately goes via Pontefract, and hope that I don't get any earache about technically being off route (which is entirely due to Grand Central cancelling their following 18:02 train).



As an aside, any idea why LNER aren't running trains to Bradford or Keighley/Skipton today?

lyndhurst25 said:

...
As an aside, any idea why LNER aren't running trains to Bradford or Keighley/Skipton today?

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Due to the Northern strike. Not sure why it impacts them, are they northern operated stations that northern don't deem worth operating today perhaps?

EDIT: I've had a look - Northern operates those 3 stations, so with Northern drivers being on strike it seems possible they thought it wasn't worth operating those stations today. That said, I have nothing to back this up - other than LNER stating on their disruption page that they aren't operating to West Yorkshire as much as normal today due to the Northern strikes but no reason is given.

lyndhurst25 said:

As an aside, any idea why LNER aren't running trains to Bradford or Keighley/Skipton today?

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I would guess that it is due to the overtime ban, that cutting out such services improves the resilience of the core services.

Haywain said:

I would guess that it is due to the overtime ban, that cutting out such services improves the resilience of the core services.

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There is no industrial action at LNER on Wednesday 31 January however, LNER will run a reduced service to and from West Yorkshire due to strike action at Northern on this day.​

There will be no LNER services to or from Bradford, Skipton or Hull.

Services on other LNER routes will run as normal.

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800Travel said:

Industrial action

Find out if industrial action could impact your journey.

www.lner.co.uk

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If you are going to quote something you could give the source. But the LNER page you link to seems to suggest that they don't regard the overtime ban as industrial action. There is no doubt that ASLEF members at LNER are in dispute with the company, and that the national overtime ban that is part of that dispute will apply to those drivers.

Haywain said:

If you are going to quote something you could give the source. But the LNER page you link to seems to suggest that they don't regard the overtime ban as industrial action. There is no doubt that ASLEF members at LNER are in dispute with the company, and that the national overtime ban that is part of that dispute will apply to those drivers.

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What do you mean about giving the source please? On the post you've replied to, I put the relevant text section then included a link to my source.

LNER were running to Harrogate, and Grand Central were running to Bradford Interchange though. Both stations having no other services due to the Northern strike.

Anyway, all of the collective head scratching over permitted routes between Sheffield and Steeton was academic. At no point in my journey did anyone ask to inspect my ticket. Doncaster ticket office issued the excess fare without any problems.

After that the only problem was having to stand for over half an hour in the street in Bradford in the pouring rain waiting for a bus to Keighley. Bradford Interchange bus station currently being closed.

lyndhurst25 said:

After that the only problem was having to stand for over half an hour in the street in Bradford in the pouring rain waiting for a bus to Keighley. Bradford Interchange bus station currently being closed.

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Sounds like your day for bad luck. Bustimes shows the 1755 as cancelled, the 1807 started at Saltaire, with the 1819 and 1833 following one another at 1834. If you do the journey at all regularly, note that the Interchange is likely to be closed for some months.