A single train ticket bought today from Heathrow Terminal 2 or 3 to Wokingham via Reading costs £51.70 (Heathrow T2/3 to Hayes & Harlington, change to GWR or Elizabeth Line to Reading, then change to SWR or another GWR service to Wokingham). A single ticket to Reading costs £23.30. A single from Reading to Wokingham costs £3.90 (£27.20 in total). I've been trying to find out who sets this fare and all three line operators (TfL, GWR, SWR) deny it's them. GWR and SWR say it's TfL because that's where the journey originates. TfL don't say who it is, they just say it's not them. I have also contacted ORR and DfT. ORR say they don't decide who sets fares, that's DfT. DfT said it's National Rail, but when challenged agreed NR don't set any fares, so they are looking into it, but it may take 4 weeks to respond. Does anyone have any idea how to resolve this? How is the fare set for a journey such as this which covers 3 different operators' lines?
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Who sets the fare?
- Thread starter clivech
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bcarmicle
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The £51.70 fare from Heathrow to Wokingham is set by GWR, see https://www.brfares.com/!expert?orig=3081&dest=WKM&period=20240205
BRFares indicates the fare setter.
In this case, the "Any Permitted" fares (which aren't valid via London) are set by GWR, with SWR setting fares routed via Ascot/Guildford and via Staines (both of the latter routes being valid via London.)
The through fare is likely to be calculated as a combination of the normal fare for the bulk of the journey plus a Heathrow add-on, rather than directly priced.
In this case, the "Any Permitted" fares (which aren't valid via London) are set by GWR, with SWR setting fares routed via Ascot/Guildford and via Staines (both of the latter routes being valid via London.)
The through fare is likely to be calculated as a combination of the normal fare for the bulk of the journey plus a Heathrow add-on, rather than directly priced.
Priced assuming passengers go via Reading and Paddington, then use Heathrow Express.
I think that's the issue. I still have to weed out the Heathrow express option for similar journeys, because they go for the quickest route on a journey planner.
Fawkes Cat
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I can see why this upsets you, and it looks as if you are trying to do the right thing for other people who may face this problem. But the obvious workround for you (and anyone else who knows about the discrepancy) is to buy separate tickets from Heathrow to Reading, and then from Reading to Wokingham: 'split ticketing' like this is entirely within the rules and apart from meaning more messing round when booking the tickets is no more inconvenient than buying the through ticket.
Having looked it up myself on a ticket sales site it identified that fare for the Hayes and Harlington route. I can only imagine it's a bizarre leftover from when Heathrow Express was the only mainline rail option for such a journey from Heathrow. They've updated the fare to Reading, but not to places connected to Reading.
An even bigger ripoff is the fare to Earley, the first station out of Reading on the Wokingham line. The fare is £49.20! That's a mark up of about £26 for travelling about 4 miles beyond Reading.
If you do the same comparison for tickets from Paddington, the uplift for Reading to Earley is 30p!
A complaint to GWR would look to be in order
An even bigger ripoff is the fare to Earley, the first station out of Reading on the Wokingham line. The fare is £49.20! That's a mark up of about £26 for travelling about 4 miles beyond Reading.
If you do the same comparison for tickets from Paddington, the uplift for Reading to Earley is 30p!
A complaint to GWR would look to be in order
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SargeNpton
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Dare I suggest Heathrow to Reading on the RailAir bus and then Reading-Wokingham on the train. Heathrow to Wokingham all by rail is one of those journeys that is illogical to take.
There's a rich seam of pricing nonsense here. The single fare from Hayes and Harlington to Earley is £18.30
Slightly cheaper too £22 single to Reading on Railair, and they pick up at the terminals rather than deep underground after several travelators.
Mcr Warrior
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Indeed. Always seems a tad bizarre to me that, on odd occasions, a particular TOC will be setting fares between station pairs, where they, themselves, don't operate any train services, for all (or even part) of the relevant route.
DanNCL
Established Member
Another suggestion, maybe slower but could save quite a bit of money, would be to get a local bus to Staines, Ashford or Feltham and get the train from one of those.
The 555/556 go from Terminals 2/3/4 to Ashford, the 442 goes from Terminal 5 to Staines, and the 490 goes from Terminals 4 and 5 to Feltham. There may be other buses too. The 490 is a TFL bus, the 442 and 555/556 aren’t.
I don’t know how viable that is in practice just an idea that may be worth looking at as an alternative to anything via Reading.
The 555/556 go from Terminals 2/3/4 to Ashford, the 442 goes from Terminal 5 to Staines, and the 490 goes from Terminals 4 and 5 to Feltham. There may be other buses too. The 490 is a TFL bus, the 442 and 555/556 aren’t.
I don’t know how viable that is in practice just an idea that may be worth looking at as an alternative to anything via Reading.
If we're looking at local bus solutions, then taking the Superloop 9 bus from Heathrow Central bus station to Hayes and Harlington saves much of the Heathrow rail surcharge. Then it's one ticket at the lower fare to Wokingham via Reading
Right, there is no "not via london" or "not heathrow express" fare defined for that journey. There are three different route options "ANY PERMITTED", "✠ASCOT/GUILDFORD" and "✠VIA STAINES" but all of them are priced on the assumption you will use the heathrow express to paddington to start your journey.
paul1609
Established Member
There's under £50 options on Uber. 'Unless it's a daily work trip why would anyone faff around with public transport requiring multiple changes on a 26 mile airport trip?
Alex365Dash
Member
Having a look at the 490, it looks like it might actually be quicker than the train via Hayes & Harlington if Terminal 5 is OP’s starting point. Plus there’s only the one change at Feltham after you’re out of Heathrow!
EDIT: Just realised OP is starting from Heathrow Central - possibly the 555/556 might be better in terms of less changes?
But Route RAILAIR READING fares can be way out of kilter too.
- £30.00 : Reading Bus - Heathrow Bus
- £38.80 : Wokingham - Heathrow Bus
are both fine, but ...
- £62.80 : Blackwater - Heathrow Bus
... is not fine. The fare is £24 higher than from Wokingham, which works out at £1.88 for each extra mile travelled.
If the Blackwater fare were to be priced using the same methodology as for Wokingham it would be £40.60.
(Yes, I'm aware of the new, good-value hourly Flightline 731 service to T5 that stops in Frimley and Camberley, but GWR really ought to sort out its pricing in any event)
Depends where you live. Uber aren't licensed to operate in Reading or in Hampshire, to give two examples.
It would be the other way round from Heathrow, taking Heathrow Express first. But even then it makes no sense: that would affect the fare to Reading too. It's over £25 for the 7 miles from Reading to Wokingham.
This is not for me. I use the RailAir link bus from Heathrow to Reading: it's quicker and not horribly expensive. This is for any unsuspecting customer who buys a single ticket all the way through and doesn't realise they are being gouged. (You can't get a split fare from a machine at Heathrow.) It is quite probably illegal for GWR to charge this much for the last 7 miles of the journey. I'm working on getting them to change it.
Excellent analysis! I will use this when I talk to them tomorrow.
That's what I usually do. There's an even cheaper one via Feltham, but you have to walk to Central Bus Station from the terminal. But Joe Public doesn't know it's illogical and will probably choose it assuming it's quicker than taking a bus.
GWR does operate from Reading to Wokingham (non-stop, while it's 4 stops on SWR). But it's an SWR line.
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How exactly would it be illegal? They are free to set the price for their services as they see fit; they clearly don't hold a dominant position in the (very small) market for travel between Heathrow and Wokingham and so they cannot be abusing that position.
I don't see that it is any different in principle to how, on the Elizabeth line, it will cost you £3.50 at Off-Peak times to travel from central London to Hayes & Harlington - but £12.20 to go one stop further to Heathrow.
Expensive, unreasonable and unfair? Certainly! But that doesn't make it illegal.
Good luck... These kinds of illogical fares have, in many cases, been around for years. I would be surprised if you managed to convince GWR to change them.
Do the machines not offer the facility to buy tickets from other stations?
Even if they do not, they certainly provide ticket collection facilities. So you can use any split ticket retailer of your choosing and collect your split tickets at the machine.
I used to use it all the time via Feltham, but they've made the service less attractive: you now have to walk from the bus stop on the main road to the station in Feltham. It's a pain if you have luggage, although it's only 200 yards or so. In fact it's a pain with luggage on the bus itself! There's hardly anywhere to put bags...
Out of interest, how do you know that? When I put the route in on GWR's site it routes me through Hayes & Harlington, not Paddington.
The thing is, railways are still regulated. If it were the local corner shop they would be free to act as they see fit. But rail companies have to act in the public interest, and if it can be shown they are charging punitive, deceptive or discriminatory pricing, they can be made to change them. As you say, it's a long shot GWR will respond positively of their own volition, but with a bit of exposure from, say, Which? magazine, that might change quite quickly.
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They don't. Indeed, it is almost certainly the DfT that is content with the fares being charged. Who exactly is going to make them change the fares?
The way that a fare is priced, and the default itineraries that appear on journey planners, are not necessarily the same.
Fares are priced based on their validity. The fact that the fare has a Maltese cross (✠ symbol) is the giveaway here: this signifies that it is valid on Underground services to cross London and thus it must be valid (and intended to be valid) via London. Since the fares aren't routed to exclude the use of the Heathrow Express, they are valid on it and that explains the high pricing.
Default itineraries are generated based on the fastest available route, or the route with the fewest changes. Since trains now run more frequently between Heathrow and Hayes & Harlington (and Hayes & Harlington and Reading) than before the full Elizabeth line timetable was introduced, this means this changing at Hayes & Harlington is now often the fastest route. In the past travelling via Paddington would often have been quicker, which explains why the fares were created and priced the way they are.
Clearly there are differences, but railways are mainly regulated in a safety context. There is much less regulation in other contexts, and certainly no duty to act in a fair manner to customers as is the case in the financial sector, for example. Even the minimal non-safety regulation that does exist, such as the Passenger Rights and Obligations Regulation (PRO), is hardly ever enforced.
Unfortunately they don't - they are merely private companies acting as contractors to the government. Even the government isn't legally obliged to act in the public interest, and indeed in many ways it could be said that it isn't doing so in the context of railways and public transport.
There are also lots of facets to the public interest. Some might argue it's in the public interest for fares to be as high as possible (even if this reduces in fewer people travelling by rail) if this is what maximises revenue and thus minimises taxpayer subsidy. I'd certainly disagree with that - but it's not as simple as saying that the public interest necessarily dictates one course of action.
Whilst I'll readily agree that the pricing to Wokingham is punitive in the context of the most likely route for journeys, it's not deceptive, nor can I see how it's discriminating against anyone in particular (let alone a protected characteristic, if that's what you're alluding to?).
They can only be made to change it through political pressure, but this seems such a niche issue that I would be very surprised if you manage to attract any attention to it.
It's a very noble issue to campaign about but I can't help feeling you will have more success if you focus on the fares being unreasonable, rather than an (unfounded) allegation of illegality.
Haywain
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Yes, of course they would.
Wouldn't an "unsuspecting customer" do fairly well just paying the £12.50 single between Wokingham and Feltham though?
I agree very much that the closure of the level crossing at Feltham has caused the location of the bus stops to become quite poor, and the bus itself, though very frequent, isn't especially enjoyable with a large bag. But this single change option is cheap, not too slow, and only one change. Let's say a taxi typically costs £45, this option at £13.25 is over 70% cheaper. Worth it for one change, albeit not a brilliantly convenient one.
Those in the know who are travelling on Sundays or any time after midday can split at Virginia Water for a further saving of £1.80.
I agree strongly with your aims as political questions, but I think in reality nobody is going to be buying these tickets at over £50.
They're regulated strictly for safety.
Financial and commercial regulation don't really exist and haven't for many years. The ORR have some economic regulation, but wash their hands of anything to do with consumers, so the Department is "marking its own homework".
pepperpot80
Member
Setting aside the excellent exploration of this particular journey's options, I'd just like to,
- highlight this chain of glorious incompetence by 'the railway', and
- state my high respect to all on this thread for not stooping to this low-hanging fruit and instead answering the OP's question helpfully and at length.
...which is beyond parody.
You have framed the issue in your head as "the fare is wrong" when the real issue is "the fare you want doesn't exist".
Almost all fares from Heathrow were/are set based on the assumption that you would take the heathrow express (probablly the most expensive train service in the country) to London. Then take a regular train service from London to whereever you are going. After all when the station opened that was the only option. Some "flows" (origin/destination) combinations have had extra fares added but most have not.
PhilipRdNGauge
Member
If you are going to Terminal 5, the little 442X from Staines station is probably most convenient. It's only a Merc Sprinter, but fairly whizzes along avoiding most of Stanwell unlike the regular 442.
I'm fairly sure that this is right and strongly suspect a "cock-up" rather than a conspiracy. It just got left behind for the Wokingham line because it is mildly obscure journey.
The best way to get it sorted would be to get MPs and local press involved. Is the lovely Mr Redwood still MP for Wokingham?
The Rail Ombudsman.
Haywain
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You are joking, aren't you? The Rail Ombudsman who, incidentally, is generally seen as being of little use for anything has no power in the setting of fares.
To your first point, if the itinerary this fare was based on was via Paddington, the Reading fare would also be much higher. It isn't, and as an earlier contributor to this discussion said, it looks like they adjusted the fares to the new reality of Terminal 2 - Hayes/Harlington - Reading, but not for stations beyond Reading.
As I understand it, the Rail Ombudsman's job is indeed to determine if the rail companies have acted unreasonably, so political pressure may not be necessary or worthwhile. I have contacted Which? about it, and they may be able to apply concentrated public pressure, although I'm not sure I'd describe it as political. The deceptiveness is in the fact that if you are unlucky enough to buy a single ticket for £51.70 you have been deceived into thinking this reflects a reasonable fare in relation to the fare for other stations on this route, which it clearly doesn't. It is discriminatory against those who buy tickets to Earley, Winnersh, Wokingham etc. because they are paying an enormous premium for the extra few miles beyond Reading, which doesn't apply to those who stop at Reading and go no further or buy a single to Wokingham from Reading.
I wish it were true that people don't buy these tickets. We recently had an American come to stay with us and he bought one because he doesn't know what to compare it with. He just thought it was what he would have to pay on British railways.