Paid for e-ticket - phone died, penalty fare issued, first appeal unsuccessful.

MaxM said:

This is great @John Palmer , thank you for you detailed research. While at no point did I specify I wanted the journey on the penalty fare to travel to London Blackfriars, he did ask me to fill in a form on his iPad with my intended station.

Could they argue against the appeal on this basis?

@WesternLancer appreciate your contribution to this too.

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I suspect they could maybe - but I can't see you have much other grounds to appeal on and you are close to the deadline to submit one IIRC.

It's basically a way to not tell you that you would have been within your rights to say (as I understand it) that you would get off at the next stop, legitimise your ticket (buy the correct one or charge your phone). But it seems standard way of doing things to ask the passenger where they are travelling to (as opposed to saying the ticket is invalid, do you want a new one to your intended destination, or a new one to the next station where you can then get off and start again) - or this is how it seems to me.

Happy to be corrected by other forum members

MaxM said:

This is great @John Palmer , thank you for you detailed research. While at no point did I specify I wanted the journey on the penalty fare to travel to London Blackfriars, he did ask me to fill in a form on his iPad with my intended station.

Could they argue against the appeal on this basis?

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I think that would depend upon the nature of the form you were invited to fill in, and what you were told would be the consequence of accepting the collector's invitation to make an entry upon it.

If it was clear, either from the wording of the form itself or from any explanation from the collector of the form's purpose, that you were being asked to specify a destination to which you wanted the penalty fare to authorise travel, and that the penalty fare charged would include the full single fare from the station at which you boarded to that destination rather than the (potentially smaller) fare to the train's next calling point, then by entering 'London Blackfriars' on the form I consider you would have 'specified' a station in a way that comes within the scope of Regulation 5(5A)(a), and that the penalty fare's issue was consequently in accordance with the Regulations - meaning that an appeal on the ground I suggested should fail.

However, if there was nothing said by the collector or in the form's wording to indicate that its completion was being sought to ensure compliance with the Regulations' requirements as regards the scope of the penalty fare's authority for onward travel then I do not see how it could be argued that entry of the intended station was made in the context of 'specifying' a station for the purposes of Regulation 5(5A)(a). In effect, any such entry would be context-free and as such could not be the specification of a station for the purpose of that Regulation.

The view I take is that the Regulations' default position is to authorise travel (in England) to the train's next calling point for a fare of “£100 plus the price of the full single fare” from the boarding station to “the next station at which the train is due to call” (See Regulation 9(1A) of the 2018 Regulations). It is not within the operator's power to fix a more distant destination to which the penalty fare authorises travel at a commensurately higher fare unless the PF's recipient requests this in the knowledge that the fare charged will be greater than that applicable to the default case, thereby giving informed consent to the higher charge. No doubt 99 out of 100 penalty fare recipients will be content to have a penalty fare's authority to travel to their originally intended destination, but it would be wrong in principle for an operator to be able to supplant a passenger's decision as to how far he wishes to travel, particularly if such an ability could enlarge that operator's revenue from the journey without the passenger's knowledge.

Even though I carry a power pack. I've always worried that I dropped my phone smashed the screen I wouldn't be able to show the ticket.
So I copy the eticket to my laptop just in case.

I feel the railway should do better on this, it feels to be anti-customer. I feel there should be a process where if you can show you bought a e-ticket in your name, the penalty should be smaller maybe £10.

Or perhaps they could make a code which links to your online account, which you could print out once and carry with you as a backup, so if you have a phone fail, the staff member could use the code to lookup your recent eticket purchases on your account to check you had bought a ticket, and check the account is in your name.

bubieyehyeh said:

Even though I carry a power pack. I've always worried that I dropped my phone smashed the screen I wouldn't be able to show the ticket.
So I copy the eticket to my laptop just in case.

I feel the railway should do better on this, it feels to be anti-customer. I feel there should be a process where if you can show you bought a e-ticket in your name, the penalty should be smaller maybe £10.

Or perhaps they could make a code which links to your online account, which you could print out once and carry with you as a backup, so if you have a phone fail, the staff member could use the code to lookup your recent eticket purchases on your account to check you had bought a ticket, and check the account is in your name.

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That's fine but if you can't show your eTicket it can't be scanned leaving it available to be refunded.

bubieyehyeh said:

Or perhaps they could make a code which links to your online account, which you could print out once and carry with you as a backup

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Is that in addition to the eTicket that you can print out and carry as a backup?

Really appreciate all the contributions, thank you. I have submitted my appeal on the basis @John Palmer gave and we will see. I will post the result here.

If unsuccessful, I will check Brighton station signage as mentioned.

Haywain said:

Is that in addition to the eTicket that you can print out and carry as a backup?

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A possible alternative. The print out and carry doesn't seem very green if you are using etickets regularly.

I just feel there should be a way for fare paying customers who have a occasional issue with their phone, who can later show you had a eticket, get a lesser penalty than people who never bought a ticket.

I think there a rule if you forget your railcard but prove it later, they cancel if it the first time that year - so something like that.

Wallsendmag said:

That's fine but if you can't show your eTicket it can't be scanned leaving it available to be refunded.

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Surely when you provide the eticket, it can be scanned and checked it not already be refunded, before cancelling/reducing the penalty

bubieyehyeh said:

A possible alternative. The print out and carry doesn't seem very green if you are using etickets regularly.

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You talked about printing out a code, and I can see no real difference to printing out a ticket.

Wallsendmag said:

That's fine but if you can't show your eTicket it can't be scanned leaving it available to be refunded.

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Well they will still have the details of the passenger and if it is later matched to a refund, then go ahead and sanction them.

And use the Railcard rule of one let off per year if proof of purchase is shown later and ticket is recorded as used, as surely most people won't have the same problem twice in a short space of time.

It would make the railway a lot more customer friendly in one easy stroke.

Haywain said:

You talked about printing out a code, and I can see no real difference to printing out a ticket.

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If the “print out a code” was a code that identifies the holder’s account, then I guess it would only need to be printed once then stashed in a wallet / phone case / whatever

Printing out a ticket obviously has to happen every time

Given in these days of working from home that less people have easy access to printers, it does seem a bit different

This was the content of my second appeal for which I am still awaiting an update:


I travelled on the 9:28 train on 16th January 2024 from Brighton to Bedford.I started my journey at Brighton and my intended destination was London Blackfriars. I arrived at London Blackfriars at 10:41.

I bought a valid e-ticket for travel as enclosed as evidence. I could not produce it on inspection as my phone battery died.

I am appealing in respect to Regulation 5(5A) of the Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 (as amended), which is in the following terms:

“In respect of England, the penalty fare charged under paragraph (1) to a person travelling by or present on a train authorises a person to travel to—
(a) a station in England at which the train is due to make a scheduled call that they may specify, if the collector considers that this is reasonable in all the circumstances; or
(b) otherwise, the next station at which the train is due to make a scheduled call.”

My penalty fare notice as enclosed authorises me to travel to London Blackfriars. As can be seen on the following website


the train was either approaching Haywards Heath or at Haywards Heath.

At no point did I specify that I wanted the Penalty Fare to authorise travel to London Blackfriars and at no point was I made aware that I had an option to get off at the next station with a reduced charge (the ticket to Haywards Heath from Brighton is 8 pounds which would result in a penalty charge of £8 + £100 pounds penalty fare, as opposed to £21.50 + £100 penalty fare for London Blackfriars). This would also have afforded me the opportunity to charge my phone at the next station and validate my ticket as there were no charging points on the Thameslink train. I was not informed when the penalty fare was being issued that I was being asked to specify a destination to which the penalty fare would authorise travel and that this would affect the total fine.

Early last year I was travelling on NorthernRail, from Newcastle to Seaham and my phone died, while in Seaham .. it was a pretty cold day, which had some effect. It was actually my first train trip for several years, having bought a few day return tickets in the NR sale

I returned to the station and awaited the arrival of my train.

I explained the situation to the guard who let me on .. I think (hope) he saw I was genuine. Sitting in the warm train, my phone sprung back to life, so I was keen to show my ticket. The guard wasn't really bothered, saying he believed me ... but it made me feel better showing the ticket. The guard just laughed.

I noted the following day the penalty fare was to jump to £100

The next day I ordered a power bank and for all trips since then, I print out a paper ticket and take the powerbank too.

Brissle Girl said:

If you had a phone that you knew was unreliable, such as powering down at 30%, you should either not use it or carry a power bank.

The clue is in the very words you used - not reliable, which means you cannot rely on it.

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Best of both worlds; print the ticket and have it on your phone!

I do that when flying. In 99% of cases I use the phone, but I always have it on paper.

(And yes this does mean having to own a printer, but they're useful for many things - like printing off insurance certificates for easier reference than searching emails, hard drives or cloud backups etc).

MaxM said:

<snip>...
This would also have afforded me the opportunity to charge my phone at the next station and validate my ticket as there were no charging points on the Thameslink train.

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For future reference there are power sockets in first class. First class at the rear of the train is declassified and is hence available to you for travelling and recharging purposes!

jon0844 said:

(And yes this does mean having to own a printer, but they're useful for many things - like printing off insurance certificates for easier reference than searching emails, hard drives or cloud backups etc).

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Blimey. I just have a folder in my email account called "current stuff" and the emails for my car / house / travel insurance / breakdown recovery etc etc go in there, then when I renew its one out and one in

SteveM70 said:

Blimey. I just have a folder in my email account called "current stuff" and the emails for my car / house / travel insurance / breakdown recovery etc etc go in there, then when I renew its one out and one in

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I use Google Drive for this. Even easier than searching Gmail or creating folders.

When I've needed to actually make a claim, a printout is better. I can scribble notes on it, and don't have to sit at my computer.. Later I take a photo of the page and file it back on Drive (I usually photograph all receipts and documents, especially when Google pays me 20p or so for every receipt) but you do whatever works for you.

You can see why etickets are so appealing to the railway. If a TVM breaks they risk losing revenue. If a passenger's phone breaks they can charge for the ticket all over again and add a nice little extra on top!

Imagine if each passenger got £50 every time a failure of railway-owned technology delayed their journey.

Jim the Jim said:

You can see why etickets are so appealing to the railway. If a TVM breaks they risk losing revenue. If a passenger's phone breaks they can charge for the ticket all over again and add a nice little extra on top!

Imagine if each passenger got £50 every time a failure of railway-owned technology delayed their journey.

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I have to be fair had a heck of a lot more than £50 out of the railway when its technology (i.e. a unit failure) has delayed my journey.

The issue of being able to specify the next stop is important, as the drafters of the Penalty Fare legislation recognised. This is especially so when the passenger has actually already paid for the journey. TransPennine, for instance, which is a Penalty Fare operator, has some really long distance services where the difference between a Railcard discounted Advance fare and a non-discounted Anytime fare can be considerable

fandroid said:

The issue of being able to specify the next stop is important, as the drafters of the Penalty Fare legislation recognised. This is especially so when the passenger has actually already paid for the journey. TransPennine, for instance, which is a Penalty Fare operator, has some really long distance services where the difference between a Railcard discounted Advance fare and a non-discounted Anytime fare can be considerable

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Indeed. The idea is that the passenger is given the option to leave the train (if necessary) and resolve the ticketing irregularity for the remainder of the journey. But also the option not to do so if they prefer to pay the higher fare to continue, if time is of the essence.

It doesn't sound like some staff are giving them the options clearly enough.

talldave said:

For future reference there are power sockets in first class. First class at the rear of the train is declassified and is hence available to you for travelling and recharging purposes!

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Thank you, it would have been nice if the ticket inspector informed me of this...

Bletchleyite said:

Indeed. The idea is that the passenger is given the option to leave the train (if necessary) and resolve the ticketing irregularity for the remainder of the journey.

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Also, it has to be borne in mind that with smartphones and etickets, something the rail industry is promoting heavily, the passenger can potentially purchase the ongoing ticket without leaving the train. Not revealing that the passenger can choose their next action is deeply unfair on the vast majority who do not follow the ins and outs of the Penalty Fare Regulations.

Edited (cleared out a repetitive and unwanted quote box)

Somewhere said:

Would it be logical to say the only part of the Penalty Fare due is the £100, as the rest has already been paid for with the ticket that was unable to be produced?

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No, the fare is payable in addition to the £50/£100.

I really think the railway needs to be customer friendly in these sorts of circumstances. You go to a museum or wherever where you've bought a ticket in advance, they can sort you out if you haven't got your phone or a printout with you. The railway should be the same - if you provide your email address, they should be able to print you the ticket you've paid for there and then off their machine

Somewhere said:

I really think the railway needs to be customer friendly in these sorts of circumstances. You go to a museum or wherever where you've bought a ticket in advance, they can sort you out if you haven't got your phone or a printout with you. The railway should be the same - if you provide your email address, they should be able to print you the ticket you've paid for there and then off their machine

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A couple of problems with this - firstly, if you haven’t got the ticket, it doesn’t mean someone else hasn’t.

And secondly, a ticket inspector has to get through a train checking maybe hundreds of tickets. If they have to stop to do what you suggest it will slow down their checking dramatically, especially if people know that’s an option and it becomes an acceptable thing to do.

Brissle Girl said:

A couple of problems with this - firstly, if you haven’t got the ticket, it doesn’t mean someone else hasn’t.

And secondly, a ticket inspector has to get through a train checking maybe hundreds of tickets. If they have to stop to do what you suggest it will slow down their checking dramatically, especially if people know that’s an option and it becomes an acceptable thing to do.

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They're fair enough points, but the ticket inspector had to go through the train anyway, what if everyone hasn't got their ticket with them? It would take even longer if they have to sell one/penalty fare/MG11 or whatever.

If someone else has the ticket, the technology exists to know its already been scanned on another train.

The railway really needs to be better. Half the staff don't understand tickets. Most of the passengers don't. We need to stop penalising the innocent

Somewhere said:

They're fair enough points, but the ticket inspector had to go through the train anyway, what if everyone hasn't got their ticket with them? It would take even longer if they have to sell one/penalty fare/MG11 or whatever.

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That’s exactly the point. Everyone won’t not have their ticket if the consequences are a penalty. If you make it acceptable because there is a workaround then the incentive won’t be there to make sure you have it, so over time the proportion without a ticket will increase, and slow things down for the ticket checker.

Brissle Girl said:

That’s exactly the point. Everyone won’t not have their ticket if the consequences are a penalty. If you make it acceptable because there is a workaround then the incentive won’t be there to make sure you have it, so over time the proportion without a ticket will increase, and slow things down for the ticket checker.

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Genuinely though, how may people will take advantage? Realistically, will more people take the proverbial than they do now?
Perhaps inspectors should carry USB cable round with them to allow people to show a valid ticket

Somewhere said:

I really think the railway needs to be customer friendly in these sorts of circumstances. You go to a museum or wherever where you've bought a ticket in advance, they can sort you out if you haven't got your phone or a printout with you. The railway should be the same - if you provide your email address, they should be able to print you the ticket you've paid for there and then off their machine

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And yet we went to a concert on Sunday evening where 2 people in front of us were refused entry as they didn't have their phones with their tickets with on with them, and hadn't printed them either, as all had been instructed to do.

And how would you expect (say) Avanti to have a copy of a ticket from Machynlleth to Euston that I have bought from the TfW website, when there is no centralised ticket regsiter?

Llanigraham said:

And yet we went to a concert on Sunday evening where 2 people in front of us were refused entry as they didn't have their phones with their tickets with on with them, and hadn't printed them either, as all had been instructed to do.

And how would you expect (say) Avanti to have a copy of a ticket from Machynlleth to Euston that I have bought from the TfW website, when there is no centralised ticket regsiter?

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There's posts on this forum that train companies are scrutinising Trainline and others on fishing expeditions, so surely train companies could go on that fishing expedition while the passenger is in front of them on the train?