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Rishi Sunak and the Conservative Party.

3141

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No. I was being satirical to point out that the government will time the election to suit itself, whatever other logic ought to apply. I thought the reference to the Express would highlight that.
Yes, of course it will. You could have made that point explicitly, as you have now done above. The way you put it in the original post doesn't make that point. You chose to contrast allegedly Conservative-voting Express-buying pensioners with exhausted working people unable to make it to the polling station to vote any other way. Another recent response to your post points out how easily people can place their vote if they can't do it on the day.
 
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brad465

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As I have said before, I think that at least some of the talk about October or November is misdirection by the Conservatives. Get the opposition parties to take their feet of the pedal and go for a slow build of momentum (small ‘m’), and then hit them with a snap election after a throwaway budget. It might even be earlier than May: there are almost certainly more unpleasant things to come out in a number of inquiries, including Covid and the sub-postmasters ones, due in the summer.
Another reason for going no later than the 2nd May is the Tories avoid another round of potential local election thrashings, which would damage them further. Most of the 2024 local election areas were contested in 2021, when Johnson's "vaccine bounce" helped make Tory gains from an already high point. Now this combined with high national polling for Labour means high Tory losses are almost inevitable.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Another reason for going no later than the 2nd May is the Tories avoid another round of potential local election thrashings, which would damage them further. Most of the 2024 local election areas were contested in 2021, when Johnson's "vaccine bounce" helped make Tory gains from an already high point. Now this combined with high national polling for Labour means high Tory losses are almost inevitable.
Indeed has the possibility of getting the local vote up that might not happen if there was a GE taking place but there really isn't anything they can do now to win so still reckon going long gives them maximum chance to reduce losses.
 

sor

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the other reason for 2nd May - it's the date that was fixed by the FTPA before it was repealed within this parliament (ie there's a case that going beyond that date is going into time that they ethically shouldn't have) and because it saves so much money and effort since it can be combined with the elections that are going on in much of the UK.
 

SteveM70

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the other reason for 2nd May - it's the date that was fixed by the FTPA before it was repealed within this parliament (ie there's a case that going beyond that date is going into time that they ethically shouldn't have) and because it saves so much money and effort since it can be combined with the elections that are going on in much of the UK.

Ethically?!?

These lot?
 

dgl

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Sensibly pensioners that have lived through WWII would have seen what happens when the right get in to power in a country and would then not want to vote for a party that seems to be lurching to the right.
Same thing about leaving the EU, a lot of pensioners would have seen what had happened when countries don't cooperate with each other and would not want a repeat of what happened back then as such a union of countries helps to stop the likes of the two world wars happening again.
 

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the other reason for 2nd May - it's the date that was fixed by the FTPA before it was repealed within this parliament (ie there's a case that going beyond that date is going into time that they ethically shouldn't have) ...
What do you mean by "time they shouldn't have"?

The short-lived FTPA (introduced to guarantee Nick Clegg and his mates the spare keys to No.10 for five years) has now been repealed. The current Parliament is entitled to sit for five years and need not be dissolved until 17th December 2024. There's no "ethical" consideration involved.

Same thing about leaving the EU, a lot of pensioners would have seen what had happened when countries don't cooperate with each other and would not want a repeat of what happened back then as such a union of countries helps to stop the likes of the two world wars happening again.
That must be why so many of them voted to leave the EU then.
 
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sor

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What do you mean by "time they shouldn't have"?

The short-lived FTPA (introduced to guarantee Nick Clegg and his mates the spare keys to No.10 for five years) has now been repealed. The current Parliament is entitled to sit for five years and need not be dissolved until 17th December 2024. There's no "ethical" consideration involved.
At the risk of repeating the obvious - when people voted in 2019, they did so in the knowledge that the next election was supposed to be this May. The Tories then granted themselves additional time through repealing the FTPA. It wasn't "short lived" in the sense that it had a defined end date. It was permanent legislation.

There absolutely is an ethical issue there. They gave themselves the maximum amount of time permissible under the parliament acts (any extension beyond 5 years can be indefinitely vetoed by the Lords) and they cannot seriously pretend that they had a right to do so. The correct approach would have been to adhere to the May date for this parliament - whether through law or a voluntary commitment - and then go to flexible 5 years max after that.

And as I said, there's a further ethical issue in that this government's attempts to cling on for possibly a couple more months is going to cost the taxpayer a lot of money to run a second national-scale election
 

Busaholic

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Not that many council seats come up for election in May i.e. only around 25% maximum, with many councils having no elections, and these outnumber the ones where every seat is up for election. For instance, there are no elections at all in Cornwall.
 

sor

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Not that many council seats come up for election in May i.e. only around 25% maximum, with many councils having no elections, and these outnumber the ones where every seat is up for election. For instance, there are no elections at all in Cornwall.
you'll still have the option of voting for the Police and Crime Commissioner, as does the whole of England and Wales (except where the mayor, who might be up for election, is also the PCC)
 

jfollows

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you'll still have the option of voting for the Police and Crime Commissioner, as does the whole of England and Wales (except where the mayor, who might be up for election, is also the PCC)
Using a first-past-the-post system for the PCC, I think.
 

northwichcat

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The short-lived FTPA (introduced to guarantee Nick Clegg and his mates the spare keys to No.10 for five years) has now been repealed. The current Parliament is entitled to sit for five years and need not be dissolved until 17th December 2024.

I'm not sure what you mean. Pre-2010 the PM could call an election at any point between 3 and 5 years after the previous one. The Conservatives normally did every 5, Labour normally did every 4 but when Gordon Brown decided to hold on until 5 years in the hope the economy would improve first, it led to calls for the rules to be changed. It wasn't just Clegg, a lot of the Tory supporting tabloids were labelling Brown as a squatter before the coalition government was formed.

The Lib Dems actually wanted a referendum on proportional representation - they didn't get one but we got a long-forgotten one on using the alternative vote instead.

At the risk of repeating the obvious - when people voted in 2019, they did so in the knowledge that the next election was supposed to be this May.

The previous election was 12 December 2019. Boris called it after trying to regain the majority that had been lost when May called an election. He also tried to change the composition of Conservatives in parliament to get Brexit through. The main reason May hadn't got it through was because over 50% of the MPs elected to parliament weren't going to vote for a Brexit deal that had disadvantages over remaining in the EU.
 

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At the risk of repeating the obvious - when people voted in 2019, they did so in the knowledge that the next election was supposed to be this May. The Tories then granted themselves additional time through repealing the FTPA.
If they cast their vote on that basis they had not done their research. A commitment to repeal the FTPA (actually "get rid of" were the words used) was included in the 2019 Conservative manifesto. But leaving that aside, I find it hard to accept that a voter would cast his vote quite happily when knowing that the party he voted for would only be in power for four years and five months, but would think twice about voting for them if they knew they would remain in power for seven months more.

It wasn't "short lived" in the sense that it had a defined end date. It was permanent legislation.
It was no more permanent than any other legislation, any of which can be repealed by Parliament. I only used the term "short lived" because it lived for a comparatively short time.

I'm not sure what you mean. Pre-2010 the PM could call an election at any point between 3 and 5 years after the previous one. The Conservatives normally did every 5, Labour normally did every 4 but when Gordon Brown decided to hold on until 5 years in the hope the economy would improve first, it led to calls for the rules to be changed. It wasn't just Clegg, a lot of the Tory supporting tabloids were labelling Brown as a squatter before the coalition government was formed.
As far as I can recall, pre-2010 the PM could call a GE any time he or she saw fit. In 1974 there were two GEs in eight months.

Whilst the proposal for a FTPA was included in both the Labour and LibDem 2010 manifestos, no such proposal was included in the Conservative programme. I was being sarcastic when I mentioned the "spare keys" for Mr Clegg, but the proposal for a FTPA was included in the Coalition Agreement. I can't imagine it would have reared its head had the Conservatives been returned with an overall majority.
 

jfollows

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Whilst the proposal for a FTPA was included in both the Labour and LibDem 2010 manifestos, no such proposal was included in the Conservative programme. I was being sarcastic when I mentioned the "spare keys" for Mr Clegg, but the proposal for a FTPA was included in the Coalition Agreement. I can't imagine it would have reared its head had the Conservatives been returned with an overall majority.
Yes, it was a tactical piece of legislation designed to hold the coalition together, which it did, but it was dressed up as a serious constitutional change, whereas it was a mess, and both the 2017 and 2019 elections got into a mess (especially the latter) because of it.
I saw nothing wrong in allowing the prime minister to decide the date of the election, so I'm glad it's gone.
I was surprised how easily it was eliminated because I watched some serious discussion before it was in which doubts were expressed that it was possible to "give back" royal prerogative which had been taken away. However it turned out not to be such a problem in reality, thank goodness.
EDIT I was greatly amused at the time in 2019 by Boris Johnson's inability to get an election called, but in hindsight it was just silliness which should have been avoided, and it didn't really change anything.
 

Busaholic

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you'll still have the option of voting for the Police and Crime Commissioner, as does the whole of England and Wales (except where the mayor, who might be up for election, is also the PCC)
Oh, wow, some stooge for whichever party is in power locally, with no real actual powers and even less interest in bringing any 'democracy' to our self-serving police forces. There may be the honourable exception who does try their best, but it is a non-job which builds up an expensive bureaucracy to service it. I normally always vote in every election, but I won't in principle for PCCs.
 

Gloster

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Oh, wow, some stooge for whichever party is in power locally, with no real actual powers and even less interest in bringing any 'democracy' to our self-serving police forces. There may be the honourable exception who does try their best, but it is a non-job which builds up an expensive bureaucracy to service it. I normally always vote in every election, but I won't in principle for PCCs.

This was just about the only occasion I agreed about anything with Blair (Ian, not Tony). He commented that even though we should always vote because it was something that had been fought for, he wouldn’t vote in PCC-elections as it was such an ill-thought out and ridiculous idea.
 

ainsworth74

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That must be why so many of them voted to leave the EU then.
Most pensioners in 2016 were, at best, young children when WW2 was being fought so would have no or only very little memory of the conflict. To have firm meaningful memories of the conflict you'd like need to have been born in the 1920s putting them around the mid-80s or older when the referendum took place.

The ONS tells us that: "In mid-2016, there were 1.6 million people aged 85 years and over (2% of the total population)" and that "In 2016, there were 11.8 million UK residents aged 65 years and over, representing 18% of the total population" so somewhere in the region of 10 million people were aged between 65 and 84. Someone aged 84 in 2016 would have been in their early teens when the war ended so probably has some memories but by the time you're down at 80 they would have been nine when the war ended, they might have some memories but not very many.

I'm not sure it's really sustainable to just equate pensioner with lived through the war and remembers it even in 2016 (even less so now of course!).

I can't, off hand, find much in the way of polling that breaks down by age above 65. Though Ipsos appears to have done so and found that 65 - 74 voted 64:33 in favour of Leave whilst 75+ voted 63:37 a slight decline. I wonder what 85+ (those that really would remember the war) might look like.
 

sor

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Oh, wow, some stooge for whichever party is in power locally, with no real actual powers and even less interest in bringing any 'democracy' to our self-serving police forces. There may be the honourable exception who does try their best, but it is a non-job which builds up an expensive bureaucracy to service it. I normally always vote in every election, but I won't in principle for PCCs.
Not the point I was making. I am saying that every local authority in England and Wales, and probably some in Scotland and Northern Ireland, are preparing to run an election in May.

So, if we get a general election on a different date, that's double the effort and double the cost for most councils.

Yes, it was a tactical piece of legislation designed to hold the coalition together, which it did, but it was dressed up as a serious constitutional change, whereas it was a mess, and both the 2017 and 2019 elections got into a mess (especially the latter) because of it.
Some countries get on just fine with fixed terms. The FTPA did not impede the ability of parliament to move to an election in either of those cases. There was no "mess".
I saw nothing wrong in allowing the prime minister to decide the date of the election, so I'm glad it's gone.
I'd disagree. Why is it up to the prime minister? They'll decide the date based on what works for them or their party, not for the country. Hence the rumours of silly games with "surprise" elections following a giveaway budget and other nonsense. Fixed terms - with a mechanism for an early election when necessary - allows everyone to know where they stand and what to plan for.

Instead, as we see now - we get a few more months of the tories salting the earth because Labour are very likely to get in. How does this benefit the country?
 
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Silenos

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That must be why so many of them voted to leave the EU then.
Though what we don’t know is whether that cohort voted to leave because of their age or whether that’s an artefact due to a much higher proportion of that age group not having higher educational qualifications (the latter was, if I recall correctly, the strongest predictive factor).
 

brad465

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The spat between Badenoch and the former Post Office Chair continues to heat up:


A row has deepened between Business Secretary Kemi Badenoch and the Post Office chair she sacked, after he said he had been told to delay compensation payments for sub-postmasters.
Henry Staunton said he had been told to stall payouts to allow the government to "limp into the election", apparently to help state finances.
But Ms Badenoch said the claims were "completely false" and accused him of spreading "made-up anecdotes".
Mr Staunton has stood by his comments.
The row first erupted at the weekend when the former Post Office chair said in an interview with the Sunday Times, he was told by a senior civil servant to slow down compensation payments to postmasters.
Between 1999 and 2015, hundreds of sub-postmasters and postmistresses were wrongly prosecuted after a faulty computer system called Horizon made it look like money was missing from their branches.
Some sub-postmasters wrongfully went to prison, many were financially ruined. Some have since died.
The government has promised to quash convictions and pay compensation, but concerns have been raised over the speed and complexity in victims securing financial redress, with just 33 claims fully settled.
Mr Staunton, who has been on boards of companies ranging from ITV to WH Smith, was appointed as chair of the Post Office in December 2022, but was dismissed by Ms Badenoch last month.
He told the Sunday Times that early on in his role, "I was told by a fairly senior person to stall on spend on compensation and on the replacement of Horizon, and to limp, in quotation marks - I did a file note on it - limp into the election".
"It was not an anti-postmaster thing, it was just straight financials," he said. "I didn't ask, because I said: 'I'm having no part of it - I'm not here to limp into the election, it's not the right thing to do by postmasters'."
 

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Being able to remember the war is not necessarily going to make you want to to Leave. Although he was dead long before the vote, one of the few things that a normally taciturn relative expressed an opinion on was the EU, which he was clearly in favour of because it was a forum for discussion and that was better than war. I cannot say how he would have voted in 2016, but I expect he would have gone for Remain. He had been evacuated from Dunkirk in 1940 and later fought his way up through Italy with the Royal Artillery, including (I believe) being at Cassino.

The spat between Badenoch and the former Post Office Chair continues to heat up:


Her comments being conveniently under parliamentary immunity.
 

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I'm not sure it's really sustainable to just equate pensioner with lived through the war and remembers it even in 2016 (even less so now of course!).
Of course it isn't. My remark was tongue-in-cheek (there ought to be an emoji for it!).

The post I responded to began "Sensibly pensioners that have lived through WWII..." and then went on to suggest that those same pensioners cast their votes in the referendum believing that the EU was responsible for preventing WW3. I didn't quite understand the logic because, if what we are told is correct, a large number of Leave votes came from the older age groups. But as you say, with WW2 having ended almost 80 years ago, the numbers who lived through that event are comparatively small and the numbers with any decent recollection of it much smaller still.
 

bspahh

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Not the point I was making. I am saying that every local authority in England and Wales, and probably some in Scotland and Northern Ireland, are preparing to run an election in May.

So, if we get a general election on a different date, that's double the effort and double the cost for most councils.
At Oddschecker the odds of an election between April and June 2024 are 4-1, or 2-7 between October and December, so you can make some money if its going to be in May.
 

nw1

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Being able to remember the war is not necessarily going to make you want to to Leave. Although he was dead long before the vote, one of the few things that a normally taciturn relative expressed an opinion on was the EU, which he was clearly in favour of because it was a forum for discussion and that was better than war. I cannot say how he would have voted in 2016, but I expect he would have gone for Remain. He had been evacuated from Dunkirk in 1940 and later fought his way up through Italy with the Royal Artillery, including (I believe) being at Cassino.

I seem to remember reading something suggesting that the spike in "Leave" support was mostly in fact people not old enough to remember the war in fact, and the very oldest people who lived through the war were more pro-Remain. Sorry, no link, just remember seeing it a number of years ago.
 

birchesgreen

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Most pensioners alive today did not live through the war never mind fight in it, though a sizable proportion seem to think they did.
 

nw1

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Indeed has the possibility of getting the local vote up that might not happen if there was a GE taking place but there really isn't anything they can do now to win so still reckon going long gives them maximum chance to reduce losses.

A contra-point of course is that people are generally more optimistic and happy in May than in Oct/Nov, given in May the days are long and summer is approaching while in Oct/Nov the days are rapidly getting darker as we descend into winter. Also the weather is often good in May (though in the constant rain fest that has been on-going since last July, who knows this year) which will encourage turnout.

Plus energy bills are less of a consideration in May compared to Oct/Nov.

If you're relatively optimistic you might forgive the incumbents, if not you are more likely to take your frustrations out on them.
 

jfollows

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I seem to remember reading something suggesting that the spike in "Leave" support was mostly in fact people not old enough to remember the war in fact, and the very oldest people who lived through the war were more pro-Remain. Sorry, no link, just remember seeing it a number of years ago.
Sounds reasonable; anecdotally and totally unrepresentative is my friend Bob who was born in the early 1950s and voted "leave" but now regrets it.
Whilst I have memories of the 1975 referendum and a little of the campaign because I was 13 or so, but too young really for it to be significant to me, whereas Bob could have been much more engaged and therefore formed a strong opinion at the time.
To me, growing up with the EEC (as was) I only saw benefits really.

I think the discussion in 1974 and 1975 will have been more significant than WW2
 
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nw1

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Most pensioners alive today did not live through the war never mind fight in it, though a sizable proportion seem to think they did.

To be fair a good proportion did technically live through the war (someone born at the end of the war would still only be 78), but few would be old enough to actually remember it.

Sounds reasonable; anecdotally and totally unrepresentative is my friend Bob who was born in the early 1950s and voted "leave" but now regrets it.
Whilst I have memories of the 1975 referendum and a little of the campaign because I was 13 or so, but too young really for it to be significant to me, whereas Bob could have been much more engaged and therefore formed a strong opinion at the time.
To me, growing up with the EEC (as was) I only saw benefits really.

Indeed: I'm rather younger (first election I could vote in was 1992) so for me, the EEC/EU has completely dominated my life, and can't remember the time before it. It's being out of the EU that's abnormal, IMO, and feels like winding the clock back 50 years.
Given my experience, I'm surprised that Remain didn't trounce Leave in people of my age, as none of us can remember the time before 1973. (Remain did have a marginal lead, I believe, but it was only marginal).
 
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JamesT

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Indeed: I'm rather younger (first election I could vote in was 1992) so for me, the EEC/EU has completely dominated my life, and can't remember the time before it. It's being out of the EU that's abnormal, IMO, and feels like winding the clock back 50 years.
Given my experience, I'm surprised that Remain didn't trounce Leave in people of my age, as none of us can remember the time before 1973. (Remain did have a marginal lead, I believe, but it was only marginal).
Perhaps it's _because_ they can't remember the before times that they were pro Leave? They don't have experience of not being in, so the Remain campaign was merely Project Fear.
 

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