Island Line Class 484 Reliability

RacsoMoquette · 25 Feb 2024

After a highly splendid recent trip to the Isle of Wight, utilizing the Island Line frequently I have become quite knowledgeable about the Class 484s, on my trip during between the 22nd and 25th February 2024.

Meanwhile, apart from them being extremely charming and well-designed (at least for the passenger, that is), I spoke to three different guards who were rather happy to have a detailed chat, though they all had one straightforward answer, which was either: "these units are a nightmare", or "let’s not get into this conversation".

The consensus is clear that reliability is woeful.

During my visit, the only units operating were 484003 and 484004. The other three were out of service due to failures of some variety.

I am interested to understand if anyone may relay any information to what variety of failures the units are experiencing, seeing as the main bane of the 230s was the engines and insufficient cooling systems, which is not present on the 484s.

On a more positive note, I found the units to be quick off the mark and internal arrangements to be ideal.

Unfortunately though - as with the 230s - the doors are painfully slow to open, and slam violently when closing. It can'tt do the bodyshells any good!

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JonathanH · 25 Feb 2024

RacsoMoquette said:
During my visit the only units operating were 484003 and 484004.

Only two units are required to deliver the timetable. Were the other units actually broken?

RacsoMoquette · 25 Feb 2024

Also, I have noticed that the fleet of Class 484s have very recently been given a modification on the door button warning stickers. It is now a lot larger and a mysterious grey oddly shaped panel has been erected aligning the sticker. Could this me thus to mitigate corrosion? Or something akin? As it was only a recent modification.

I was informed by a gaurd that the remainder of the fleet were out of service due to defects. The line was solely worked by 484004 and 484003 for the three days I was their. I also tracked them operating for a prolonged period utilizing Real Time Trains.

The door buttons can clearly be seen in this video I took. 1.47 for best sighting

50002Superb · 25 Feb 2024

Were you able to view the other three or are they locked up tight?

Woods · 25 Feb 2024

484001 is out of action following flood damage (awaiting TCU repairs). I understand that the others are suffering from excessive hollow wheel wear; thought to be mainly a problem with the track rather than the trains. As a result, several have wheelsets which are getting very close to scrapping limits, it may be that 484002 and 484005 have wheels which are closest to the limits and therefore being held in reserve. And procurement bureaucracy has delayed the acquisition of new wheels, presumably the people responsible for the procurement process do not have their feet sufficiently close to the fire.....

RacsoMoquette · 26 Feb 2024

I could see 484005 and 484002 outside Ryde St Johns depot, however not 484001, which I presume was inside the depot.

WarrenTManager · 26 Feb 2024

Woods said:
484001 is out of action following flood damage (awaiting TCU repairs). I understand that the others are suffering from excessive hollow wheel wear; thought to be mainly a problem with the track rather than the trains. As a result, several have wheelsets which are getting very close to scrapping limits, it may be that 484002 and 484005 have wheels which are closest to the limits and therefore being held in reserve. And procurement bureaucracy has delayed the acquisition of new wheels, presumably the people responsible for the procurement process do not have their feet sufficiently close to the fire.....

I would imagine the delay is to not waste a few hundred thousand on the same wheels that do exactly the same thing and to see what the best solution going forward. Plus as Vivarail are no more is not going to help as they would have been the supplier of the wheelsets.

cav1975 · 26 Feb 2024

Woods said:
484001 is out of action following flood damage (awaiting TCU repairs). I understand that the others are suffering from excessive hollow wheel wear; thought to be mainly a problem with the track rather than the trains. As a result, several have wheelsets which are getting very close to scrapping limits, it may be that 484002 and 484005 have wheels which are closest to the limits and therefore being held in reserve. And procurement bureaucracy has delayed the acquisition of new wheels, presumably the people responsible for the procurement process do not have their feet sufficiently close to the fire.....

Both the previous iterations of ex-LT stock had wheel problems in their early days on the Island. Possibly these derived from differing stands between LT and BR.

Have the lessons learned been forgotten?

CaergwrleKen · 26 Feb 2024

Oh dear some ex Underground trains not working very well and the blame being put on everything else except the trains themselves, where have we heard this before i wonder?

Peter Sarf · 26 Feb 2024

CaergwrleKen said:
Oh dear some ex Underground trains not working very well and the blame being put on everything else except the trains themselves, where have we heard this before i wonder?

In the case of the 484s they should be very similar to their source the D78s. Not much to do with the running gear was changed so it will most likely be something different on the island.

This thought eventually led me to the realisation that there is no fourth rail so the return current will be through the wheels and into the tracks. Could this be causing accelerated corrosion/pitting on the wheel surface ?.

You would think that lesson would have been learnt the last two times ex-tube stock was transferred to the Isle of Wight. Actually ended up working for quite a while so maybe something different !.

Woods · 26 Feb 2024

Peter Sarf said:
In the case of the 484s they should be very similar to their source the D78s. Not much to do with the running gear was changed so it will most likely be something different on the island.

This thought eventually led me to the realisation that there is no fourth rail so the return current will be through the wheels and into the tracks. Could this be causing accelerated corrosion/pitting on the wheel surface ?.

You would think that lesson would have been learnt the last two times ex-tube stock was transferred to the Isle of Wight. Actually ended up working for quite a while so maybe something different !.

The 230s / 484s have got P8 wheel profiles. In LUL days they had an LT5 profile. They were converted to P8 wheel profile to make them compatible with UK mainline track. The track on the Island should have been maintained to UK mainline standards. But it is possible that the track on the Island has actually worn to suit the wheels of the older 483s, not sure what profiles they ended up with on the island. They don't have any rail grinders over there on the island. Maybe the lessons haven't been learned from the past. Perhaps the issue is that the 483s were around for so long that the generation of Engineers who introduced them were no longer around to warn the generation of Engineers who introduced the 484s that this might happen.

WarrenTManager said:
I would imagine the delay is to not waste a few hundred thousand on the same wheels that do exactly the same thing and to see what the best solution going forward. Plus as Vivarail are no more is not going to help as they would have been the supplier of the wheelsets.

I doubt it. The only supplier of wheelsets and wheelset components for the 230s/484s is a certain company in South Yorkshire. This has been known for years. But apparently a lengthly tendering exercise was required to see who else could supply. Which resulted in only that certain company responding (nobody else interested or capable). Having discovered what the Engineers had always known and had been saying for ages, an extended leadtime for new wheels is now a reality, which may end up stopping the fleet and forcing people on to replacement buses. If you need wheels, you need wheels, they should have got on with ordering them many months ago. It's a total and classic rail industry farce. You can have a fantastic procurement process, followed to the letter, but no train service. Wonderful.

Peter Sarf said:
This thought eventually led me to the realisation that there is no fourth rail so the return current will be through the wheels and into the tracks. Could this be causing accelerated corrosion/pitting on the wheel surface ?.

Good thought but don't think it's that. The 484s have an axle-end earth brush (new design, Vivarail not LUL) which mitigates that. This is excessive hollow wear which points to a mismatch between the wheel profile and rail profile. Experts on the wheel-rail interface have been brought in to study it. Doesn't excuse the fact that they haven't got on and ordered new wheels in the meantime though!

Peter Sarf · 26 Feb 2024

Woods said:
The 230s / 484s have got P8 wheel profiles. In LUL days they had an LT5 profile. They were converted to P8 wheel profile to make them compatible with UK mainline track. The track on the Island should have been maintained to UK mainline standards. But it is possible that the track on the Island has actually worn to suit the wheels of the older 483s, not sure what profiles they ended up with on the island. They don't have any rail grinders over there on the island. Maybe the lessons haven't been learned from the past. Perhaps the issue is that the 483s were around for so long that the generation of Engineers who introduced them were no longer around to warn the generation of Engineers who introduced the 484s that this might happen.

I doubt it. The only supplier of wheelsets and wheelset components for the 230s/484s is a certain company in South Yorkshire. This has been known for years. But apparently a lengthly tendering exercise was required to see who else could supply. Which resulted in only that certain company responding (nobody else interested or capable). Having discovered what the Engineers had always known and had been saying for ages, an extended leadtime for new wheels is now a reality, which may end up stopping the fleet and forcing people on to replacement buses. If you need wheels, you need wheels, they should have got on with ordering them many months ago. It's a total and classic rail industry farce. You can have a fantastic procurement process, followed to the letter, but no train service. Wonderful.

Good thought but don't think it's that. The 484s have an axle-end earth brush (new design, Vivarail not LUL) which mitigates that. This is excessive hollow wear which points to a mismatch between the wheel profile and rail profile. Experts on the wheel-rail interface have been brought in to study it. Doesn't excuse the fact that they haven't got on and ordered new wheels in the meantime though!

This is an example of experience being lost over time. Goodness knows how much Network Rail wish they had all the drawings for layouts showing where drains and other services are. Indeed the London Sewers and Water mains are a bit of a mystery apparently.

I expect that on the Isle of Wight the wheel and rail profile could well have "evolved" over decades away from the P8 standard you refer to. Never a problem while nothing new encountered the track - its an island after all. Then introduce new stuff with a perfectly formed P8 profile !.

You have jogged my memory. I think the axle end earth brushes are to protect the wheel/axle bearings from electrically induced pitting.

D365 · 26 Feb 2024

I am aware of at least one consulting engineer who was heavily involved in the Class 483 introduction and has also previously been contracted by at least two of the Class 484 stakeholders. However I am not sure if he is still involved.

cav1975 · 26 Feb 2024

Given that GWR has a large number of D78 behicles in store you'd thing that the two First Group companies could do a deal to keep Island Line running.

MarkyT · 26 Feb 2024

cav1975 said:
Given that GWR has a large number of D78 behicles in store you'd thing that the two First Group companies could do a deal to keep Island Line running.

But what profile should they be turned to? If they specify the same as last time, then the new wheelsets are likely to wear just as quickly in the same way. Let's see what the boffins come up with.

wickham · 26 Feb 2024

The track on the Isle of Wight was not "main line standard" for a long time, historically there was jointed track and sea dredged shingle ballast - what did those joints do to the 483 wheel tyres ? There was recently a big modenisation program while the line was closed pending the 484 introduction, but has the track been completely upgraded to long welded rails and proper ballast or are there still sections of the old stuff ? This might be relavent to the problem.

Woods · 26 Feb 2024

cav1975 said:
Given that GWR has a large number of D78 behicles in store you'd thing that the two First Group companies could do a deal to keep Island Line running.

Funnily enough, this is happening. GWR are loaning SWR 4 out of 8 of their stored (and overhauled) wheelsets to help SWR out of the mire. But of course, this does rather leave GWR exposed.....

MarkyT said:
But what profile should they be turned to? If they specify the same as last time, then the new wheelsets are likely to wear just as quickly in the same way. Let's see what the boffins come up with.

Exactly. Boffins will examine what the best profile should be (if not P8).

wickham said:
The track on the Isle of Wight was not "main line standard" for a long time, historically there was jointed track and sea dredged shingle ballast - what did those joints do to the 483 wheel tyres ? There was recently a big modenisation program while the line was closed pending the 484 introduction, but has the track been completely upgraded to long welded rails and proper ballast or are there still sections of the old stuff ? This might be relavent to the problem.

Still sections of old stuff. Don't think the budget extended to renewing all the rails, sadly.

Peter Sarf said:
I expect that on the Isle of Wight the wheel and rail profile could well have "evolved" over decades away from the P8 standard you refer to. Never a problem while nothing new encountered the track - its an island after all. Then introduce new stuff with a perfectly formed P8 profile !.

Hit the nail on the head I suspect!

Peter Sarf said:
You have jogged my memory. I think the axle end earth brushes are to protect the wheel/axle bearings from electrically induced pitting.

Exactly that yes.

GC class B1 · 27 Feb 2024

Peter Sarf said:
I expect that on the Isle of Wight the wheel and rail profile could well have "evolved" over decades away from the P8 standard you refer to. Never a problem while nothing new encountered the track - its an island after all. Then introduce new stuff with a perfectly formed P8 profile !.

I think it is more likely that the P8 profile is new to the Isle of Wight rolling stock as it is a fairly recent wheel profile in terms of the history of railway wheel profiles. The P8 profile is not a universal standard and is not applicable to all current rollings stock operating on NR.
As mentioned in post #12 the ‘D’ stock did not have P8 profiles.

RedPostJunc · 27 Feb 2024

Woods said:
excessive hollow wheel wear

I understand the concept of a mismatch between the rail profile and the wheel profile.
Could someone please explain to a layman exactly what "excessive hollow wheel wear" is and how it affects the ride?

MarkyT · 27 Feb 2024

RedPostJunc said:
I understand the concept of a mismatch between the rail profile and the wheel profile.
Could someone please explain to a layman exactly what "excessive hollow wheel wear" is and how it affects the ride?

Its a concave wear pattern of the wheel tread over service life. Here is a good explanation with a diagram:

https://www.mxvrail.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/TD22-026.pdf

Unable to cut and past any text direct from the document but it says that some hollow wear is normal and expected as part of a wheeltread lifecycle, but excessive amounts can lead to rail damage, poor ride, greater rolling resistance, and initiation of rolling contact fatigue cracks.

RacsoMoquette · 27 Feb 2024

Just to confirm, is GWR providing SWR with bogies or stored D78 Stock? It would be extreamly interesting to see a GWR Converted D78. I wonder if they will be assigned a different sub designation such as the Class 230/1? As SWR only have a fleet of five 484s and presently they only have two serviceable, it concerns one that they may only have one or no serviceable trains to run the Island Line. If that arises I would be rather intrigued to see what the outcome would hold!
SPECULATIVE: If TFWs 230s in their current unreliable guise continue to plague the Borderlands Line with abonerable reliability, might they be sent to either GWR or SWR as a last resort? As they could get their diesel hybrid propulsion removed in favor of third rail or battery. Even though TFW have invested heavily in the units production and modifications, it just may become inpractical to operate said units. They will likely just purchase more 197s or something akin to a Stadler FLIRT.

Thirteen · 27 Feb 2024

I think the 230s could be used for parts for the 484s. Does anyone know happened to the LNW 230s after Vivarail went bust?

Bletchleyite · 27 Feb 2024

Thirteen said:
I think the 230s could be used for parts for the 484s. Does anyone know happened to the LNW 230s after Vivarail went bust?

GWR have bought them and they are now at Reading I believe. It may well help that both are FirstGroup TOCs.

RacsoMoquette · 27 Feb 2024

In November 2023 Vivarail entered administration, due to this GWR purchased the intellectual property rights of said company, it comprised of all their assets including the LNWR Class 230s (Which were owned by Vivarail not LNWR) and their Fast Charge technology. GWR now own those 230s which are pending further use as to be converted to battery power to strengthen the existing 230 demonstrator. At the moment they are in storage at Reading TMD (albeit vandalized with some cars experiencing graffiti attacks) GWR also inherited many cars of stored D78 Stock Cars pending possible use as to be converted to further strengthen the fleet of the trial is deemed a succes.

swt_passenger · 27 Feb 2024

wickham said:
The track on the Isle of Wight was not "main line standard" for a long time, historically there was jointed track and sea dredged shingle ballast - what did those joints do to the 483 wheel tyres ? There was recently a big modenisation program while the line was closed pending the 484 introduction, but has the track been completely upgraded to long welded rails and proper ballast or are there still sections of the old stuff ? This might be relavent to the problem.

How would they get long welded rails onto site?

RacsoMoquette · 27 Feb 2024

Just out of curiosity, could anybody relay information to what the former Vivarail employees are doing now? I seem to remember a handful went to work for Network Rail and some to GWR, but are the any at Ryde TMD overseeing maintenance of the 484s?

wickham · 27 Feb 2024

Two points here: Someone has completely missed the point about GWR helping out SWR with the wheel wear problem - they are only loaning wheel sets (ie: Wheels and axles) NOT complete bogies or even carriages !!
The other point regarding getting long welded rails to the Isle of Wight - they are welded into long lengths on site. This applies to many works sites thoughout the country - long rails are often cut into the managable sizes and welded up into long lengths on site. Expansion joints are also made seperatly and welded into where they are required. It may sound daft to the leyman but this is regular practice.

cav1975 · 27 Feb 2024

There is another relevant point about long welded rails. They need sufficient good quality ballast to hold the track in place in spite of thermal changes. Traditionally on the Island ballast hes been neither good quality nor present in sufficient quantities. I'm sure that some new ballast was provided during the recent long shutdown but whether it was adequate for long welded rails is somethng that only the engineers concerned can answer.

DelW · 27 Feb 2024

In the days of the 483s, Island Line had a combination of dodgy track, lively ride, and deep upholstered seat squabs. It was good fun to stand at one end of a coach on a busy train, look along its length, and watch all the passengers bouncing up and down in unison. I don't think the 484 upholstery is thick enough to repeat the experience now though.

BigB · 27 Feb 2024

I guess the obvious question is what profile the TFW 230s have, and are they seeing a similar wear pattern on standard track?
Is anyone aware if these are also P8 or another profile?

Island Line Class 484 Reliability

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