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Why doesn't the 17:45 Portsmouth Harbour to London Waterloo stop at Clapham Junction?

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infobleep

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This has come up more generally in the past but not sure if this specific example has come up.

What is the reason why the Monday to Friday 17:45 Portsmouth Harbour to London Waterloo cannot stop at Clapham Junction. It passes there at 19:22 and the next service appears to be the 19:29 Basingstoke service which also passes through. 7 minutes is long enough between services, given the Exeter to London Waterloo train stops at 19:40-41 and Weymouth to London Waterloo services passes through at 19:44, just 3 minutes later.

As the time the train gets to Clapham Junction doesn't appear to be the issue, is it due to needing to be at London Waterloo by a certain time or it will block trains departing London Waterloo? It arrives into London Waterloo at 19:29 and then departs again as the 20:05 to Bournemouth but I appreciate there are other trains departing London Waterloo besides this one and there might be a conflict of moments.
 
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cav1975

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I have a similar problem in the oposite direction. I travel from Kent to Portsmouth via Victoria so it would be helpful to me to join the Monday to Friday 07:30 Waterloo to Portsmouth Harbour but it doesn't stop so I have to get an earlier train and change at Woking or Guildford. The alternative is "tube" from Victoria to Waterloo, although quick it doesn't comply with the minimum interchange toimes for the trains that I like to use.
 
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infobleep

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cav1975 said:
I have a similar problem in the oposite direction. I travel from Kent to Portsmouth via Victoria so it would be helpful to me to join the Monday to Friday 07:30 Waterloo to Portsmouth Harbour but it doesn't stop so I have to get an earlier train and change at Woking or Guildford. The alternative is "tube" from Victoria to Waterloo, although quick it doesn't comply with the minimum interchange toimes for the trains that I like to use.
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This is due to the number of trains that need to pass through Clapham Junction at that time of the morning and so it isn't possible for them to stop.

In the example I'm referring to, this isn't the case, so there might be another reason for it not stopping.

By not stopping, one has to wait 16 minutes at Woking. Still most off-peak hours the wait is 20 minutes around this time and I accept the usual x49 past from Guildford to London Waterloo can't stop at Clapham Junctiom due to trains behind it.

In this perticular hour there is no x49 as the train from Portsmouth stops at additional stations between Haslemere and Guildford, so it becomes the 18:55 and I haven't figured out the reason why it can't stop at Clapham Junction. There is no 19:01.

The only additional evening trains to the regular 3 an hour are the 17:01 and 18:01 services. These stop at Clapham Junction, along with the x34 past services that run most hours.

Less trains run now due to less passenger money coming in overall so they needed to make cuts.

Update: The 18:24 from Basingstoke to London Waterloo, which doesn't stop at Clapham Junction, passed through Clappham Junction 3 minutes early this evening. No idea if that is a regular occurance.

It maybe that in this one perticular case, it wouldn't be u reasonable for me to ask South Western Railway if the 18:55 could stop at Clapham Junction but there may be some other reason I'm not aware of, meaning I shouldn't bother waisting their time.
 
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TEW

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infobleep said:
It maybe that in this one perticular case, it wouldn't be u reasonable for me to ask South Western Railway if the 18:55 could stop at Clapham Junction but there may be some other reason I'm not aware of, meaning I shouldn't bother waisting their time.
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From June it is retimed anyway and will depart Guildford in the normal pattern at 1849.
 
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infobleep said:
Update: The 18:24 from Basingstoke to London Waterloo, which doesn't stop at Clapham Junction, passed through Clappham Junction 3 minutes early this evening. No idea if that is a regular occurance.

It maybe that in this one perticular case, it wouldn't be u reasonable for me to ask South Western Railway if the 18:55 could stop at Clapham Junction but there may be some other reason I'm not aware of, meaning I shouldn't bother waisting their time.
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2L64, the Basingstoke-Waterloo service, has 3.5 minutes of extra pathing time in its schedule between Wimbledon and Clapham Junction, so if it's not held up by anything it'll run early. The WH working timetable (extract below, from https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/the-timetable/working-timetable/) shows this extra time in () brackets.
1709154984734.png
 
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infobleep said:
This has come up more generally in the past but not sure if this specific example has come up.

What is the reason why the Monday to Friday 17:45 Portsmouth Harbour to London Waterloo cannot stop at Clapham Junction. It passes there at 19:22 and the next service appears to be the 19:29 Basingstoke service which also passes through. 7 minutes is long enough between services, given the Exeter to London Waterloo train stops at 19:40-41 and Weymouth to London Waterloo services passes through at 19:44, just 3 minutes later.

As the time the train gets to Clapham Junction doesn't appear to be the issue, is it due to needing to be at London Waterloo by a certain time or it will block trains departing London Waterloo? It arrives into London Waterloo at 19:29 and then departs again as the 20:05 to Bournemouth but I appreciate there are other trains departing London Waterloo besides this one and there might be a conflict of moments.
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How long do you actually have to wait?
 
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infobleep

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TEW said:
From June it is retimed anyway and will depart Guildford in the normal pattern at 1849.
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Thanks for that info. That puts pay to my idea then.

That means in the future one will arrive into Woking at 18:57 and have to wait until 19:21 for a connecting train, so a 24-minute wait!

The journey time from Guildford to Clapham Junction on a fast direct train is 31 minutes. Waiting 24-minutes is still faster than waiting at Guildford for another train though.

I note that they have switched services for the stations that some of the trains stop at, which is how the train has been able to ve revered back to 18:49.

Currently, there are three trains between 16:00 and 17:00 from Milford to London Waterloo. This goes down to 1. It's 1 most other hours so this makes it the same.

I do appreciate less people are travelling though and there is a great need to save money.

jfollows said:
2L64, the Basingstoke-Waterloo service, has 3.5 minutes of extra pathing time in its schedule between Wimbledon and Clapham Junction, so if it's not held up by anything it'll run early. The WH working timetable (extract below, from https://www.networkrail.co.uk/running-the-railway/the-timetable/working-timetable/) shows this extra time in () brackets.
View attachment 153354
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Thanks.
 
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TEW

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infobleep said:
Currently, there are three trains between 16:00 and 17:00 from Milford to London Waterloo. This goes down to 1. It's 1 most other hours so this makes it the same.
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I think there may have been a bit of an oversight there. I wouldn't be surprised if an additional Milford call is added. There is a large amount of traffic around that time of day from a local school.
 
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infobleep

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TEW said:
I think there may have been a bit of an oversight there. I wouldn't be surprised if an additional Milford call is added. There is a large amount of traffic around that time of day from a local school.
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I was thinking of schools and wondering about that. Of course if they add in stops that will mean the timetables will have to change.

If only there was a similar flow to Clapham Junction but I do accept less are travelling. Even I don't travel almost every day as I use to.

At least there is enough demand to run the additional 17:01 and 18:01 Guildford to London Waterloo services.
 
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a very, very quick look at RTT shows that the Portsmouth train concerned (1P62) arrives Waterloo Platform 11 at 1929, with the 1930 to Portsmouth (1P63) departing from Platform 12. This is a conflicting move, but an arrival at P11 is allowed to have a conflicting departure 1 minute later (although it is a slight perfromance risk).

However, if 1P62 called at Clapham it would be arriving three minutes later at 1932, which is a direct conflict with a 1930 departure (they‘d both need to be going through the double slips about 70 metres from the platform ends at 1931).
 
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infobleep

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Bald Rick said:
a very, very quick look at RTT shows that the Portsmouth train concerned (1P62) arrives Waterloo Platform 11 at 1929, with the 1930 to Portsmouth (1P63) departing from Platform 12. This is a conflicting move, but an arrival at P11 is allowed to have a conflicting departure 1 minute later (although it is a slight perfromance risk).

However, if 1P62 called at Clapham it would be arriving three minutes later at 1932, which is a direct conflict with a 1930 departure (they‘d both need to be going through the double slips about 70 metres from the platform ends at 1931).
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That explains it. Many thanks. I thought it might have been conflicting move related.

If they ever have the possibility of re-doing all the timetables, should they decide no more than 3 fast trains an hour will ever be needed on the Portsmouth Direct, most hours then maybe there will be an opportunity for 2 fast trains an hour to Clapham Junction. It is after all a major interchange.

In the mean time. From June, don't miss the 18:34, if you don't like waiting 24 minutes at Woking, also known as dont be late. :lol: I laugh because I know what I'm like at times.
 
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Bald Rick said:
but an arrival at P11 is allowed to have a conflicting departure 1 minute later (although it is a slight perfromance risk).
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At risk of veering slightly in to the general theme of this, this was, of course always possible, and a move the ASC will use as and when required. But in the base plan (in my time) preferred to keep departures the 'correct' (left hand in direction of travel) side of inbound arrivals, within each group of routes (MS, ML or WL), as that was conflict free.
One problem with 'planning' an outbound move (for the base plan in particular, but also STP) around the back (from a higher plat) of an incoming move and across at West Crossings (ML group of platforms/trains) was that back then, NR didn't have a timing point in their system reflecting passing times at West Crossings, and so a move as per your comment would appear to be a conflict, even though in reality it was possible.
I think I'm correct in saying that this timing point omission in NR systems has now been rectified, and so validation can now reflect the 'actual' path each train takes.
 
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I wonder how much the usage of Clapham Junction has penetrated the service planning on the SWML. When I travel through there (out morning, in evening) the services can be near-empty out of Waterloo, and all seats taken after the Clapham stop - that providing several times the Waterloo load. It is surprising how the market seems to have changed for this service. I'd be interested to know where they all initially come from; I assume connections from Croydon/Richmond etc.
 
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Taunton said:
I'd be interested to know where they all initially come from; I assume connections from Croydon/Richmond etc.
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I don't know the overall broken down figures for that, although when the planning for the original 10 car scheme was in full swing, the Windsor side was seeing a surge in patronage due to new business' opening up along the Brentford/Hounslow corridor (amongst other areas along the Windsor side routes). The very reason that the 10 car plan at that time was initially centred around WL services.
 
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Taunton said:
I'd be interested to know where they all initially come from; I assume connections from Croydon/Richmond etc.
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AIUI the biggest flow is from the slows in the Balham direction to the down main slow, espeiclaly Kingston. Cross platform at the Junction in that direction, of course.
 
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infobleep said:
Currently 16 minutes but it's rising to 24-minutes, which is a long time when you consider the fast journey direct is only 31 minutes.
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In percentage of journey time yes a fair point. Those on routes of an hourly service (or worse) with frequent cancellations and stations in the middle of nowhere with no amenities, might struggle to find sympathy! The frustration is understandable, just wanted to add some wider comparison.
 
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