Vintage buses destroyed by fire 08/12/2023

TheGrandWazoo · 10 Dec 2023

First and foremost, at least no-one was hurt. However, it must be appalling for those individuals who have spent so much time and money to restore these vehicles so lovingly to see them lost in this conflagration.

Unfortunately, these things do happen, and for a variety of reasons - there's deliberate fire setting, electrical faults, etc. Bus operators don't have sprinklers in depots, and we've had a few depot fires over the years. Reference to earlier fires bears testament to that. The Bournemouth fire (that @WibbleWobble referred to) was started by an electrical fire in a tyre store IIRC. Meanwhile, the Willington one was a discarded cigarette, I think.

It's difficult enough to find storage facilities at a reasonable price for preserved vehicles, and even open secure storage is no guarantee.

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DunsBus · 10 Dec 2023

WibbleWobble said:
The sad irony of this was it was one of the buses saved from the Bournemouth Bus Station fire back in 1976, and was owned by the gentleman who saved it.

That is very sad indeed. It's always the significant vehicles, such as this one, that seem to meet fiery ends.

fgwrich · 10 Dec 2023

GusB said:
Has there been any suggestion that it was arson? I haven't seen anything posted that has indicated what the actual cause of the fire was. I assume that the fire service will be carrying out an investigation to establish this, so perhaps it's a little bit early to speculate.

Whether it was deliberately started or accidental, it doesn't really change the outcome, sadly.

Hampshire Fire & Rescue are investigating. At this moment in time though, we don't know. Whatever the outcome is, our XLJ won't be coming back and sadly, very unlikely, nor will many others involved in the fire.

The only small positive to the previously mentioned Ruddington fire was that a number of valuable parts were salvaged including a few front parts for an early ECW RELH - it's looking like this won't be possible for this one.

M803UYA · 10 Dec 2023

WibbleWobble said:
The sad irony of this was it was one of the buses saved from the Bournemouth Bus Station fire back in 1976, and was owned by the gentleman who saved it.

He did own until fairly recently. It was retained after he disposed of the Dekkabus operations to Simon Gard.

Source: https://bcv.robsly.com/kru224f.html

Illustrated History for KRU224F

Chassis: FLF6B 236149 Body: ECW 16168 Series 2 Engine: Bristol BVW - Gardner 6LW Configuration: H38/32F
Status: Scrapped Last Reported: 12/2023

Last updated : December 8th 2023 (brought up-to-date)

5/2023 William Staniforth, Stroud (for further preservation). Destroyed by fire at Penton Mewsey, 8/12/2023
1/2016 - 5/2023 Trevor Shore, Bournemouth (for preservation). Restored in NBC red livery for use on private hire work trading as Dekkabus. Re-engined with Gardner 6LW and transmission parts from TRB589F, 3/2019. Fitted with a digital tachograph, 6/2020
4/1981 - 1/2016 Cummings, Cook & McGill, Bournemouth (Wessex Transport Society) (for preservation). Also owned by Coldicott, by 5/1997
7/1967 - 4/1981 Hants & Dorset Motor Services Ltd. 1557. Renumbered 1254, 9/1971. Withdrawn 11/1980

busesrusuk · 10 Dec 2023

M803UYA said:
He did own until fairly recently. It was retained after he disposed of the Dekkabus operations to Simon Gard.

Source: https://bcv.robsly.com/kru224f.html

Here is a pic of this bus in happier times:

Preserved Hants & Dorset 1254 Jul16

Poole Town Centre, Jul 2016

www.flickr.com

Beebman · 8 Mar 2024

Update video released yesterday by the FoKAB showing the remains of Leyland Olympic JAA 708 being removed by low loader from Penton Mewsey and taken to Winchester for assessment to see if there's any hope of restoring it, seeing as it was the only vehicle which wasn't completely destroyed in the fire:

GusB · 8 Mar 2024

Beebman said:
Update video released yesterday by the FoKAB showing the remains of Leyland Olympic JAA 708 being removed by low loader from Penton Mewsey and taken to Winchester for assessment to see if there's any hope of restoring it, seeing as it was the only vehicle which wasn't completely destroyed in the fire:

I watched that earlier today. It's a hell of a big job that they've got on their hands but I hope they can salvage it. Hopefully the results of their assessment are positive.

One thing that amazed me was the time-lapse footage of the digger demolishing the building that the bus was housed in, and how precise they were. The video is worth a watch for that alone.

Towers · 8 Mar 2024

I strongly suspect the best they’ll realistically be able to manage might be some degree of cosmetic work on perhaps just the front end, with the rest left as it is to demonstrate its now rather unfortunate modern history. Looking at how badly the bodywork has melted and sagged I can’t imagine anything being remotely usable, and even if for example the main chassis members were salvaged the overwhelming majority of the vehicle would be newbuild, making it essentially a replica.

All of that being said, great to see it being released whole (after a fashion!) from the ashes of the fire, and whatever happens it’ll continue to be an interesting artefact of some sort, even if regretfully not the roadgoing machine that it once was.

Titfield · 8 Mar 2024

TheGrandWazoo said:
First and foremost, at least no-one was hurt. However, it must be appalling for those individuals who have spent so much time and money to restore these vehicles so lovingly to see them lost in this conflagration.

Unfortunately, these things do happen, and for a variety of reasons - there's deliberate fire setting, electrical faults, etc. Bus operators don't have sprinklers in depots, and we've had a few depot fires over the years. Reference to earlier fires bears testament to that. The Bournemouth fire (that @WibbleWobble referred to) was started by an electrical fire in a tyre store IIRC. Meanwhile, the Willington one was a discarded cigarette, I think.

It's difficult enough to find storage facilities at a reasonable price for preserved vehicles, and even open secure storage is no guarantee.

Sadly this does beg a number of questions:
(1) do vehicle's have battery isolator switches that absolutely isolates the battery from any part of the electrical system?
(2) can intruder and temperature detectors be installed that trigger an alert to a mobile phone (or series of phones)?
(3) how expensive are sprinkler systems?

jp4712 · 8 Mar 2024

Titfield said:
Sadly this does beg a number of questions:
(1) do vehicle's have battery isolator switches that absolutely isolates the battery from any part of the electrical system?
(2) can intruder and temperature detectors be installed that trigger an alert to a mobile phone (or series of phones)?
(3) how expensive are sprinkler systems?

I can only answer question 1. Yes, all buses have a battery isolator switch and any preservationist worth their salt will both know what one looks like and will have it drummed into them to switch it off when leaving the vehicle unattended. That said, some more modern buses have a feed to certain items that bypass the isolator, notably power to the tachograph. I’ve seen talk on bus preservation forums reminding owners of such vehicles to have a ‘kill switch’ fitted to remove ALL feeds when the vehicle is not being used. Older buses are simpler, both of mine are ‘Turn the big handle’ and you’re done, there are no closed circuits anywhere on the bus.

Leyland Bus · 8 Mar 2024

jp4712 said:
I can only answer question 1. Yes, all buses have a battery isolator switch and any preservationist worth their salt will both know what one looks like and will have it drummed into them to switch it off when leaving the vehicle unattended. That said, some more modern buses have a feed to certain items that bypass the isolator, notably power to the tachograph. I’ve seen talk on bus preservation forums reminding owners of such vehicles to have a ‘kill switch’ fitted to remove ALL feeds when the vehicle is not being used. Older buses are simpler, both of mine are ‘Turn the big handle’ and you’re done, there are no closed circuits anywhere on the bus.

Never trust an isolator on a bus being parked up for a while. Disconnect a battery lead to be absolutely certain...

Towers · 8 Mar 2024

I feel it’s worth pointing out here that this particular blaze was reported as having started in an adjacent, unrelated industrial unit and sadly spread. There was no suggestion that any of the preserved vehicles involved were the cause of the blaze.

John Webb · 8 Mar 2024

Titfield said:
Sadly this does beg a number of questions:
(1) do vehicle's have battery isolator switches that absolutely isolates the battery from any part of the electrical system?
(2) can intruder and temperature detectors be installed that trigger an alert to a mobile phone (or series of phones)?
(3) how expensive are sprinkler systems?

I commented on your items (2) and (3) in my post #15 on page 1 of this thread. In summary (2) is quite straightforward, (3) has a number of practical problems to consider, let alone the cost.

DunsBus · 8 Mar 2024

Towers said:
I strongly suspect the best they’ll realistically be able to manage might be some degree of cosmetic work on perhaps just the front end, with the rest left as it is to demonstrate its now rather unfortunate modern history. Looking at how badly the bodywork has melted and sagged I can’t imagine anything being remotely usable, and even if for example the main chassis members were salvaged the overwhelming majority of the vehicle would be newbuild, making it essentially a replica.

All of that being said, great to see it being released whole (after a fashion!) from the ashes of the fire, and whatever happens it’ll continue to be an interesting artefact of some sort, even if regretfully not the roadgoing machine that it once was.

That's my thinking as well. As good as it would be to see JAA708 fully restored once again I suspect that conservation of its remains will be the most realistic, and likely, outcome.

37114 · 9 Mar 2024

DunsBus said:
That's my thinking as well. As good as it would be to see JAA708 fully restored once again I suspect that conservation of its remains will be the most realistic, and likely, outcome.

It depends how determined and how much money the guys have and what there is left to save. I guess if the main chassis, axles, engines and gearbox can be saved then they can build what is effectively a new bus around it, assuming they have access to plans or a similar bus (albeit was it not a unique survivor?) but it will be a monumental challenge.

Also I am not sure when they rebuilt it in 2012 how bad the original body was and how much was new anyway?

Towers · 9 Mar 2024

37114 said:
It depends how determined and how much money the guys have and what there is left to save. I guess if the main chassis, axles, engines and gearbox can be saved then they can build what is effectively a new bus around it, assuming they have access to plans or a similar bus (albeit was it not a unique survivor?) but it will be a monumental challenge.

Also I am not sure when they rebuilt it in 2012 how bad the original body was and how much was new anyway?

Is it possible to rebuild complex mechanical components after exposure to extreme heat and direct fire damage? I’ve no idea, but it sounds very much like the sort of venture that might produce “it’s never worked properly since” sort of results; there’ll be an awful lot of warped and melted fiddly bits I should think!

37114 · 9 Mar 2024

Towers said:
Is it possible to rebuild complex mechanical components after exposure to extreme heat and direct fire damage? I’ve no idea, but it sounds very much like the sort of venture that might produce “it’s never worked properly since” sort of results; there’ll be an awful lot of warped and melted fiddly bits I should think!

I guess they won't know until they dismantle it. In the 1950s there was still an element of "over engineering" so it is likely the mechanical components would have survived better than if it were a Dennis Dart. For example in the video it can be seen the steering still works. It seems the one thing in their favour is it seems the bus was at the edge of the fire, the headlight glass is still intact for example

Towers · 9 Mar 2024

37114 said:
I guess they won't know until they dismantle it. In the 1950s there was still an element of "over engineering" so it is likely the mechanical components would have survived better than if it were a Dennis Dart. For example in the video it can be seen the steering still works. It seems the one thing in their favour is it seems the bus was at the edge of the fire, the headlight glass is still intact for example

Indeed, you wonder if the fire service arrived just in time for the front end to have miraculously escaped the same fate as everything else in the building, albeit only just.

M803UYA · 10 Mar 2024

37114 said:
It depends how determined and how much money the guys have and what there is left to save. I guess if the main chassis, axles, engines and gearbox can be saved then they can build what is effectively a new bus around it, assuming they have access to plans or a similar bus (albeit was it not a unique survivor?) but it will be a monumental challenge.

Also I am not sure when they rebuilt it in 2012 how bad the original body was and how much was new anyway?

In the video they mention there is one other surviving Leyland Olympic of the same type - on the Isle of Man.

If you have the funds you could build a body to sit on the chassis, but obviously it won't be the original one. It depends on the chassis condition. Bedford VAL CCG704C in the King Alfred collection doesn't have the original Plaxton body sitting on the chassis - another body was sourced from elsewhere as there wasn't much of the original one left to use.

It is however the same chassis.

I don't know the cost of building a body - if your primary cost is volunteer time, then your costs are confined to the materials required not the hours invested in the work. Obviously there'd be drawings in existence so there is a ready source of reference material available if they wished to do this.

So, the Friends of King Alfred buses have managed to achieve similar things before. If they know how much financially is required then they could raise it - the bus enthusiast community might want to contribute and donate to see it happen. In the video James Freeman says how surprised he has been by the support that's been received and by just how many people have got in touch to express their sympathies.

How much of this would translate into donations to achieve something that's never been attempted before? In an economic sense you'd never entertain doing this - but this is a rare survivor of an historic vehicle owned by dedicated and passionate people of the sort who aren't easily going to give up and accept the word 'no'.

randyrippley · 10 Mar 2024

I was surprised that the wheels of the bus still go round and round.........

Towers · 10 Mar 2024

M803UYA said:
In the video they mention there is one other surviving Leyland Olympic of the same type - on the Isle of Man.

If you have the funds you could build a body to sit on the chassis, but obviously it won't be the original one. It depends on the chassis condition. Bedford VAL CCG704C in the King Alfred collection doesn't have the original Plaxton body sitting on the chassis - another body was sourced from elsewhere as there wasn't much of the original one left to use.

It is however the same chassis.

I don't know the cost of building a body - if your primary cost is volunteer time, then your costs are confined to the materials required not the hours invested in the work. Obviously there'd be drawings in existence so there is a ready source of reference material available if they wished to do this.

So, the Friends of King Alfred buses have managed to achieve similar things before. If they know how much financially is required then they could raise it - the bus enthusiast community might want to contribute and donate to see it happen. In the video James Freeman says how surprised he has been by the support that's been received and by just how many people have got in touch to express their sympathies.

How much of this would translate into donations to achieve something that's never been attempted before? In an economic sense you'd never entertain doing this - but this is a rare survivor of an historic vehicle owned by dedicated and passionate people of the sort who aren't easily going to give up and accept the word 'no'.

The CPPTD (City of Portsmouth Preserved Transport Depot) just down the road from FoKAB have a Bedford OB with wartime-spec utility body which was constructed as a replica on the original chassis, so it’s certainly doable.

GCH100 · 8 Apr 2024

This has been posted by the Andover Advertiser in regards to JAA708

'A superb result' - owners rejoice as scorched vintage bus will not be written off

The rare King Alfred Leyland Olympic JAA 708 was one of eight vehicles impacted by an industrial blaze which swept through Penton Mewsey on…

www.andoveradvertiser.co.uk

DunsBus · 8 Apr 2024

GCH100 said:
This has been posted by the Andover Advertiser in regards to JAA708

'A superb result' - owners rejoice as scorched vintage bus will not be written off

The rare King Alfred Leyland Olympic JAA 708 was one of eight vehicles impacted by an industrial blaze which swept through Penton Mewsey on…

www.andoveradvertiser.co.uk

A bit of a misleading headline, unfortunately all too common in what passes for local journalism these days.

It implies that JAA708 has been saved from scrap when in fact all that has happened is that FOKAB have persuaded the insurance company not to dispose of the vehicle and to return it to them so that an assessment can be carried out. Only then will a decision be made as to whether JAA708 is restored or scrapped. As the saying goes, why let facts get in the way of a good story.

fgwrich · 8 Apr 2024

DunsBus said:
A bit of a misleading headline, unfortunately all too common in what passes for local journalism these days.

It implies that JAA708 has been saved from scrap when in fact all that has happened is that FOKAB have persuaded the insurance company not to dispose of the vehicle and to return it to them so that an assessment can be carried out. Only then will a decision be made as to whether JAA708 is restored or scrapped. As the saying goes, why let facts get in the way of a good story.

Indeed. It'll be for FOKAB to decide what happens next, but I suspect it'll be an either in part cosmetically restored (As in the front) or confined to the history books. Sadly the outcome for the two Bristol RE's and Bristol VR are not as great and won't be coming back.

Chassis: FLF6B 236149	Body: ECW 16168 Series 2	Engine: Bristol BVW - Gardner 6LW	Configuration: H38/32F
Status: Scrapped			Last Reported: 12/2023

Vintage buses destroyed by fire 08/12/2023

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