What does "Not valid on trains timed to depart" actually mean?

Jim32 · 8 Mar 2024

Hi all,

I did search for this topic before joining up and posting, I couldn't find a general solution to this and can't figure it out for myself so far...What does "Not valid on trains timed to depart" actually mean? I have a ticket, say, code UE, that states, amongst other things: "Not valid on trains timed to depart London Waterloo 16:00-19:00"

I don't get on the train at Waterloo, but I do get on a train at Woking that did depart Waterloo.

Now, I have been interpreting the phrase to apply to the entire journey of such a train, i.e. if it WAS timed to depart Waterloo in the time window stated, it is out of bounds for me.

However I had a chat with a guy in a ticket booth and then followed up on the phone with SWR, and I'm being told this is an incorrect interpretation, but I'm struggling to read it any other way so I'm rather concerned the people I spoke to are simply wrong.

Effectively the description of the restriction I've been given is "Not valid to join a train at Waterloo timed to depart 16:00-19:00". I.e. it only applies AT Waterloo. However, the wording doesn't say that, it seems to say a different thing.

The only way I can make the verbal description from the staff concur with the online written restriction is by doing some linguistic gymnastics along the lines of: Once the train has departed waterloo, it is no longer timed to depart waterloo. i.e. the restriction is only forward-looking in time.

The chosen wording is terrible at getting this point across though, and I doubt revenue protection are fans of linguistic gymnastics, so what do others make of it?

Cheers

RailUK Forums

Class800 · 8 Mar 2024

It means trains timetabled to depart between 16.00 and 19.00, so if it was late and departed at 23.59, you would technically still not be permitted to take it

Haywain · 8 Mar 2024

I see your interpretation as the correct one. If SWR want it to mean something else they should change the wording to make it clear.

Edit: Having looked at the specific restriction code, it is clumsy in the way it is worded and appears not to mean what it says, otherwise there would be no need to mention the times of trains leaving Vauxhall and Clapham Junction.

plugwash · 8 Mar 2024

I agree with your plain english reading of the human readable restriction code.

HOWEVER, the "unpublished restrictions" used by journey planners, explicitly do not look at the origin of a train. They only look at where the passenger boards the train, where the passenger alights the train and the final destination of the train. On the other hand said "unpublished restrictions" often have rules defined for a lot more locations than the published human-readable restrictions.

Deafdoggie · 8 Mar 2024

The problem, of course, is passengers joining elsewhere don't know where the train has come from, nor what time it left there. Unless the railways start giving this information out routinely then they can't expect people to know.

Jim32 · 8 Mar 2024

Thanks for the replies all, @Haywain I'd not made the observation that it would be unnecessary to list Vauxhall and Clapham if my interpretation is correct, I'll give the benefit of the doubt to the staff I've spoken too. Still seems like it could be worded far better. Thanks again

TUC · 9 Mar 2024

Deafdoggie said:
The problem, of course, is passengers joining elsewhere don't know where the train has come from, nor what time it left there. Unless the railways start giving this information out routinely then they can't expect people to know.

That's a very good point. Just how are passengers boarding at later stations meant to know where the train has come from and so what restrictions apply?

Class800 · 9 Mar 2024

TUC said:
That's a very good point. Just how are passengers boarding at later stations meant to know where the train has come from and so what restrictions apply?

On real time trains, national rail live departures app, etc. What is intended by this seems prima facie clear, but in practice a bit shades of grey

Bletchleyite · 9 Mar 2024

Class800 said:
On real time trains, national rail live departures app, etc. What is intended by this seems prima facie clear, but in practice a bit shades of grey

Very few of them work that way anyway because the planners can't. A time for boarding at intermediates is given for each.

The exile · 9 Mar 2024

It is ludicrous that a restriction on tickets from (say) Woking is only expressed in terms of the departure time from Waterloo.

AlterEgo · 9 Mar 2024

The exile said:
It is ludicrous that a restriction on tickets from (say) Woking is only expressed in terms of the departure time from Waterloo.

Is that what is happening here, or is the OP breaking their journey/starting short on a ticket with the origin of London Waterloo?

TUC · 9 Mar 2024

Class800 said:
On real time trains, national rail live departures app, etc. What is intended by this seems prima facie clear, but in practice a bit shades of grey

There will be a number of rail passengers who don't use such apps/sites though. The effect of such restrictions needs to be spelt out at each station.

Haywain · 9 Mar 2024

AlterEgo said:
Is that what is happening here, or is the OP breaking their journey/starting short on a ticket with the origin of London Waterloo?

If it is a ticket to/from Waterloo, then the Waterloo restrictions will apply.

Starmill · 9 Mar 2024

A journey planner will calculate restrictions based on times where the customer joins and leaves the train and the arrival at the final destination of the train. They may also look at the times of stops whike the customer is onboard.

northwichcat · 9 Mar 2024

Starmill said:
A journey planner will calculate restrictions based on times where the customer joins and leaves the train and the arrival at the final destination of the train. They may also look at the times of stops whike the customer is onboard.

Which is good, until services are delayed or cancelled. If the journey planner shows your ticket is valid on a 19:30 departure, you turn up at the station to find the 19:25 cancelled and the 18:25 is 57 minutes late, what does it mean then?

SussexMan · 9 Mar 2024

Is anyone suggesting that SWR's cycle policy permits you to join a train with a bike at any station other than Waterloo if the train you are joining departed Waterloo between 16:45 and 19:00?

You cannot take bikes on or off trains that are due to arrive at London Waterloo between 07:15 and 10:00 or trains which leave London Waterloo between 16:45 and 19:00.

Surely if that is the restriction, I need to find out what time it was timed to depart Waterloo to check if I can take my bike.

MotCO · 9 Mar 2024

If you can get an itinerary for your journey, then surely that validates it whether or not it is actually correct?

AlterEgo · 9 Mar 2024

SussexMan said:
Is anyone suggesting that SWR's cycle policy permits you to join a train with a bike at any station other than Waterloo if the train you are joining departed Waterloo between 16:45 and 19:00?

Surely if that is the restriction, I need to find out what time it was timed to depart Waterloo to check if I can take my bike.

That’s correct, isn’t it? How else is it possible to read that restriction?

Starmill · 9 Mar 2024

AlterEgo said:
That’s correct, isn’t it? How else is it possible to read that restriction?

I think the post is saying precisely that.

It would make very little sense if you were permitted to join any train at Vauxhall or Clapham Junction after 1000 with a non-folding bike!

HST274 · 9 Mar 2024

I've always taken it to only apply if you are actually departing the station mentioned. It could arise to problems with a conductor though if you have broken your journey somewhere then get on a later train which would have left the origin station during the peak time.

OhNoAPacer · 11 Mar 2024

Let us play a game.
Bill and Ben are married and live in Glasgow. Bill is off to London to see some friends so Ben decides to go and stay with their parents in Carlisle fir a couple of days. They both book off peak returns, Bill Glasgow Central to Euston and Ben Glasgow Central to Carlisle.
Bill's ticket has restriction code 3A which states no travel on trains timed to depart Euston after 0429 and before 0905.
Bens ticket has code 2R stating no travel on trains departing between 0429and 0905.
Bill has broken their journey overnight in Carlisle on the return journey.
In the morning Bill and Ben go to Carlisle station and board the 1150 to Glasgow, which departed Euston at 0830.
You are the train manager and inspect their tickets, do you think Bill has broken the restrictions on their ticket?

Edited as had posted accidentally before completion of post.

skyhigh · 11 Mar 2024

OhNoAPacer said:
Let us play a game.
Bill and Ben are married and live in Glasgow. Bill is off to London to see some friends so Ben decides to go and stay with their parents in Carlisle fir a couple of days. They both book off peak returns, Bill Glasgow Central to Euston and Ben Glasgow Central to Carlisle.
Bill's ticket has restriction code 3A which states no travel on trains timed to depart Euston after 0429 and before 0905.

What's the question?

AlterEgo · 11 Mar 2024

HST274 said:
I've always taken it to only apply if you are actually departing the station mentioned. It could arise to problems with a conductor though if you have broken your journey somewhere then get on a later train which would have left the origin station during the peak time.

That's not at all how it is applied, else you could invent a wheeze whereby, say, leaving Waterloo you buy a single to Clapham Junction so the "restriction leaving Waterloo doesn't apply any more, I'm starting on this ticket from Clapham".

The restriction is worded "timed to depart" deliberately and for a reason.

Bletchleyite · 11 Mar 2024

skyhigh said:
What's the question?

I think it's a partial post

I suspect they're getting at "Bill breaks his journey at Carlisle, is it really true that he can't use trains that Ben can", and the answer is "yes, the restriction is on the ticket".

AlterEgo said:
That's not at all how it is applied, else you could invent a wheeze whereby, say, leaving Waterloo you buy a single to Clapham Junction so the "restriction leaving Waterloo doesn't apply any more, I'm starting on this ticket from Clapham".

The restriction is worded "timed to depart" deliberately and for a reason.

However the "unpublished restrictions" can't* actually implement that, and as such that wording probably shouldn't be used (or it should be fixed so they can implement that).

If however you want to work around a restriction from Euston in the evening which MKC doesn't have, then just split there. It does limit your choice of trains a bit but that's your tradeoff for a big saving.

3C is a right mess in any case, if you read its wording boarding an evening peak restricted train from Euston at MKC with a ticket from MKC would be barred, but it isn't.

* Sort of. You can actually list specific trains (by Retail Service ID) as barred throughout on a restriction, but as it's a massive faff to maintain the list it's hardly ever done. The former 1610 Euston-North Wales is the only place I recall ever seeing that.

HST274 · 11 Mar 2024

AlterEgo said:
That's not at all how it is applied, else you could invent a wheeze whereby, say, leaving Waterloo you buy a single to Clapham Junction so the "restriction leaving Waterloo doesn't apply any more, I'm starting on this ticket from Clapham".

The restriction is worded "timed to depart" deliberately and for a reason.

Whilst I see your reasoning, in this case the restriction mentioned UE is also applied to Clapham Junction. I know that's being pedantic! I also think that even if that's the correct application it's an unfair one, in that how should a person be expected to know the origin of their train or when it left. Also I think it's likely that if people were to attempt to exploit that and buy a separate ticket to the closest station, in most cases that would probably bring the overall money spent to that of the anytime equivalent, and probably more.

AlterEgo · 11 Mar 2024

HST274 said:
I also think that even if that's the correct application it's an unfair one, in that how should a person be expected to know the origin of their train or when it left.

A timetable, surely? It's not hard to find out when a train leaves a station even if it isn't the station you're departing from. Even National Rail Enquiries will show you a full journey itinerary by clicking on the train you want in Live Departures.

There are only two main ways to use a restriction:

1) Using a timetable
2) Getting an itinerary from an accredited site which uses the restriction code to work out what is valid, and sell you a ticket.

HST274 · 11 Mar 2024

AlterEgo said:
A timetable, surely? It's not hard to find out when a train leaves a station even if it isn't the station you're departing from. Even National Rail Enquiries will show you a full journey itinerary by clicking on the train you want in Live Departures.

There are only two main ways to use a restriction:

1) Using a timetable
2) Getting an itinerary from an accredited site which uses the restriction code to work out what is valid, and sell you a ticket.

Yes i am probably overestimating the difficulty of finding that out. I suppose the ultimate issue stems from the fact that the ticketing system is too overcomplicated in the first place, and such restrictions are as demonstrated easy to misinterpret. Maybe its less that someone is not able to find that out, but that they should ideally not have to.

Bletchleyite · 11 Mar 2024

HST274 said:
Yes i am probably overestimating the difficulty of finding that out. I suppose the ultimate issue stems from the fact that the ticketing system is too overcomplicated in the first place, and such restrictions are as demonstrated easy to misinterpret. Maybe its less that someone is not able to find that out, but that they should ideally not have to.

And they mostly don't. All they need to do is use a journey planner and see if the fare they have comes up as an option on the desired trains.

etr221 · 11 Mar 2024

My interpretation of 'Timed to depart...' is that it meant 'timetable time' (when it should depart), as distinct from 'clock time' (when it actually did).

Looking at the National Rail Enquiries web site, when I look up trains from B to D, it just gives me times as a train from B to D, and details gives no more, beyond saying how many stops (with option of clicking for details), unless I need to change, when it will say where the trains are 'towards'.

And as an 'ordinary' passenger, why should I need - or expect to need - anything more? So I'm not going to go looking for it...

When it comes to restrictions more generally, I recall many years ago the Canadians (I think CN, so pre VIA...) had a system of red, white and blue fares, and red, white and blue trains - which I think translated ito red fares being valid on any train, white on white and blue, and blue fares only on blue trains - I may have mixed up the colours, but that was the principle. And that I would suggest is the simplicity that the railway should be heading. Beyond saying that a train may change colour en route (and so what tickets are valid on it), what more do you need to know?

When I last bought a ticket, the TVM said tickets of certain types were only valid on certain trains, but without any explanation as to which, or what the restrictions were... And going to catch my train, there was an announcement: "We regret the (time1) train to Y is delayed. Your next fastest train to X [an intermediate station] is the (time2) to Z. Please ensure you have the correct ticket to travel on this train'. Without any indication of what tickets might be correct for either train, or whether tickets valid for the train (to Y) were, or were not, or might be valid on the recommended alternative train (to Z), or whether the announcement made them so.

Perhaps any train announcement should include which restrictions are - or are not - (which might be longer?) valid on it? Trivia question - which train has the longest list?

Bletchleyite · 11 Mar 2024

Nothing new in the world - BR once had White and Blue Savers.

What does "Not valid on trains timed to depart" actually mean?

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