Northern Short Forming Again

MichaelTrains · 19 Oct 2023

Currently at Bradford Interchange on the delayed 18:04 which is leaving passengers behind on the platform once again.

Why do Northern run inadequate two-car 195s on what effectively is a popular Leeds-Bradford-Manchester market?

This simply would not happen anywhere else in the country.

Are Northern that short of units that they must continuously short-form busy services?

RailUK Forums

scrapy · 19 Oct 2023

MichaelTrains said:
Are Northern that short of units that they must continuously short-form busy services?

Yes

Adam0984 · 20 Oct 2023

scrapy said:
Yes

Short, sweet but correct. And with the Calder Valley the 2 car will hit the peak somewhere so no ideal location, at least out of Leeds you've got the 1757 Bpool that stops at Pudsey, Bradford, Halifax, Sowerby and Hebden before parting ways

sd0733 · 20 Oct 2023

MichaelTrains said:
This simply would not happen anywhere else in the country.

Unfortunately, it happens in pretty much every single area of the country, there's booked small and shortformed trains everywhere that end up leaving people behind, many of them on routes less frequent than services through Bradford.

Moonshot · 20 Oct 2023

If a Northern service is booked as a 4 car unit but one of the units has a fault which precludes it from operating service, should the service be cancelled or run with just a 2 car unit?;

BPN2022 · 21 Oct 2023

Be even worse when 319s leave the fleet

Geeves · 21 Oct 2023

Northern have had 5 units sent away to cover other areas of the country and must have around 15 to 20 units stopped on various works and that includes 195s having their engines rebuilt. Then there's the 769s... Oh yes the 156s that came from EMR are knackered after being thrashed across country for years on end

td97 · 21 Oct 2023

MichaelTrains said:
Are Northern that short of units that they must continuously short-form busy services?

It is leaf fall season which is notorious for requiring trains to be removed from service to resolve wheel flats.

Geeves said:
Northern have had 5 units sent away to cover other areas of the country

When are the TfW loaned 150s due back?

Geeves said:
195s having their engines rebuilt.

Is that an expected maintenance procedure after 4 years of service?

MichaelTrains · 22 Oct 2023

Moonshot said:
If a Northern service is booked as a 4 car unit but one of the units has a fault which precludes it from operating service, should the service be cancelled or run with just a 2 car unit?;

Obviously, you run the 2-car service but I’ve known things as bad as they currently are.

skyhigh · 22 Oct 2023

td97 said:
It is leaf fall season which is notorious for requiring trains to be removed from service to resolve wheel flats.

Though it's not nearly as bad now everything is WSP fitted

td97 said:
Is that an expected maintenance procedure after 4 years of service?

Given the rough life there are always engine replacements/rebuilds going on any fleet. The question here is are engines living out the expected number of run hours...

MichaelTrains said:
This simply would not happen anywhere else in the country.

CrossCountry says hello.

Jamesrob637 · 8 Mar 2024

Bumping this thread as it's one of the oldest not to have been locked, yet still very relevant to thousands of Northern commuters, including those affected by the recent 331 transfers.

pokemonsuper9 · 8 Mar 2024

Jamesrob637 said:
Bumping this thread as it's one of the oldest not to have been locked, yet still very relevant to thousands of Northern commuters, including those affected by the recent 331 transfers.

Yes, on the Manc side there's definitely some issues.
A lot of the Airport-Blackpool are 4 cars, when 6 car is really needed at this point (especially so for peak time).
And to allow Airport-Blackpool to be 6 car there's DMUs running an EMU diagram (on a peak time only Wigan-Manchester)

Hopefully the 730s enter service soon so that the 323s can head up here.

The exile · 8 Mar 2024

skyhigh said:
CrossCountry says hello.

And GWR

MichaelTrains · 9 Mar 2024

I'd go as far to say Northern running 2 car 195s on the busy Leeds to Manchester Calders is disgraceful.

Why aren't these services all four car minimum?

I’m fed up of leaving Victoria crush-loaded.

Bovverboy · 9 Mar 2024

MichaelTrains said:
Why aren't these services all four car minimum?

Because running two-car sets is cheaper.

sportzbar · 9 Mar 2024

MichaelTrains said:
I'd go as far to say Northern running 2 car 195s on the busy Leeds to Manchester Calders is disgraceful.

Why aren't these services all four car minimum?

I’m fed up of leaving Victoria crush-loaded.

All services on the Calder Valley via Halifax are booked as either 3 or 4 car but unfortunately as trains are mechanical beings they can on occasion be taken out of service to fix things. Surely it's better to run a 2 car than cancel the service altogether?

Bovverboy · 9 Mar 2024

sportzbar said:
All services on the Calder Valley via Halifax are booked as either 3 or 4 car but unfortunately as trains are mechanical beings they can on occasion be taken out of service to fix things. Surely it's better to run a 2 car than cancel the service altogether?

Is it better to short form a train than to keep a couple of spare sets to cover 'eventualities'?

sportzbar · 9 Mar 2024

Bovverboy said:
Is it better to short form a train than to keep a couple of spare sets to cover 'eventualities'?

But then surely if you keep a couple of "spare sets" then more short forming will happen. Most TOCS are short of units and would love to have just that. Spare sets than they can drop into service when something goes wrong.

Occasionally the stars align and a spare set can be found. Only a few weeks ago a 4 car set on the Chester-Leeds service developed a fault on the rear unit. On arrival at Victoria it was met on platform 6 with that "spare unit" which was attached whilst the rear unit was uncoupled and taken for attention.

But this is quite rare and having spare sets sat around not earning money just doesn't make financial sense....

Bovverboy · 9 Mar 2024

sportzbar said:
But then surely if you keep a couple of "spare sets" then more short forming will happen.

You mean, if the 'spare sets' were taken from the existing fleet? That's not what I had in mind.

sportzbar said:
Most TOCS are short of units

Through choice.

sportzbar said:
But this is quite rare and having spare sets sat around not earning money just doesn't make financial sense....

Indeed.

td97 · 9 Mar 2024

The other major issue is overcrowding on services which are booked an insufficient length. Blackburn to Rochdale as 2 carriages is one example.
Is the unit that had the alternator fire last autumn still out of service?

skyhigh · 9 Mar 2024

td97 said:
Is the unit that had the alternator fire last autumn still out of service?

Yes, I doubt it'll be back in service this year.

AMD · 9 Mar 2024

Bovverboy said:
Through choice.

There is also the element of how much can be afforded to have lying about spare, bearing in mind that Northern is arms length govmnt owned so the treasury has a hand in the background. As an example a 156 unit costs around £4k a WEEK in leasing charges, then there's fuel, parts, maintenance etc to keep it road worthy, so that's a lot of £3.50 advance singles from Victoria to Rochdale to sell to pay for it!

There is a couple of issues with waiting parts (especially the 331s out of Allerton) at the moment which is stretching the fleet a bit more than usual.

Bovverboy · 9 Mar 2024

AMD said:
There is also the element of how much can be afforded to have lying about spare, bearing in mind that Northern is arms length govmnt owned so the treasury has a hand in the background.

The government ultimately decides everything, irrespective of whether the TOC is directly government controlled or not.

AMD said:
As an example a 156 unit costs around £4k a WEEK in leasing charges, then there's fuel, parts, maintenance etc to keep it road worthy, so that's a lot of £3.50 advance singles from Victoria to Rochdale to sell to pay for it!

You don't incur fuel, parts, and maintenance costs to keep a unit spare, only if you decide to use it.

AMD said:
There is a couple of issues with waiting parts (especially the 331s out of Allerton) at the moment which is stretching the fleet a bit more than usual.

Reason to keep a couple of units spare?

skyhigh · 9 Mar 2024

Bovverboy said:
Reason to keep a couple of units spare?

Theoretically the fleet is sized to have spare units based on normal usage.

However, availability isn't great at the moment due to a mixture of CAF issues and mods in progress so there are more units stopped than planned.

northwichcat · 9 Mar 2024

AMD said:
As an example a 156 unit costs around £4k a WEEK in leasing charges, then there's fuel, parts, maintenance etc to keep it road worthy, so that's a lot of £3.50 advance singles from Victoria to Rochdale to sell to pay for it!

Fares within a PTE area are generally lower than the Northern average.

Chester to Delamere is £7.20 single and £8.50 or £10 return for a journey that's 9 miles each way.

Bovverboy · 9 Mar 2024

skyhigh said:
Theoretically the fleet is sized to have spare units based on normal usage.

However, availability isn't great at the moment due to a mixture of CAF issues and mods in progress so there are more units stopped than planned.

Exactly, to which the solution is to either short-form trains or cancel them altogether. Short-formed and cancelled trains will always be with us, it's a feature of the current franchising system.

JonathanH · 9 Mar 2024

Bovverboy said:
Short-formed and cancelled trains will always be with us, it's a feature of the current franchising system.

It would be a feature of any railway that relies on external funding.

MichaelTrains · 10 Mar 2024

I disagree with the person who says all Leeds to Manchester via the Calder are all 3/4 car.

It's either 2 car or 4 car from what I experience and it’s no fun having to stand for 30/40 minutes to or from Manchester on a crush loaded 195.

Geeves · 10 Mar 2024

In my experience control (at Northern) will try and add the missing carriages back if they can. I don't think theres a conspiracy to short form on purpose. The 195s are currently down due to engine rebuilds, also legacy units are being used on what should be electric work in the NW. Northern won't keep units spare for the sake of it and the government isn't involved at such a micro management level thankfully. I just have visions of a man from the Treasury sat in control!

Bovverboy · 10 Mar 2024

MichaelTrains said:
I disagree with the person who says all Leeds to Manchester via the Calder are all 3/4 car.

It's either 2 car or 4 car from what I experience and it’s no fun having to stand for 30/40 minutes to or from Manchester on a crush loaded 195.

I think Sportzbar's point was that the Calder Valley 195 are booked 3 or 4 car, he wasn't challenging the notion that they often turn up as 2-car. If you never see a 3-car set, it may be that the standard formation is 4-car, even if often reduced to 2-car.

Northern Short Forming Again

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