Trivia: More than one operator on town services

Roger1973 · 11 Mar 2024

Kite159 said:
Reading with the 22 'pink' route run by Reading Buses Monday to Saturday and as a 40C ran by Thames Travel on Sundays. Both start in the town centre and end up in Caversham

Evening and / or Sunday service operated on council tender by a different operator used to be fairly common (although not always helpful to passengers in terms of ticket acceptance and availability of timetables, unless the county council took responsibility for roadside information.) I guess tendered evening / Sunday services are less common now than they were a while ago, as are small operators who will go for anything tendered.

I can't remember the detail now, but remember one route in North Staffordshire - must have been early 90s - where the main commercial service was Potteries (PMT), and there were separate county council contracts for the weekday evening service, Sunday service, and a couple of round trips early on Saturdays. Each of those was a different operator - from memory, Midland Red North and Bakers (Biddulph) were two, but I can't remember the third.

In terms of now, Luton has Centrebus route 10 and Arriva route 27 between Luton Town Centre and Marsh Farm, although they don't follow the same route between the two.

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Kite159 · 11 Mar 2024

Roger1973 said:
Evening and / or Sunday service operated on council tender by a different operator used to be fairly common (although not always helpful to passengers in terms of ticket acceptance and availability of timetables, unless the county council took responsibility for roadside information.) I guess tendered evening / Sunday services are less common now than they were a while ago, as are small operators who will go for anything tendered.

I can't remember the detail now, but remember one route in North Staffordshire - must have been early 90s - where the main commercial service was Potteries (PMT), and there were separate county council contracts for the weekday evening service, Sunday service, and a couple of round trips early on Saturdays. Each of those was a different operator - from memory, Midland Red North and Bakers (Biddulph) were two, but I can't remember the third.

In terms of now, Luton has Centrebus route 10 and Arriva route 27 between Luton Town Centre and Marsh Farm, although they don't follow the same route between the two.

Also happens in Slough with a route 12 service from the town centre to Burnham. Slightly different terminus point [on a one-way loop of a housing estate]. Monday - Saturday run by First Bus with a daily return service in the evening ran by Thames Valley buses. Thames Valley also runs the Sunday service which also extends to Heathrow after serving Burnham so not quite a like for like replacement.

At least with the single fares, someone won't buy a return on a daytime service on First and get turned away when they try and use the last bus of the day/

DunsBus · 11 Mar 2024

Roger1973 said:
Evening and / or Sunday service operated on council tender by a different operator used to be fairly common (although not always helpful to passengers in terms of ticket acceptance and availability of timetables, unless the county council took responsibility for roadside information.) I guess tendered evening / Sunday services are less common now than they were a while ago, as are small operators who will go for anything tendered.

I can't remember the detail now, but remember one route in North Staffordshire - must have been early 90s - where the main commercial service was Potteries (PMT), and there were separate county council contracts for the weekday evening service, Sunday service, and a couple of round trips early on Saturdays. Each of those was a different operator - from memory, Midland Red North and Bakers (Biddulph) were two, but I can't remember the third.

In terms of now, Luton has Centrebus route 10 and Arriva route 27 between Luton Town Centre and Marsh Farm, although they don't follow the same route between the two.

I can remember the immediate post-deregulation period in Edinburgh when Eastern Scottish ran evening and Sunday journeys on several LRT* city services; likewise, LRT ran Sunday journeys on one service which was run by Eastern Scottish during the week. Neither operator made a mention on the relevant timetables of the other's involvement, so you needed two timetables (one LRT, one Eastern Scottish) for the full service.

(*LRT - Lothian Region Transport)

LT02 NVV · 12 Mar 2024

Roger1973 said:
Evening and / or Sunday service operated on council tender by a different operator used to be fairly common (although not always helpful to passengers in terms of ticket acceptance and availability of timetables, unless the county council took responsibility for roadside information.)

Yeah, I mentioned some of the First Glasgow services that SPT have other bus groups run during those times. Pretty sure there’s a couple of McGills services like them too.

Welshman · 12 Mar 2024

RustySpoons said:
Interesting reading, thanks!

Happens a lot more than I thought it would!

It certainly does :lol:

To add yet another to the pot, whereas Arriva operates the town services in Rhyl, there is one interesting exception in that M&H Coaches runs a twice-a-day service 47 to Brynhedydd & Highfield Park in marginal time on its service 45 to Glan Clywd Hospital.

richw · 12 Mar 2024

Roger1973 said:
Evening and / or Sunday service operated on council tender by a different operator used to be fairly common (although not always helpful to passengers in terms of ticket acceptance and availability of timetables, unless the county council took responsibility for roadside information.) I guess tendered evening / Sunday services are less common now than they were a while ago, as are small operators who will go for anything tendered.

This is the case on a lot of commercial routes in Cornwall operated by First. Go ahead run the evening and Sunday tender. Ticket acceptance is in place, in fact ticket acceptance is in place in Cornwall across all routes involving members of the enhanced partnership. You could take a route operated by First to go from A to B buying a return and use the return from B to A on an alternative route by go ahead.

156421 · 12 Mar 2024

X38 Derby to Burton is run by Arriva and Trent Barton

WM Bus · 12 Mar 2024

RustySpoons said:
Are there any examples in the UK of a town/local service operated by more than one operator? Not necessarily a competing operator, but two (or more) operators running a local service, either on the same route or a taking a different route but reaching the same destination within the same town.

Diamond/National Express 50 in Birmingham. Diamond terminate short at the Maypole.
71 Chelmsley Wood to Sutton Coldfield run by Stagecoach Rugby and Diamond on the 96 on Sunday currently and both run by National Express Perry Barr Monday to Saturday daytime.
Diamond 002 Bartley Green to Merry Hill and is run under an extension of the X21 on Sundays by National Express. Same arrangement for the 4H with National Express running Sundays.

Stagecoach and Flexibus both run a number 5 town service in Stratford.

Jordan Adam · 12 Mar 2024

In Inverurie the Stagecoach Bluebird 37, Watermill Coaches 22, 49, 240, 248 & 308 and the Premier Coaches 421 all cover much of the same areas in the northern side of the town albeit on slightly different routes.

kkong said:
In Aberdeen, First route 12 (Torry - Heathryfold) has similar end points to Stagecoach route 59 (Balnagask - Northfield).

Before the April 2008 First Aberdeen changes the 12 also operated to Northfield via Westburn Road, Foresterhill Road and Provost Fraser Drive as per the 59, the only difference between them back then being that in Torry the 12 went clockwise while the 59 went anti-clockwise (as they still do to this day).

This was mostly a hangover from deregulation and the bus war that ensued after. Northern Scottish (Stagecoach Bluebirds predecessor) operated the Services 9 and 10 (Northfield- Torry), after deregulation Northern decided to use 5x series numbers for their city services and as such the 9/10 were renumbered to 58/59 - the 58/59 being the same route but operating in opposite directions around Torry/Balnagask. Around the same time Grampian launched competing services numbered 8 (Northfield - Torry) and 12 (Northfield - Balnagask). To cut a long story short the bus wars ended in an agreement where Northern withdrew the 58 and Grampian retained the 12 which by this point had been merged with the 8 and was identical to the 58.

Falcon1200 · 12 Mar 2024

Deerfold said:
In Oxford Stagecoach's 1 and Oxford Bus Company's 5 are basically the same route and generally run alternately taking almost all the same tickets (some wider area tickets are only valid on one operator).

Also in Oxford the City Centre/Barton 8 service is joint between Stagecoach and Oxford Bus Co.

Acfb · 12 Mar 2024

DELETED POST

Simon75 · 13 Mar 2024

D&G and Scraggs run the 5 Hanley to Abbey Hulton in Stoke-on-Trent

Roger1973 · 13 Mar 2024

DunsBus said:
I can remember the immediate post-deregulation period in Edinburgh when Eastern Scottish ran evening and Sunday journeys on several LRT* city services; likewise, LRT ran Sunday journeys on one service which was run by Eastern Scottish during the week. Neither operator made a mention on the relevant timetables of the other's involvement, so you needed two timetables (one LRT, one Eastern Scottish) for the full service.

(*LRT - Lothian Region Transport)

If I remember right, about 20 years ago, round Swindon, Thamesdown ran the (tendered) Sunday service on some of the rural routes (Stagecoach territory in the week) and Stagecoach did the (also tendered) Sunday town services that Thamesdown did in the week. At least at that time, Swindon Council produced the magazine style timetable book.

BrumKev · 13 Mar 2024

NX West Midlands run the 72 between Solihull and Chelmsley Wood.

Landflight run the A10 weekdays between the two towns aswell

Deerfold · 13 Mar 2024

156421 said:
X38 Derby to Burton is run by Arriva and Trent Barton

Unlike many jointly operated routes where operators alternate, this every 20 minute service has 2 Arriva services followed by 2 trentbarton services for most of the day. Bustimes.org seems confused and has the trentbarton times listed under the Arriva listing.

1D53 · 13 Mar 2024

A few examples in West Yorkshire where small independant operators run the daytime service and First run the evening and Sunday service. 9, 11 and 64 being examples.

SCH117X · 13 Mar 2024

156421 said:
X38 Derby to Burton is run by Arriva and Trent Barton

Not exactly a town service as per the thread topic but in that respect a new one from 8 April will be East Yorkshire also working the 31X between York and Helsmley/Kirbymoorside as well as Reliance.

ShaunyFlynn · 14 Mar 2024

In Macclesfield, D&G Bus run local routes 3, 10, 19 & 19A and High Peak Buses run local routes 14 & 14A. These two companies are owned by the same parent company but do not accept each others tickets unless you buy a Macclesfield Weekrider.

Also, some of the services that go out of town in recent years have been rerouted to serve parts of Macclesfield where local buses used to once roam. These are the 391, 392 & 393 ran by Belle Vue and the 58 ran by High Peak buses.

156421 · 14 Mar 2024

ShaunyFlynn said:
These two companies are owned by the same parent company but do not accept each others tickets unless you buy a Macclesfield Weekrider.

So it's not just the railways which are fragmented...

WibbleWobble · 14 Mar 2024

TheGrandWazoo said:
Marlborough town service in Wiltshire is operated by Salisbury Reds, and Swindon Bus Co, though they are both parts of Go South Coast.

Not anymore - the whole lot is run by Swindon Bus Co.

RustySpoons · 14 Mar 2024

Would I be right in saying that if Operator A ran a tendered service from Town A to Suburb A and Operator B ran a commercial service from Town B to Suburb A via Town A on a similar route Operator A wouldn't be able to claim the tender?

Roger1973 · 14 Mar 2024

RustySpoons said:
Would I be right in saying that if Operator A ran a tendered service from Town A to Suburb A and Operator B ran a commercial service from Town B to Suburb A via Town A on a similar route Operator A wouldn't be able to claim the tender?

I'm not quite sure I've understood this right, but I think the question would be why the council was putting on a tendered service that wasn't really needed because there was a commercial service there already. Assuming we're talking about services at the same time of day / week, and following the same route through suburb A, and a commercial service with a comparable frequency.

I wouldn't have thought that any council would do that. If the commercial service came along after the tendered service was already there, then the council would have some thinking to do, and might wait and see how sustainable the commercial service was rather than immediately give notice on the tendered service.

There are going to be occasions when there's a slight overlap between tendered and commercial services, for example a tendered service from villages in to a town may have some overlap at the town end with local services, or a tendered service from one suburb that doesn't have a commercial service might share a few stops at the town end of the route with either commercial town services or interurban routes.

There were some cases where councils would put boarding restrictions on a tendered service where it crossed paths with a commercial service, or would at least ensure that the fares didn't undercut the commercial service.

Before deregulation, it was not uncommon for interurban (mostly National Bus Company) routes not to carry local passengers within the urban area served by a corporation transport operator. This was not just about protecting the corporation operator - it also got the interurban route through to / from the town centre quicker than it would have, and kept capacity on the interurban route for passengers who wanted to travel beyond the urban boundary. Trent continued to do this on some routes from Nottingham at least in to the early 1990s.

noddingdonkey · 15 Mar 2024

1D53 said:
A few examples in West Yorkshire where small independant operators run the daytime service and First run the evening and Sunday service. 9, 11 and 64 being examples.

And plenty that are the other way round because First didn't want to run the evening service commercially do Metro tendered it and an indie won.

In a couple of weeks time Huddersfield to Slaithwaite will have First 382/3, Stagecoach (Bee Network) 184 and Team Pennine 396, albeit serving stops a few streets apart.

The 396 also serves Huddersfield-Milnsbridge alongside First's 301/2

RustySpoons · 15 Mar 2024

Roger1973 said:
I'm not quite sure I've understood this right, but I think the question would be why the council was putting on a tendered service that wasn't really needed because there was a commercial service there already. Assuming we're talking about services at the same time of day / week, and following the same route through suburb A, and a commercial service with a comparable frequency.

Sorry, I re-wrote it a few times to try and make it make more sense.

I was just thinking of an example where Hulley's (if memory serves me correctly) registered/extended a commercial service that mostly ran alongside an existing tendered service and, again if memory serves me correctly, the tender for the existing service was withdrawn.

northwichcat · 15 Mar 2024

If you asked the question 15 years ago you probably would have got a long list of towns with a contracted evening or Sunday local service, and a commerical Mon-Sat daytime service. However, with council budget cuts an increasing number of evening and Sunday services have gone, and even daytime services have been combined so a diverted service replaces a town service.

Deerfold · 15 Mar 2024

northwichcat said:
If you asked the question 15 years ago you probably would have got a long list of towns with a contracted evening or Sunday local service, and a commerical Mon-Sat daytime service. However, with council budget cuts an increasing number of evening and Sunday services have gone, and even daytime services have been combined so a diverted service replaces a town service.

Not to mention a lot of actual competition. I can think of a couple of dozen routes in West Yorkshire then.

Roger1973 · 15 Mar 2024

RustySpoons said:
Sorry, I re-wrote it a few times to try and make it make more sense.

I was just thinking of an example where Hulley's (if memory serves me correctly) registered/extended a commercial service that mostly ran alongside an existing tendered service and, again if memory serves me correctly, the tender for the existing service was withdrawn.

I see.

I don't know Hulley's part of the world very well, and don't know anything about the specifics here.

It's increasingly unusual for operators to see a new commercial opportunity, but in the circumstances, then yes, it's likely that the council would give notice on their contracted service once they are sure it's not a short term 'spoiler' (there's nothing in law to say what the notice period on a contract can be, so there would probably be some overlap.)

There have been one or two operations so keen to compete with everyone that they have even started running against tendered routes. I think Webber Bus in Somerset may have done that, and not sure it necessarily did them any good in the long run.

Although it's not entirely unknown for an operator who bid unsuccessfully for a contract, to decide that maybe the service they had bid for is actually commercial after all, then often de-register again a short while after the other operator has withdrawn and try again at the next tender exercise. I have an idea there's powers for councils to take action against operators who do that, but not immediately aware of any council that's done it. I think it may be round competition / fair trading law rather than anything that comes under DfT or the Traffic Commissioners, and not sure how quick the competition authorities will / would act.

northwichcat · 15 Mar 2024

Roger1973 said:
There have been one or two operations so keen to compete with everyone that they have even started running against tendered routes. I think Webber Bus in Somerset may have done that, and not sure it necessarily did them any good in the long run.

As councils aren't legally allowed to subside services where there's a commercial alternative, it usually means if the operator of the contracted service continues then they made a decision to continue to run it without a council subsidy. The routes connecting Warrington to other towns have been subject to this over the years. A little operator called Warrington Coachways decided to compete with the council owned operator for the Altrincham service, while GHA Coaches did the same for the Northwich service. The short term effect was the council owned operator revised their route/times and ran the service commerically. The long term effect is both routes have reverted to subsided services under a single operator.

RustySpoons said:
I was just thinking of an example where Hulley's (if memory serves me correctly) registered/extended a commercial service that mostly ran alongside an existing tendered service and, again if memory serves me correctly, the tender for the existing service was withdrawn.

There might be more than one example of them doing that but they did register an X1 Manchester Airport to Ashbourne service which saw both the 108 and 109 contracts with D&G Bus cancelled. As the X1 was registered to run non-stop between Macclesfield and Manchester Airport it meant the 130 was unaffected. The first two days of the new X1 saw very few services run and then they pulled the plug altogether saying they had lost drivers and been unable to replace them.

I'm not sure why but the emergency contracts Staffordshire council put out for the 108 and 109 were different to the original timetable and went to two different operators, which lost through connections.

DanNCL · 15 Mar 2024

On a technicality you could count the 685 between Newcastle and Carlisle, as trips are operated both by Stagecoach North East and Stagecoach Cumbria.
Historically the route was jointly ran by Stagecoach Cumbria and Arriva North East.

RustySpoons · 16 Mar 2024

northwichcat said:
As councils aren't legally allowed to subside services where there's a commercial alternative, it usually means if the operator of the contracted service continues then they made a decision to continue to run it without a council subsidy. The routes connecting Warrington to other towns have been subject to this over the years. A little operator called Warrington Coachways decided to compete with the council owned operator for the Altrincham service, while GHA Coaches did the same for the Northwich service. The short term effect was the council owned operator revised their route/times and ran the service commerically. The long term effect is both routes have reverted to subsided services under a single operator.

There might be more than one example of them doing that but they did register an X1 Manchester Airport to Ashbourne service which saw both the 108 and 109 contracts with D&G Bus cancelled. As the X1 was registered to run non-stop between Macclesfield and Manchester Airport it meant the 130 was unaffected. The first two days of the new X1 saw very few services run and then they pulled the plug altogether saying they had lost drivers and been unable to replace them.

I'm not sure why but the emergency contracts Staffordshire council put out for the 108 and 109 were different to the original timetable and went to two different operators, which lost through connections.

Ahh yes, I think that's what I could've been thinking of.

Thanks to you and @Roger1973 for the additional info.

northwichcat said:
If you asked the question 15 years ago you probably would have got a long list of towns with a contracted evening or Sunday local service, and a commerical Mon-Sat daytime service. However, with council budget cuts an increasing number of evening and Sunday services have gone, and even daytime services have been combined so a diverted service replaces a town service.

In my local area evening and sunday services have recently been reinstated after probably 10+ years thanks to the additional funding from the failed HS2 expansion. Unfortunately they mostly run carrying fresh air, though it is still early days I suppose as they've only been running again for a month or so.

Trivia: More than one operator on town services

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