TfL Fare Caledonian Road & Barnsbury to Watford Junction

Nnnagoya · 12 Mar 2024

Hello,

Looking at the single fare finder, Caledonian Road & Barnsbury to Watford Junction is as below.

This obviously implies the route should be taking the Overground Mildmay Line to Willesden Junction, interchange for the Overground Lioness Line to Watford Junction.

The fare above per se covers zone 2 to 10. Thus, passengers do not even need to touch the pink reader at Willesden Junction.

However, a brilliant passenger would know that the fastest route below would only take 38 minutes, rather than the above Overground route which takes more than an hour.
Step 1. Overground Mildmay Line to Highbury & Islington
Step 2. Victoria Line to Euston
Step 3. National Rail to Watford Junction.

I wonder how much the passenger would be charged when using the above fastest route via Euston. Peak £12.5/Off-peak £9? However, this is not listed in the single fare finder as the above screenshot.

However, if you change the departure station to Dalston Kingsland, the single fare finder would be able to show the full fare with the alternative fare, as the screenshot provided below.

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bakerstreet · 12 Mar 2024

I haven’t had experience of this particular fare but I have never been charged a fare which is different to that which is in that database.

So my guess in this case - as there is just one fare quoted, that is the fare that will be charged from Caledonian Rd & Barnsbury.

In practice the only way to be sure is to try it.

There are other instances where the opposite occurs. Even if you go via a cheaper (non Zone 1) route, and touch a pink reader, if no cheaper fares are programmed / defined then the Zone 1 fare will be charged.

EDIT ** see additional thoughts below re the difference between Oyster (adult) (discounted) & Contactless

akm · 13 Mar 2024

If a given flow (Origin and Destination) is shown in Single Fare Finder*, then you will be charged one of the listed fares (ignoring any questions of caps etc). In this case, there's only one, so no matter what you do in between - so long as you stay within maximum journey time - then you will be charged the listed fare.

* I say this to avoid any quibble over those flows that aren't listed at all (eg Reading to Waterloo NR), for which TfL make no assertions about what you will be charged

greatkingrat · 13 Mar 2024

akm said:
If a given flow (Origin and Destination) is shown in Single Fare Finder*, then you will be charged one of the listed fares (ignoring any questions of caps etc). In this case, there's only one, so no matter what you do in between - so long as you stay within maximum journey time - then you will be charged the listed fare

* I say this to avoid any quibble over those flows that aren't listed at all (eg Reading to Waterloo NR), for which TfL make no assertions about what you will be charged

I don't think it is quite that simple, particularly if you are passing through intermediate gatelines. Let's say you are travelling from Caledonian Road & Barnsbury to Harlesden. The only fare listed is £2.10/£1.90 assuming zones 2-3.

If you try and travel via Euston, then when you touch out at Euston LU, you will be charged £3.40/£2.80 for a zone 1-2 journey. Subsequently touching in at Euston NR and out at Harlesden, doesn't give you a refund of what you have already paid, so the overall charge will still be £3.40/£2.80.

If instead you went Caledonian Road & Barnsbury - Highbury & Islington - Oxford Circus - Harlesden, then you would only be charged £2.10/£1.90 because the system has no way of knowing you went via zone 1.

akm · 13 Mar 2024

Yeah I suppose there is that for Oyster on-card. But for any journey that uses the back office (so, contactless or adult undiscounted Oyster, after reprocessing) what I said is true.

miklcct · 13 Mar 2024

Nnnagoya said:
This obviously implies the route should be taking the Overground Mildmay Line to Willesden Junction, interchange for the Overground Lioness Line to Watford Junction.

The fare above per se covers zone 2 to 10. Thus, passengers do not even need to touch the pink reader at Willesden Junction.

However, a brilliant passenger would know that the fastest route below would only take 38 minutes, rather than the above Overground route which takes more than an hour.
Step 1. Overground Mildmay Line to Highbury & Islington
Step 2. Victoria Line to Euston
Step 3. National Rail to Watford Junction.

I wonder how much the passenger would be charged when using the above fastest route via Euston. Peak £12.5/Off-peak £9? However, this is not listed in the single fare finder as the above screenshot.

TfL assumes that passengers from / to North London Line stations between Kensal Rise and Caledonian Road & Barnsbury will change at Willesden Junction, as TfL thinks that there is no viable Zone 1 route which does not pass intermediate gatelines. The route you mentioned above is very circuitous if you draw it on a map, as it involves going east, then south-west, then north-west.

However, for destinations east of Highbury & Islington, there is a viable Zone 1 route which enters Central London by changing at Queen's Park onto the Bakerloo, then out at Highbury & Islington, there a tap at Willesden Junction (or a change at West Hampstead for Jubilee / Thameslink destinations) is needed to confirm that the passenger changes to the North London Line and does not enter Zone 1 as a result.

If I take a map and want to travel from Caledonian Road & Barnsbury, there is no doubt that I will head to the westbound platform, however, if I start from Highbury & Islington, I will probably head to Euston instead on Victoria line if cost isn't a problem.

bakerstreet · 14 Mar 2024

akm said:
Yeah I suppose there is that for Oyster on-card. But for any journey that uses the back office (so, contactless or adult undiscounted Oyster, after reprocessing) what I said is true.

Actually this and its previous post

greatkingrat said:
I don't think it is quite that simple, particularly if you are passing through intermediate gatelines. Let's say you are travelling from Caledonian Road & Barnsbury to Harlesden. The only fare listed is £2.10/£1.90 assuming zones 2-3.

If you try and travel via Euston, then when you touch out at Euston LU, you will be charged £3.40/£2.80 for a zone 1-2 journey. Subsequently touching in at Euston NR and out at Harlesden, doesn't give you a refund of what you have already paid, so the overall charge will still be £3.40/£2.80.

If instead you went Caledonian Road & Barnsbury - Highbury & Islington - Oxford Circus - Harlesden, then you would only be charged £2.10/£1.90 because the system has no way of knowing you went via zone 1.

are v important points.
Oyster won’t refund an overcharge midway through a journey, whilst contactless will always charge correctly.
However my experience has been that if you are overcharged on Oyster you will be refunded.

Nnnagoya · 14 Mar 2024

SOLVED

I tried with my National Railcard discounted Oyster Card. As expected, the fare is charged exactly the same as the single fare finder, even though the journey went through zone 1.

Off-Peak fare is £3.4. I have one-third off so it is £2.2.

ANOTHER PROBLEM

I cannot use the single fare finder to find the fare of the below journey:

Guys please try it for me but "no fares found" is definitely not making sense.

I found out when you choose any Central Line stations east of Leyton (including Leyton) as the departure station (e.g. Leyton, Leytonstone, Snarebrook etc.) and choose Custom House Elizabeth Line Station as the destination station, no fares would be found.

The same problem happens for the fare of Hayes & Harlington to Hatton Cross or Hounslow West.

I wonder if the system would charge the maximum fare when making these journeys.

Kite159 · 14 Mar 2024

Now it's been flagged up, no doubt someone whom works for the TfL pricing team will make a note and will change that particular flow to add a "Via Zone 1" fare for passengers going via Euston.

(Reminds me of when there is no fare found for Clapham Junction to London Euston going via Willesden Junction where the system will charge for a standard zone 2 - zone 1 'tfl' fare.)

MikeWh · 15 Mar 2024

I will look into this properly in a day or so, but one thing to note is that you will be overcharged if you do Watford Junction to Euston to Caledonian Road and Barnsbury. As your Oyster card is Railcard discounted it won't go through the back office overnight.

plugwash · 15 Mar 2024

Nnnagoya said:
I wonder if the system would charge the maximum fare when making these journeys.

My understaning is that TFL suppress some fares for journeys they see as "nonsensical" from appearing in the fare finder, but fares for such journeys do in-fact exist.

I presume TFL thinks that the sensible way to get from the eastern end of the central line to Custom house is to change to the DLR at stratford. It's strange that they do show a fare from Stratford itself though.

jon81uk · 15 Mar 2024

Nnnagoya said:
ANOTHER PROBLEM

I cannot use the single fare finder to find the fare of the below journey:

Guys please try it for me but "no fares found" is definitely not making sense.

I found out when you choose any Central Line stations east of Leyton (including Leyton) as the departure station (e.g. Leyton, Leytonstone, Snarebrook etc.) and choose Custom House Elizabeth Line Station as the destination station, no fares would be found.

The same problem happens for the fare of Hayes & Harlington to Hatton Cross or Hounslow West.

I wonder if the system would charge the maximum fare when making these journeys.

There is a fare for Epping central line to Custom House DLR of £3 peak £2 off-peak. Most people would change at Stratford for the DLR (or jubilee and change again at Canning Town) instead of going all the way into zone one (or two for Whitechapel I guess) for Elizabeth line and back out.

Nnnagoya · 15 Mar 2024

jon81uk said:
There is a fare for Epping central line to Custom House DLR of £3 peak £2 off-peak. Most people would change at Stratford for the DLR (or jubilee and change again at Canning Town) instead of going all the way into zone one (or two for Whitechapel I guess) for Elizabeth line and back out.

There’s always a presumption route but I think going from Epping to Custom House would make sense to interchange for the Elizabeth Line at Liverpool Street, especially the DLR is not always running at the weekend (e.g. tomorrow).

For Hayes & Harlington to Hatton Cross/Hounslow West, I think the presumption route should be taking the Elizabeth Line to Heathrow Terminal 2&3, then interchange for the Piccadilly Line.
At least, this is the best route showing on Google Map.

jon81uk · 15 Mar 2024

Nnnagoya said:
There’s always a presumption route but I think going from Epping to Custom House would make sense to interchange for the Elizabeth Line at Liverpool Street, especially the DLR is not always running at the weekend (e.g. tomorrow).

If the presumed route was via Liverpool Street then a zone 1 premium would be charged. But on Elizabeth Line its also possible to get on at Stratford, change at Whitechapel to an Eastbound service down to Custom House and avoid zone 1.

This weekend its only the Stratford International to Star Lane bit of the DLR that is closed, so still possible to do Stratford to Canning Town on Jubilee Line and then get the DLR from there to Custom House, avoiding zone 1. In fact that is the reccomended route on the journey planner anyway at 45 minutes, if you tell the TfL journey planner for fewest changes then it would suggest changing at Liverpool St, but an overall journey of 1hr3min doesn't seem worth the extra time given that changing at Stratford would be quicker than changing Liverpool St anyway.

Watershed · 15 Mar 2024

Nnnagoya said:
For Hayes & Harlington to Hatton Cross/Hounslow West, I think the presumption route should be taking the Elizabeth Line to Heathrow Terminal 2&3, then interchange for the Piccadilly Line.
At least, this is the best route showing on Google Map.

There's no 'out of station interchange' between the Underground and National Rail stations at Heathrow (at any of the terminals), so you'll be charged for two separate journeys: one from Hayes & Harlington to Heathrow and another from there to Hounslow West etc.

Somewhat bizarrely, journeys between Heathrow and Hatton Cross became free when TfL made journeys between Heathrow and Zone 1 (or stations reached via Zone 1) charged as peak all day. Given this change, I'm not sure what the point of Hatton Cross being dual-zoned as zones 5/6 is anymore.

It opens up a good 'splitting' opportunity though; you can now pay just the fare to/from Zone 5 if you touch out and back in at Hatton Cross - thus avoiding both the extra cost of a fare to/from Zone 6, as well as the extra cost of a peak fare (if travelling off-peak).

TfL Fare Caledonian Road & Barnsbury to Watford Junction

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