E-Tickets on dead phones - a possible solution?

MotCO · 14 Mar 2024

We have seen many posts where passengers are unable to produce a ticket on a train when asked, because their phone, which held the ticket, has run out of battery. This then tends to lead to the whole, presumably expensive, exercise of filing a report for prosecution.

Would a simpler option be for Ticket Inspectors to carry a mobile phone battery pack and offer to lend the pack to the passenger for a fixed fee of say £20, to enable the phone to be woken from the dead and a ticket produced for inspection. (The loan will only be for a couple of minutes just to retrieve the ticket.) In this way money is collected without having to incur the cost of initiating a prosecution. If the passenger refuses, then the usual processes kick in.

The only other thing is whether the Ticket Inspector needs to issue a zero cost ticket to enable the passenger to pass through barriers at the journey's end since presumably the phone will be dead again.

Any thoughts?

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jamiearmley · 14 Mar 2024

As an 'inspector', I already do this. Obviously, no charge is made.

The approach quickly sorts the wheat from the chaff. It also demonstrates reasonableness and compassion not just to the person whose phone has died, but also those quietly observing. Further, I firmly believe that allowing someone to leave your train with a flat phone battery places them at risk, which can easily be avoided by carrying a simple piece of kit.

It can however also escalate the situation : just before Xmas when I offered my charger, an evader who knew he would be quickly found out decided that the best course of action was to shove me the length of the carriage. He's off to court, understandably.

I do agree that a simple multi connector charger is an important tool in the customer service armoury, and I regularly advocate for this. However, the ultimate responsibility should remain with the ticket holder - adult life is about taking responsibility for yourself, after all.

freddie1729 · 14 Mar 2024

Probably not practical given the range of ticket retailers, but the ideal solution would be to have a way for the ticket inspector to look up your ticket on a central database. Just like if you go to a concert or board a plane and you lose your ticket/boarding pass.

Providing a charger is the least they could do though. I don't think any charge should be made, what would the purpose be other than to extort someone already in a sticky situation?

The assertion that people who run out of battery are not taking responsibility for themselves is ridiculous frankly. Technology can be unpredictable and phones can run out of battery unexpectedly.

lyesbkz · 14 Mar 2024

MotCO said:
This then tends to lead to the whole, presumably expensive, exercise of filing a report for prosecution.

I imagine that the admin fee we usually see added to the settlement offer goes some (most?) of the way to covering these costs.

MotCO said:
offer to lend the pack to the passenger for a fixed fee of say £20

I'm not sure there is any way to present this idea to people as being passenger-friendly and not just another way to rip people off, even if it's done with good intentions. I can already imagine the headlines about passengers being charged £20 to charge their phone for two minutes.

If it's a chargeable service then would passengers be entitled to expect it after some time? If one day the member of staff doesn't have one on them or it's broken or out of charge, and the passenger would have been happy to pay the £20 but doesn't have the option to do so on that occasion, would it be reasonable for them to argue that they shouldn't be penalised because they had been able to do so in the past with no issue?

MotCO said:
The loan will only be for a couple of minutes just to retrieve the ticket

In my not-particularly-recent experience (recognising that this may have changed) phones that are completely dead can take a good few minutes of charge before they can be switched back on.

I have, however, often wondered whether one day we could have the ability to print a copy of an e-ticket at the station using some lookup details from the order, or the card used to pay, or something along those lines as a form of backup for someone travelling and realising they can't get their e-ticket on their device for whatever reason. Something along the lines of "if a flow has an e-ticket then it's always issued as one, but anyone can print a copy of their e-ticket at a station TVM for free"

LowLevel · 14 Mar 2024

Most of us do carry a cheap power bank. The company has given us several over the years.

It's amazing how many people decline the offer for whatever stupid reason, usually because they don't have a ticket in the first place. I don't particularly care for this attitude and it usually ends in a negative way for the traveller in question.

johntea · 14 Mar 2024

I was at Harrogate station recently who have installed a vending machine style power bank rental machine (I've forgot the company name), something like £3 for the first hour which is slightly more appealing than a £50/£100 penalty fare!

TUC · 14 Mar 2024

It would be interesting to know how many passengers this really is an issue for, outside of those seeking to cheat and evade payment, and rail enthusiasts with curiously poor phone batteries.

jamiearmley · 14 Mar 2024

TUC said:
It would be interesting to know how many passengers this really is an issue for, outside of those seeking to cheat and evade payment, and rail enthusiasts without curiously poor phone batteries.

I encounter maybe 1 a week, if that, who genuinely need to borrow my charger, who then, after charging, can genuinely show me a ticket. They normally offer to buy a new ticket as their opening statement, and I ask questions which lead me to lending them the charger for the duration of their journey, and in a few memorable cases letting them keep one of my chargers permanently. (I always save any cables I find abandoned on board to facilitate such).

As for those actually trying to commit fare evasion? At least 2 or 3 a day.....

For reference, I would estimate that I 'inspect' around 2750 tickets a week.

AM9 · 14 Mar 2024

freddie1729 said:
Providing a charger is the least they could do though. I don't think any charge should be made, what would the purpose be other than to extort someone already in a sticky situation?

The assertion that people who run out of battery are not taking responsibility for themselves is ridiculous frankly. Technology can be unpredictable and phones can run out of battery unexpectedly.

"Technology can be unpredictable", yes, but a battery running out just like that, no. Even the most thirsty phone will sit there on standby from charged a couple of days, and the charge state is easily checked. If a passenger chooses to load a ticket onto their phone, then it is their responsibility to ensure that there is sufficient charge to display the ticket at any point until the journey is finished. Would you buy a paper ticket and carry it in a pocket that has a large hole such that it can fall out?

lyesbkz said:
I'm not sure there is any way to present this idea to people as being passenger-friendly and not just another way to rip people off, even if it's done with good intentions. I can already imagine the headlines about passengers being charged £20 to charge their phone for two minutes.

Clickbait papers would love to present that as the poor innocent traveller, when really it's the stupid irresponsible passenger.

lyesbkz said:
If it's a chargeable service then would passengers be entitled to expect it after some time? If one day the member of staff doesn't have one on them or it's broken or out of charge, and the passenger would have been happy to pay the £20 but doesn't have the option to do so on that occasion, would it be reasonable for them to argue that they shouldn't be penalised because they had been able to do so in the past with no issue?

Well done for pointing out the reason why the railway shouldn't fall over itself by catering for the careless passenger. Next there will be people expecting compensation for the inspector not carrying a battery to charge their phone.

lyesbkz said:
In my not-particularly-recent experience (recognising that this may have changed) phones that are completely dead can take a good few minutes of charge before they can be switched back on.

Allowing a phone to go completely dead phone really is negligent.

Purple Train · 15 Mar 2024

I was thinking about this (from a revenue protection perspective) upon seeing a member of staff at my local station wave through a "yoof" who said his phone had died, at which point his merry men sauntered behind him through the disabled gate and away. Surely such a thing would deter fare evaders from using this tactic, but I did idly wonder how simple it would be when the evader could become aggressive when trapped behind the barrier (presumably the calculation the staff member in my example made) while the inspector charges their phone, and, of course, the potential that they could simply force/jump the barrier and flee. Either way, interesting to see that power banks are carried and used - thanks!

AlterEgo · 15 Mar 2024

In Italy on long distance services you don’t even need to show a ticket. Quoting the ticket reference number is enough.

Haywain · 15 Mar 2024

AlterEgo said:
In Italy on long distance services you don’t even need to show a ticket. Quoting the ticket reference number is enough.

I am sure that plenty of people would be incapable of doing that if their phone was dead.

AlterEgo · 15 Mar 2024

Haywain said:
I am sure that plenty of people would be incapable of doing that if their phone was dead.

You just write it down, or get it printed out for you at the station. And even then, if you have no code at all, you can just show some ID to the conductor and it’ll be fine, especially if you’re in your reserved seat.

If your phone dies very unexpectedly and you have no ID and the conductor doesn’t believe you when you tell them your name and you’re sitting in your reserved seat, sure, maybe you’ll get into trouble. But it’s a vastly superior and medium-agnostic way of ticketing passengers.

Deafdoggie · 15 Mar 2024

TUC said:
It would be interesting to know how many passengers this really is an issue for, outside of those seeking to cheat and evade payment, and rail enthusiasts without curiously poor phone batteries.

Ah, you mean my aunty's phone that only has a 5 minute battery life. She's blind, has no arms and therefore can't use a phone charger. It's just blatant discrimination to charge her £20 to charge her phone

Haywain · 15 Mar 2024

AlterEgo said:
you tell them your name and you’re sitting in your reserved seat

That's fine if you want a system where your ticket is restricted to a specific person using a specific seat on a specific train. But it's quite a lot different to how ticketing works here.

Wallsendmag · 15 Mar 2024

Why not just have a plug at every seat ?

Richardr · 15 Mar 2024

Wallsendmag said:
Why not just have a plug at every seat ?

People would need to carry a charger / lead, and one compatible with the sockets - whether three pin, USB-A or USB-C.

Wallsendmag · 15 Mar 2024

Richardr said:
People would need to carry a charger / lead, and one compatible with the sockets - whether three pin, USB-A or USB-C.

Oh so they'd need to be responsible , yes I see the problem.

lyndhurst25 · 15 Mar 2024

AM9 said:
"Technology can be unpredictable", yes, but a battery running out just like that, no. Even the most thirsty phone will sit there on standby from charged a couple of days, and the charge state is easily checked. If a passenger chooses to load a ticket onto their phone, then it is their responsibility to ensure that there is sufficient charge to display the ticket at any point until the journey is finished. Would you buy a paper ticket and carry it in a pocket that has a large hole such that it can fall out?

Mostly true, but old phone batteries can be very temperature dependant. The geriatric iPad Mini that I am writing this on works just fine in summer and in a heated room, but take it outdoors on a cold day and it will, regardless of the state of charge, just shut down and refuse to come back to life until it gets warmed up again. Coincidentally, the first time I noticed the problem was when trying to use it to check train times at a station, but luckily I was using paper, rather than e-tickets.

158801 · 15 Mar 2024

So what happens if I borrow your power bank and charging lead and it snaps off in my phone - damaging it?

Who's going to pay for a repair or new phone?

In today's risk averse society - I wouldn't risk using my own power bank/charging cable unless it had been approved by my employer

AM9 · 15 Mar 2024

lyndhurst25 said:
Mostly true, but old phone batteries can be very temperature dependant. The geriatric iPad Mini that I am writing this on works just fine in summer and in a heated room, but take it outdoors on a cold day and it will, regardless of the state of charge, just shut down and refuse to come back to life until it gets warmed up again. Coincidentally, the first time I noticed the problem was when trying to use it to check train times at a station, but luckily I was using paper, rather than e-tickets.

If a phone that is that old and unreliable is being relied on for your compliance of the contract you enter into when travelling, it is at your own risk. It's not a life and death issue, - nobody willl die, but when paper tickets are always available (as I'm assured by some here), those knowingly using a device that may cause them to be in breach of the regulations must face up to the consequences. A side benefit of (nearly) all resulting from responsible use of electronic ticketing will be the rapid disappearance of chancers that don't actually have a ticket on their device. Employees can probably recognise many of them by their behaviour, but all this pleading for the railway to provide for the carelessness of a few provides a path for the criminally minded to follow.

RT4038 · 15 Mar 2024

AlterEgo said:
In Italy on long distance services you don’t even need to show a ticket. Quoting the ticket reference number is enough.

Yes, but all their long distance tickets are booked train only. Apples with apples please!

edwin_m · 15 Mar 2024

lyesbkz said:
I have, however, often wondered whether one day we could have the ability to print a copy of an e-ticket at the station using some lookup details from the order, or the card used to pay, or something along those lines as a form of backup for someone travelling and realising they can't get their e-ticket on their device for whatever reason. Something along the lines of "if a flow has an e-ticket then it's always issued as one, but anyone can print a copy of their e-ticket at a station TVM for free"

Anyone who can connect to a printer can do that at home of course. There might be scope to add this as an extra function to a TVM, but I think I'd charge £1 or so to discourage people from using it if they have an alternative. However, the question remains, how do you know your ticket details if your phone has died?

Class800 · 15 Mar 2024

While we live in a culture that is so keen to punish people, I personally will always print out my e-ticket, put it in a folder in my bag; probably print another copy and put it in my wallet; as well as having electronic copies saved in at least one place on my phone

LowLevel · 15 Mar 2024

158801 said:
So what happens if I borrow your power bank and charging lead and it snaps off in my phone - damaging it?

Who's going to pay for a repair or new phone?

In today's risk averse society - I wouldn't risk using my own power bank/charging cable unless it had been approved by my employer

That's your choice, but if you've chosen to depend upon that device and it has died and that is indeed the choice you make it may cost you personally and not your employer a criminal conviction and several hundred quid in fines.

You'd perhaps hope the TOC wouldn't do that if you can provide proof after the event that you had a valid ticket purchased before boarding but you can never quite be sure.

Skiddaw · 15 Mar 2024

As I mentioned once before, it nearly happened to me on a journey from Penrith to Euston. My previous phone had started to run out of charge rather quickly (I upgraded soon afterwards) but as I was intending to travel in standard premium (AWT) I wasn't concerned on the basis I could put the phone on charge when on the train. Unfortunately, the power sockets weren't working (I forget now what the problem was). I was watching the battery bar run down and praying my ticket would be checked before it passed the point of no return (thankfully it was- just). Since then I generally print out a hard copy of my ticket (or opt for the 'collect at station' old fashioned ticket) especially on a long journey.

jon0844 · 15 Mar 2024

lyndhurst25 said:
Mostly true, but old phone batteries can be very temperature dependant. The geriatric iPad Mini that I am writing this on works just fine in summer and in a heated room, but take it outdoors on a cold day and it will, regardless of the state of charge, just shut down and refuse to come back to life until it gets warmed up again. Coincidentally, the first time I noticed the problem was when trying to use it to check train times at a station, but luckily I was using paper, rather than e-tickets.

I have an old phone that I use from time to time to watch media (big screen, no notch, loud speakers, case has a nice integrated stand), and the battery can drain in less than an hour doing nothing. You can literally sit and watch it count down, and what's more - it sometimes drains even when switched off between use.

I suspect it's a battery management issue as well as the battery itself, and the battery isn't actually draining - especially when off. On occasion I've inserted a charger and it's gone from 60-70% to 1% - but then sits at 1% for far longer than it should. Something is very clearly wrong and I suppose if I was mad enough to use it out, it would let me down as you could not predict the battery meter one bit.

Suffice to say, I don't take it out - and if anyone else had a phone performing like this, it would surely be essential that they got it repaired or changed device - not expecting leniency.

AlterEgo · 15 Mar 2024

Haywain said:
That's fine if you want a system where your ticket is restricted to a specific person using a specific seat on a specific train. But it's quite a lot different to how ticketing works here.

…by choice.

Passengers actually do expect the railway to have workarounds in place and they are often surprised when a booking reference and proof they’re on the right train isn’t sufficient. It’s not intuitive to long distance passengers who increasingly view, and expect, the intercity railway to function more like an airline.

RT4038 said:
Yes, but all their long distance tickets are booked train only. Apples with apples please!

Ours should be too, certainly on long distance intercity services. Loads of customers already think this is the case anyway; that your ticket is valid only on the train you selected. Ticketing doesn’t actually match customer expectations; it hasn’t for a very long time.

Bletchleyite · 15 Mar 2024

edwin_m said:
Anyone who can connect to a printer can do that at home of course. There might be scope to add this as an extra function to a TVM, but I think I'd charge £1 or so to discourage people from using it if they have an alternative. However, the question remains, how do you know your ticket details if your phone has died?

Date of travel, postcode of purchaser (I did say name but you could easily go round putting in Smith or Jones or similar and finding stuff), origin and destination should be a suitably complex set of search terms to be able to retrieve a ticket without any real risk of someone else getting it by guessing. If those exact search terms don't work others should be a possibility.

This fits with the view I have that all railway purchases should be modifiable and retrievable via all sales channels.

Adam Williams · 15 Mar 2024

Wallsendmag said:
Why not just have a plug at every seat ?

This would be a good first step, but I've been on a Pendo (in SP*) and more than a few 168s where they were completely dead.. They need to be present and actually maintained properly.

* Despite pushing for a solution to be offered, the Avanti TM wouldn't take the initiative and offer the (fairly obvious to me) resolution of sitting in the empty seats in first class [where the power worked] w/o catering.

Wireless charging would be a good step, too - just in my limited experience, this is often even less reliable than a simple three-pin socket. I'm not sure if it's a problem with the tech or the implementation of it.

E-Tickets on dead phones - a possible solution?

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