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E-Tickets on dead phones - a possible solution?

Bletchleyite

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Ours should be too, certainly on long distance intercity services. Loads of customers already think this is the case anyway; that your ticket is valid only on the train you selected. Ticketing doesn’t actually match customer expectations; it hasn’t for a very long time.

It should probably be noted that the main objections to the LNER trial are that it is a trial of increasing fares significantly, not the structural aspects of it (though some of course don't like those I can see the sense in them).
 
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Skiddaw

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This would be a good first step, but I've been on a Pendo (in SP*) and more than a few 168s where they were completely dead.. They need to be present and actually maintained properly.

* Despite pushing for a solution to be offered, the Avanti TM wouldn't take the initiative and offer the (fairly obvious to me) resolution of sitting in the empty seats in first class [where the power worked] w/o catering.

Wireless charging would be a good step, too - just in my limited experience, this is often even less reliable than a simple three-pin socket. I'm not sure if it's a problem with the tech or the implementation of it.
Snap! (See my earlier post above).
 

AM9

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This would be a good first step, but I've been on a Pendo (in SP*) and more than a few 168s where they were completely dead.. They need to be present and actually maintained properly.

* Despite pushing for a solution to be offered, the Avanti TM wouldn't take the initiative and offer the (fairly obvious to me) resolution of sitting in the empty seats in first class [where the power worked] w/o catering.

Wireless charging would be a good step, too - just in my limited experience, this is often even less reliable than a simple three-pin socket. I'm not sure if it's a problem with the tech or the implementation of it.
The more the railway provides 'convenience' facilities, the more some will become so dependent on them that to some, their failure to show a valid ticket becomes the railway's fault because the sockets weren't working. (Also, something that unscrupulous travellers will seek to use instead of paying for a ticket in the first place.) Then there will be the stream of compensation claims for lack of access to other stored tickets, and of course the trauma from their embarrassment at having to explain why they couldn't show a valid ticket in front of all those other passengers. :rolleyes:
 

AlterEgo

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It should probably be noted that the main objections to the LNER trial are that it is a trial of increasing fares significantly, not the structural aspects of it (though some of course don't like those I can see the sense in them).
The LNER trial hasn't actually made the fares that much simpler though, with the advent of nonsensical 70min flex tickets. In any case I'm talking about revealed preferences, which are very different to what people moan about for likes on Twitter.

Most passengers actually do not care about the price that much, but they will care when they find you can still use a huge number of off peak return tickets on LNER that happen to be priced by different TOCs on different flows, and that you have to be a clever clogs or an enthusiast to know that. This *does* feel like a ripoff to people; they feel penalised and that the system is there to actively catch them out.
 

Class800

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The more the railway provides 'convenience' facilities, the more some will become so dependent on them that to some, their failure to show a valid ticket becomes the railway's fault because the sockets weren't working. (Also, something that unscrupulous travellers will seek to use instead of paying for a ticket in the first place.) Then there will be the stream of compensation claims for lack of access to other stored tickets, and of course the trauma from their embarrassment at having to explain why they couldn't show a valid ticket in front of all those other passengers. :rolleyes:
I would rather a non functioning plug socket on the train be seen like a non functioning TVM, the equivalent for the e ticket generation - but we're a long way from that. Hence, I always bring print outs
 

Adam Williams

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The reason for them not working is frequently due the circuits being tripped through people using dodgy electrical equipment.
I'd heard that, but the TM did state he'd tried to reset the fuses. Not sure what the root cause actually ended up being.

It's a bit annoying that it's not very granular, you'd hope it'd be possible to have a breaker for each group of sockets rather than the entire carriage suddenly becoming useless, but I suppose space is at a premium.
 

Bletchleyite

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Most passengers actually do not care about the price that much, but they will care when they find you can still use a huge number of off peak return tickets on LNER that happen to be priced by different TOCs on different flows, and that you have to be a clever clogs or an enthusiast to know that. This *does* feel like a ripoff to people; they feel penalised and that the system is there to actively catch them out.

The other thing (bringing it back on topic) is that people expect long distance travel tickets to be named, i.e. specific to an individual. If they are, then simply showing ID, which most people have in some form, can allow a means of retrieving the ticket and proving it's yours. Or like a season ticket you could even send in proof of the ticket retrospectively for a PF to be cancelled.

Indeed, before printing your boarding pass was a thing, you used to check in for an easyJet or Ryanair flight by simply stating where you were flying to and proving your name using your passport - that was enough to find the booking.
 
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Deafdoggie

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The refitted 390s have all had working wireless charging when I've been on them.
 

edwin_m

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Date of travel, postcode of purchaser (I did say name but you could easily go round putting in Smith or Jones or similar and finding stuff), origin and destination should be a suitably complex set of search terms to be able to retrieve a ticket without any real risk of someone else getting it by guessing. If those exact search terms don't work others should be a possibility.

This fits with the view I have that all railway purchases should be modifiable and retrievable via all sales channels.
However, if you found out an acquaintance was making a particular journey and you knew their home address then it would be easy enough to "steal" their ticket. It would need to be backed up by something like having to insert any credit card, which would allow the person to be traced if it turned out to be fraudulent (unless they'd stolen that too).

Presumably the fact airlines and TOD use booking references and airlines also require photo ID means that simply presenting personal details isn't considered good enough.
 

Haywain

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Presumably the fact airlines and TOD use booking references and airlines also require photo ID means that simply presenting personal details isn't considered good enough.
Airlines are really not a suitable comparison because there are different security requirements and strict capacity constraints.
 

Bletchleyite

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However, if you found out an acquaintance was making a particular journey and you knew their home address then it would be easy enough to "steal" their ticket. It would need to be backed up by something like having to insert any credit card, which would allow the person to be traced if it turned out to be fraudulent (unless they'd stolen that too).

This is extremely niche. It needs to be secure enough, not perfect.

It's arguments like this where my suggestion for an e-ticket system remarkably similar to the one that actually happened a few years back was comprehensively rubbished on here.
 

edwin_m

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This is extremely niche. It needs to be secure enough, not perfect.

It's arguments like this where my suggestion for an e-ticket system remarkably similar to the one that actually happened a few years back was comprehensively rubbished on here.
If there's a niche and someone can exploit it to their own advantage, then they probably will.

Airlines are really not a suitable comparison because there are different security requirements and strict capacity constraints.
Maybe so for airlines, but not for TOD. If security requires a booking reference and some ID in the form of a credit card, then the same ought to apply to any process of printing e-tickets.

Also, it only helps if the person's phone has already died when they get to the start station, or they can foresee that it might not last the journey. In the latter case, why didn't they print the ticket before leaving home or, er, just charge the phone?
 

Deafdoggie

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Surely just a system where you give the ticket inspector your name and postcode and they bring up your ticket details on their device and mark it as scanned.
 

methecooldude

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There is wireless charging on SWR 444s in first class. I can't say if it works because I don't have a compatible phone.
You can take it from me... they are... picky if they want to work, sometimes they do, sometimes they don't, and the Guard cannot do anything about them
 

TUC

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People would need to carry a charger / lead, and one compatible with the sockets - whether three pin, USB-A or USB-C.
You mean like I do, and I see many other people doing, when travelling to/from work?
 

AlterEgo

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If there's a niche and someone can exploit it to their own advantage, then they probably will.
It's such a niche way of defrauding someone that it's not even worth considering.

Paper tickets have myriad ways of being subject to fraud - they are by far the least secure ticketing medium - that people in here would invent as barriers to their introduction if they were a new method of fulfilment.
 

Watershed

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Indeed, before printing your boarding pass was a thing, you used to check in for an easyJet or Ryanair flight by simply stating where you were flying to and proving your name using your passport - that was enough to find the booking.
And that's still possible with most 'legacy' airlines.

The refitted 390s have all had working wireless charging when I've been on them.
Although you have to position your phone in exactly the right spot to get it to work. If the tilt causes your phone to slide off that spot, it stops charging! It's also very slow - typically charging at around 500mA, which will take forever and day to get you fully charged. I much prefer to use my own 30W USB-C charger.
 

TUC

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One can tell by the amount of pings that can be heard when a conductor walks down a train that few passengers seem to have the problems with their phones that some here curiously claim to have.
 

jon0844

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Although you have to position your phone in exactly the right spot to get it to work. If the tilt causes your phone to slide off that spot, it stops charging! It's also very slow - typically charging at around 500mA, which will take forever and day to get you fully charged. I much prefer to use my own 30W USB-C charger.

There is a newer Qi charging standard now, but I doubt these would be upgraded. They're still pretty slow. You can get proprietary wireless chargers (I have a 100W one at home, but it also has a fan in it!) but they won't be appearing on trains anytime soon!
 

Skiddaw

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Thing is, I can see it getting to a stage where paper tickets just aren't available any longer. It's increasingly difficult to manage normal life without a smart phone and I think that will increasingly be the case.
 

jthjth

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As far as I know there are no plans to do away with paper tickets. There are plans however to get rid of orange 70s tech pieces of orange cardboard
I rather like Scotrail’s system. You can buy a ticket on the app and then transfer it to their ITSO Smartcard (and various other Scottish smart cards) using the phone’s NFC facility. Then you have the ticket on something that can’t go flat. You can use the app to read back the card’s contents as well. I used this when I was last in Glasgow. Didn’t have access to a printer as a backup.I made a second trip where I pressed the wrong button on the app and was forced to pick the ticket up at a machine. That involved quite a wait in the queue. Unfortunately doesn’t work on all flows and the system seems to be isolated to Scotland.
 

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