HS2 captive trains (and special gauge trains generally): diversionary routes & emergency measures?

BogiePicker · 16 Mar 2024

HS2 infrastructure was to be built to UIC GC gauge. However, I'm not aware of any plans to upgrade existing routes for possible diverts if needed.

I can think of two examples in Japan - the Shinkansen & the Maglev. It appears none of them have diversionary routes as such (no way the Maglev could) but seems they are a bit slacker than HS2, 10-13 tph OTOH. And of course they have Japanese reliability.

However, HS2 was also to run classic compatibles which can use the normal network to complete journeys if needed; this is not really the case in Japan with the wide-body Shinkansen. I presume it would therefore have been the rolling stock rather than the infrastructure that would have provided the 'slack', but I haven't been able to find anything official on this. Thanks.

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CarrotPie · 16 Mar 2024

BogiePicker said:
I can think of two examples in Japan - the Shinkansen & the Maglev. It appears none of them have diversionary routes as such (no way the Maglev could) but seems they are a bit slacker than HS2, 10-13 tph OTOH. And of course they have Japanese reliability.

The Tōkaidō Shinkansen (the OG one) runs at 17tph, very close to HS2's 18tph. Both have a theoretical capacity of 24tph, but the Shinkansen has 1323 seats per 16-car train...

plugwash · 16 Mar 2024

For the most part in the UK if a line is closed, either rail replacement busses are provides, passengers are told to use other trains or passengers are discouraged from travelling. Long distance diversions are very much the exception not the rule due to capacity and route knowledge issues.

I suspect that the HS2 "classic compatible" trains would be more than enough to fill up any spare paths they could find on the classic infrastructure.

For example if the WCML into Euston is closed, they will try to divert as many passengers as possible onto the ECML (afaict they try and avoid diverting passengers onto the MML due to capacity issues there)

zwk500 · 16 Mar 2024

BogiePicker said:
HS2 infrastructure was to be built to UIC GC gauge. However, I'm not aware of any plans to upgrade existing routes for possible diverts if needed.

There is no plan to enhance any part of the UK classic network to GC as far as I am aware. In fact, to the best of my knowledge there is only 1 location where any UIC gauge is cleared on the UK classic network - Ripple Lane Yard.

BogiePicker said:
I can think of two examples in Japan - the Shinkansen & the Maglev. It appears none of them have diversionary routes as such (no way the Maglev could) but seems they are a bit slacker than HS2, 10-13 tph OTOH. And of course they have Japanese reliability.

Doesn't Japan have different track gauges for the Shinkansen and it's classic network? I think there is a variable-gauge Shinkansen but it's a special case.

BogiePicker said:
However, HS2 was also to run classic compatibles which can use the normal network to complete journeys if needed; this is not really the case in Japan with the wide-body Shinkansen. I presume it would therefore have been the rolling stock rather than the infrastructure that would have provided the 'slack', but I haven't been able to find anything official on this. Thanks.

'Slack' for what, sorry? HS2 will run classic-compatible services to destinations not directly on the HS2 network, but there will not be sufficient links between HS2 and the classic networks to enable trains to divert around in the event HS2 gets blocked by an incident. Running HS2 classic-compatible stock into Euston Classic side will be theoretically possible, but the trains would have to run as 200m only, not 400m, due to the platform lengths on the classic side of Euston (unless the recent events have changed all the designs).

LNW-GW Joint · 16 Mar 2024

BogiePicker said:
However, HS2 was also to run classic compatibles which can use the normal network to complete journeys if needed

HS2 will only have classic-compatible stock, as all its trains will run on the WCML as well as HS2 - no sets will be "captive".
So any diversions will be on the classic network north of Handsacre (and not many of those).
The only link HS2 will have to the outside world is at Hansacre.
HS2 will have bi-directional signalling so its diversion option is on to the adjacent line.
The new HS2 plans post Phase 2b cancellation are for 9tph, with a smaller station at Euston (at least) than for the original 18tph scope.

The Planner · 16 Mar 2024

plugwash said:
For example if the WCML into Euston is closed, they will try to divert as many passengers as possible onto the ECML (afaict they try and avoid diverting passengers onto the MML due to capacity issues there)

Depends where you are coming from, south of Preston then the normal plan is buses across to Bedford and on to the MML. With Chiltern and XC picking up some of the slack on their routes.

eldomtom2 · 16 Mar 2024

zwk500 said:
Doesn't Japan have different track gauges for the Shinkansen and it's classic network? I think there is a variable-gauge Shinkansen but it's a special case.

There is no variable-gauge Shinkansen. There are the mini-Shinkansen, which are built to conventional loading gauge and run onto conventional lines regauged to standard gauge.

Irascible · 16 Mar 2024

I also don't think they're particularily more reliable than any other modern high intensity network, are they? they have some nasty penalties for crew error I don't think Europeans would put up with, but even then there's still a lot of old network that has the same failures everywhere else has.

And yes, if there's a problem with the Shinkansen ( earthquake warning etc ) that's it - rail replacement airliner or something

BogiePicker · 16 Mar 2024

Irascible said:
I also don't think they're particularily more reliable than any other modern high intensity network, are they? they have some nasty penalties for crew error I don't think Europeans would put up with, but even then there's still a lot of old network that has the same failures everywhere else has.

And yes, if there's a problem with the Shinkansen ( earthquake warning etc ) that's it - rail replacement airliner or something

Thanks for all the responses. Guess this makes it clear: once you have your self-segregated bespoke/standalone network, that is basically it! You just have to find out how to deal with it and ensure maximum reliability.

Though with today's opening of the Hokuriku extension to Tsuruga, looks like there will be a bit of extra redundancy for Tokyo - Kyoto & Osaka eventually. It is interesting that Japan is still bit by bit adding to their network, away from the Tokaido headliner.

LYuen · 16 Mar 2024

eldomtom2 said:
There is no variable-gauge Shinkansen. There are the mini-Shinkansen, which are built to conventional loading gauge and run onto conventional lines regauged to standard gauge.

One thing to add - Japan regauged the track from narrow gauge (1067mm) to standard gauge (1435mm), but kept the original loading gauge.
There are two mini-Shinkansen lines, each being about 150km long. Each line was closed for around 5 years for the construction.

norbitonflyer · 17 Mar 2024

LNW-GW Joint said:
HS2 will only have classic-compatible stock, as all its trains will run on the WCML as well as HS2 - no sets will be "captive".

Euston/OOC to Curzon Street will not use any part of the WCML. If those tgrains are not built to the larger loading gauge, what will be the point of building the line to that gauge?

There is nothing new about rolling stock being captive to a particular route - as was discovered recently when HS1 was blocked in Kent and Eurostar had to suspend operations. The Class 332s on the Heathrow Express route are another example, vecause of the unique signalling system.
And of course any electric train is captive to the electrified network - you can't divert a Pendolino over the Settle & Carlisle, or a Lumo via the Durham Coast.

JonathanH · 17 Mar 2024

norbitonflyer said:
Euston/OOC to Curzon Street will not use any part of the WCML. If those tgrains are not built to the larger loading gauge, what will be the point of building the line to that gauge?

The line was built to that gauge when it was envisaged that the full Y would eventually be built. With the full Y designing captive rolling stock would make sense. With just OOC to Curzon Street as the sole captive route, possibly ever, the rolling stock requirement is somewhat limited, and there is no point in designing a separate fleet for a build of about 10 trains.

LNW-GW Joint · 17 Mar 2024

norbitonflyer said:
Euston/OOC to Curzon Street will not use any part of the WCML. If those trains are not built to the larger loading gauge, what will be the point of building the line to that gauge?

The HS2 fleet was ordered and will be built to classic-compatible gauge.
The assumption was that with subsequent orders for Phase 2, with captive trains to Manchester and Leeds as well as Birmingham, some GC-gauge stock would be acquired for those routes.
But Phase 2 is now fantasy, and HS2 will have to stick with the fleet it has ordered.
With 3tph to Birmingham, and 6tph onto the WCML, there is no case for a few GC-gauge sets dedicated to Birmingham services.
The unit cost for such trains, with a new design needed, would be prohibitive.

Snow1964 · 17 Mar 2024

norbitonflyer said:
Euston/OOC to Curzon Street will not use any part of the WCML. If those tgrains are not built to the larger loading gauge, what will be the point of building the line to that gauge?

As originally envisaged would have been 2 batches of trains, an initial batch built to standard UK gauge, then second batch about 10 years later built to larger gauge (and possibly double deck) when line to Manchester was finished.

So could have high capacity trains on core, and the original fleet could be used for services that extended to other parts of the country.

It should also be pointed out at the time of planning, it was expected a link HS1-HS2 would be included and presumed that at some stage border control would be streamlined (or we join Schengen) so trains from Birmingham and Manchester could run to Europe (and be served by trains from other countries) calling at either (or both) Old Oak and Stratford instead of Euston. It was making it futureproof for services from 2040s through to 22nd century, not current UK ignores Europe post Brexit short term thinking.

norbitonflyer · 17 Mar 2024

So building HS2 to GC gauge will now be a waste of money unless phase 2 (or the Burnham/Street alternative) gets built

zwk500 · 17 Mar 2024

norbitonflyer said:
So building HS2 to GC gauge will now be a waste of money unless phase 2 (or the Burnham/Street alternative) gets built

The extra cost of GC gauge is pretty minimal.

Krokodil · 17 Mar 2024

norbitonflyer said:
So building HS2 to GC gauge will now be a waste of money unless phase 2 (or the Burnham/Street alternative) gets built

Call it "futureproofing". Gauge enhancement of an existing line is expensive, gauge enhancement of a brand new line costs hardly anything.

paul1609 · 18 Mar 2024

Will HS2 be fixed height OHLE like HS1 or classic BR?

LNW-GW Joint · 18 Mar 2024

paul1609 said:
Will HS2 be fixed height OHLE like HS1 or classic BR?

It will be SNCF high speed (V360 OCS licensed by HS2 Ltd).

SNCF catenary design adopted as HS2 begins electrification procurement

UK: HS2 Ltd has launched the process to procure overhead line equipment for the high speed railway now under construction between London and the West Midlands. The project delivery company announced on July 2 that it was seeking to award two railway systems contracts in a single ...

www.railwaygazette.com

The catenary will use a design licensed from French infrastructure manager SNCF Réseau, whose V360 OCS is the only OLE design certified under European Technical Specifications for Interoperability for 360 km/h operation. The design is an evolution of the V350 OCS which has been installed on recent extensions of the French high speed network, including LGV Sud Europe Atlantique between Tours and Bordeaux. SNCF Réseau and HS2 Ltd completed certification of the V360 variant in May 2018.

martin2345uk · 18 Mar 2024

Does this mean HS2 trains will have to perform voltage changeovers on the move as Eurostars do?

Snow1964 · 18 Mar 2024

martin2345uk said:
Does this mean HS2 trains will have to perform voltage changeovers on the move as Eurostars do?

The UK just uses 25kv ac overhead. (except Metro systems)
Channel Tunnel and French High speed lines are all 25kv ac too
Denmark, Hungary, and Croatia are 25kv

Belgium and Spain use 3kv dc (25kv on high speed)
Italy uses 3kv dc, and parts of Slovenia

Netherlands and parts of France are 1.5kv dc

Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Sweden and Norway use 15kv at 16.67hz low frequency

LNW-GW Joint · 18 Mar 2024

martin2345uk said:
Does this mean HS2 trains will have to perform voltage changeovers on the move as Eurostars do?

Not voltage changeovers (all 25kV AC), but they will have to change signalling/train control systems and maybe pantograph type at Handsacre to/from the WCML system.
HS2 will be ETCS cab signalling, WCML is lineside signals and TPWS (with maybe some ETCS further north by then).
There will have to be an overlap for this, presumably at a reduced speed on what was intended to be the link from the Phase 1/2 junction to Handsacre WCML.

Krokodil · 18 Mar 2024

How did 373s change between UK and European height catenary? Obviously they didn't have the opportunity to do it on the move as NoL never happened in service but they operated on each of the two systems independently. Is it simply a matter of steadily transitioning the wire height with no input from the unit or does the train need to know how high it's trying to reach?

LNW-GW Joint · 18 Mar 2024

The Channel Tunnel has very high catenary for the double-deck shuttle stock, so Eurostars have extra long pantographs for that section.
I believe they swap pantographs at each end of he tunnel.
In other respects the tunnel systems are the same as on SNCF's high speed lines.
I imagine the changeover at Handsacre onto HS2 will be similar to that when Eurostar emerges from the tunnel onto high-speed infrastructure.

martin2345uk · 18 Mar 2024

LNW-GW Joint said:
Not voltage changeovers (all 25kV AC), but they will have to change signalling/train control systems and maybe pantograph type at Handsacre to/from the WCML system.
HS2 will be ETCS cab signalling, WCML is lineside signals and TPWS (with maybe some ETCS further north by then).
There will have to be an overlap for this, presumably at a reduced speed on what was intended to be the link from the Phase 1/2 junction to Handsacre WCML.

Yeah sorry I was using the term voltage changeover because that what Eurostar calls it, even though the voltage is the same.

Krokodil said:
How did 373s change between UK and European height catenary? Obviously they didn't have the opportunity to do it on the move as NoL never happened in service but they operated on each of the two systems independently. Is it simply a matter of steadily transitioning the wire height with no input from the unit or does the train need to know how high it's trying to reach?

They put the pantographs down on the move and the driver just chooses the new setting and then raises them again.

paul1609 · 18 Mar 2024

Krokodil said:
How did 373s change between UK and European height catenary? Obviously they didn't have the opportunity to do it on the move as NoL never happened in service but they operated on each of the two systems independently. Is it simply a matter of steadily transitioning the wire height with no input from the unit or does the train need to know how high it's trying to reach?

373s were never designed to change from BR OHL to TGV OHL as they predated HS1 and the NOL sevices would have changed from third rail DC to BR OHL north of Kensington Olympia on the West London Line. It was a rotary switch in the cab of a 373 which had different positions for all the systems/ voltages the train could use.

Krokodil · 18 Mar 2024

paul1609 said:
373s were never designed to change from BR OHL to TGV OHL as they predated HS1 and the NOL sevices would have changed from third rail DC to BR OHL north of Kensington Olympia on the West London Line. It was a rotary switch in the cab of a 373 which had different positions for all the systems/ voltages the train could use.

But presumably they could do both individually. Was BR OHL a seperate setting from LGV OHL?

paul1609 · 18 Mar 2024

Krokodil said:
But presumably they could do both individually. Was BR OHL a seperate setting from LGV OHL?

Yes the LGV/HS1 OHL is a fixed height system which makes for better collection at high speed. The BR system the height varies to get around structures etc which isnt a problem at lower speeds. The Channel tunnel is a fixed height system but higher than HS1. In theory you need a different pantograph for each system to optimise collection but you can compromise with an adjustable system

LNW-GW Joint · 18 Mar 2024

Krokodil said:
But presumably they could do both individually. Was BR OHL a seperate setting from LGV OHL?

HS1 OHL is the same as the French LGV system, so you'd expect the same pantograph setting to be used.
WCML OHL has had 60 years of evolution, the last for WCRM.
The fast lines, at least those over 110mph, are I believe fixed height, and optimised for 125mph tilting Pendolinos.
But there's a lot of the WCML, particularly the slow lines and on the various WCML loops, which is still probably in its original 1960s/70s state.

Waterlemon · 18 Mar 2024

CarrotPie said:
The Tōkaidō Shinkansen (the OG one) runs at 17tph, very close to HS2's 18tph. Both have a theoretical capacity of 24tph, but the Shinkansen has 1323 seats per 16-car train...

HS2 doesnt have a theoretical capacity of 24tph.
Yes the plain line on the core section could support it but the constraints at Euston, even with 11 platforms, mean you could never run 24tph

HS2 captive trains (and special gauge trains generally): diversionary routes & emergency measures?

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