Cars like this will have awful depreciation.
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Do you think that the UK switching to electric vehicles is realistic?
- Thread starter MattA7
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Is that a Series 1 Niro? Is it something that has been improved in the later models, or with software updates?
Its worth checking the videos of the NCAP crash tests on Youtube to get a feel for the performance in a crash. Crumple zones are designed to crumple, but you don't want to see intrusions into the passenger compartment.
No, it's the new Niro EV. The LKA/LDWS is rubbish and way too intrusive. Works well on the motorway (albeit still a tad hyperactive) but is a definite hazard on typical British country roads.
Indeed. That Fiat 500 was smashed to smithereens from the front bumper to the windscreen. Engine dropped nearly onto the road (as it's meant to, in days gone by it would have been pushed onto my lap). The windscreen was cracked from where something impacted from the inside. Other than that it was pristine.
The doors opened and shut properly. There were no creases in the roof or any panels. Aside from the cracked windscreen and deployed airbags, the interior was still perfect.
Remarkable.
It does not seem to be about gizmos, based on the NCAP summary the testing highlighted a high risk of life-threatening injuries for driver chest and rear passenger head in frontal crash tests and marginal chest protection in side impact. The Dacia Spring simply has a poor design for the cabin structure which does not protect occupants to the high standards for which Renault is known
Quite. But at least the most you can lose is £15k
(The slowest depreciating electric car is the aforementioned Porsche Taycan which loses 37% over 3 years or £30k+)
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High depreciation is bad for the original owner, but surely the second and subsequent owners benefit, and this must then be good for the whole electric car sector as one of the main arguments against electric cars is the purchase price.
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Though if you're leasing as previous posters have suggested is the usual method, the leasing company will take that into account when setting the payments level. If people are put off new electrics, there won't be second-hand ones down the line.Quite. But at least the most you can lose is £15k
(The slowest depreciating electric car is the aforementioned Porsche Taycan which loses 37% over 3 years or £30k+)
Edit:
High depreciation is bad for the original owner, but surely the second and subsequent owners benefit, and this must then be good for the whole electric car sector as one of the main arguments against electric cars is the purchase price.
Quite. But at least the most you can lose is £15k
(The slowest depreciating electric car is the aforementioned Porsche Taycan which loses 37% over 3 years or £30k+)
Edit:
High depreciation is bad for the original owner, but surely the second and subsequent owners benefit, and this must then be good for the whole electric car sector as one of the main arguments against electric cars is the purchase price.
Yes, I don't get the depreciation concern on a car that will be a bargain second hand - and cost so much less in the first place even for those that buy new (I've only ever bought one car brand new in my life, everything else has been ex-demo or a year or two old max and the savings have been tremendous). The percentage isn't quite as important as the actual amount.
Right now, you can get some amazing deals on a first-gen MG4 for example. But there are people who choose to buy new, and there will be some who will buy the car and run it into the ground so don't care about the resale value. They'll look at the total cost of ownership, and I suspect the Spring will be very cheap - especially as at £15k there may well be some buyers who won't need to finance any, or a lot, of that.
I have no idea how it will be priced here, but I am pretty sure this was/is offered in places like France for around £95 per month.
I know people paying £75 a month to have an iPhone on an unlimited data plan (albeit with various Apple services included).
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Possibly true, but then if it's going to be spending most of its time bimbling round town at 20/30mph then "safer than a pushbike" is perfectly adequate. This is a runaround, not a car to take on long motorway runs.
birchesgreen
Established Member
Possibly true but some cars NCAPs are due to not having certain tech (of dubious utility). I don't know about the Spring, to be honest it isn't something i generally bother about when looking into cars.
70F
Member
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- 12 Jan 2011
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I’m not in a position to be driving an electric vehicle (rented property, parking area separate from house), but have noticed the huge depreciation of smaller electric cars; recently seen adverts for Peugeot e-2008s on 73 plates for half their original list prices and a year old Vauxhall Mokka-e for half price too.Quite. But at least the most you can lose is £15k
(The slowest depreciating electric car is the aforementioned Porsche Taycan which loses 37% over 3 years or £30k+)
Edit:
High depreciation is bad for the original owner, but surely the second and subsequent owners benefit, and this must then be good for the whole electric car sector as one of the main arguments against electric cars is the purchase price.
There have been many EVs that were/are very overpriced - especially as batteries are constantly getting cheaper.
The market will eventually sort itself out, as it did with ICE cars after they were in some cases selling second hand for the same price people paid for them.
The market will eventually sort itself out, as it did with ICE cars after they were in some cases selling second hand for the same price people paid for them.
HSTEd
Veteran Member
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I seem to recall an article about the head of NCAP complaining that manufacturers were developing systems that technically comply with their requirements for five star ratings but are not really very useful in real life.
Can't see how they didn't forsee that that would happen, they just expected manufactuers to take the lower ratings for some reason.
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Here we go
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It's absolutely time then to separate the ratings so people can properly compare cars.
In a city, you probably aren't going to need loads of technology aids like LKA or adaptive cruise, but might be concerned about being hit by a speeding car shooting out of a junction.
If doing higher speeds, you will care about both active and passive safety systems.
I bet if we see cars with touchscreens getting down rated to 2 stars (such as the new Volvo EX30), the affected car makers will want to do this pretty quick.
In a city, you probably aren't going to need loads of technology aids like LKA or adaptive cruise, but might be concerned about being hit by a speeding car shooting out of a junction.
If doing higher speeds, you will care about both active and passive safety systems.
I bet if we see cars with touchscreens getting down rated to 2 stars (such as the new Volvo EX30), the affected car makers will want to do this pretty quick.
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
LKA systems are generally very poorly implemented, the system on my mum's Renault Captur throws a wobbly if you attempt to give a cyclist the space required by the Highway Code.
Similarly the "Full Self-Driving" systems that have been "about five years away" for fifteen years, will NEVER reach market saturation, and you can hold me to that. Whilst most accidents are caused at least in part by human error, the types of errors that humans make are the sorts of errors that other humans who are paying attention will see coming. No matter how many cameras and how much processing power you stick in an "autonomous driving" system, it will never be able to interpret the many context clues that humans can.
Similarly the "Full Self-Driving" systems that have been "about five years away" for fifteen years, will NEVER reach market saturation, and you can hold me to that. Whilst most accidents are caused at least in part by human error, the types of errors that humans make are the sorts of errors that other humans who are paying attention will see coming. No matter how many cameras and how much processing power you stick in an "autonomous driving" system, it will never be able to interpret the many context clues that humans can.
jon81uk
Member
Most of the lane assist systems will allow you to overtake if you indicate.
Which you'd surely do if crossing the centre line? (only needs a flick of the stalk)
On my old car, it only kicked in if doing over 40mph (indicated, so nearer 36-37mph) and on my current car it's very hit and miss if it detects the line at all given the state of roads (including line painting).
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
But it starts beeping like the bomb in the circus in Octopussy if you cross right over the centre line, even if it is safe to do so. It encourages people to pass cyclists closer than is safe, and closer than is recommended by the highway code.
If you need lane keeping technology, you shouldn't be on the road IMO.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Any centreline, or is it just incorrectly programmed not to allow passing a cyclist travelling at below whatever-the-speed-is (10mph I think?) by crossing a solid centreline?
If any centreline that's dangerous and should be illegal.
It's really an anti-fatigue measure on motorways and duals, and purely in that context it's a good thing (any driver can be fatigued and may not even realise). On single carriageways I'd agree it's dangerous particularly as per the above.
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
I haven't driven the car often enough to determine what the issue is. No idea how it deals with a solid centre-line as I haven't attempted to cross one.
I can see the positive side on the fatigue front for sure, though I do feel the systems aren't yet at a standard to be deployed widely, particularly the systems that interact with the control of the vehicle. Passive systems that simply issue an audible warning and/or display a message on the dash are fine, if annoying.
With safety ratings now seemingly more about technology than physical safety (crumple zones etc) - and I understand the logic so it isn't a bad thing - car makers are all rushing to find ways to implement things like LKA - and must also want to keep costs down.
Some cars appear to have done some of the safety features very poorly. My current car just gives a warning with zero correction if I straddle a line (and sometimes even when I haven't, while at other times I could drive over a line and it does nothing), but my older car would steer (lightly) and was a lot more accurate. Cars like the MG4, at least on early software, seemed borderline dangerous from user reports.
I do wonder if a poor software implementation should reduce a score, as surely it isn't safe if it doesn't work as intended and can't earn a higher safety score.
I wonder if the car industry allows car makers to simply self declare that they comply, without thorough testing (which obviously costs time and money)?
Some cars appear to have done some of the safety features very poorly. My current car just gives a warning with zero correction if I straddle a line (and sometimes even when I haven't, while at other times I could drive over a line and it does nothing), but my older car would steer (lightly) and was a lot more accurate. Cars like the MG4, at least on early software, seemed borderline dangerous from user reports.
I do wonder if a poor software implementation should reduce a score, as surely it isn't safe if it doesn't work as intended and can't earn a higher safety score.
I wonder if the car industry allows car makers to simply self declare that they comply, without thorough testing (which obviously costs time and money)?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
There are probably lessons from Boeing in there - stick shaker equivalent (seat shaker?), good, unexpected intervention, bad.
gabrielhj07
Member
I think Citroen developed something along those lines years ago.
Interesting a it is, the latest batch of safety features on cars has nothing to do with switching to electric vehicles which happens to be the subject of this thread.
They did, vibrates the seat when you crossed the white line.
Deafdoggie
Established Member
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It won't go off if you indicate. You should be indicating if going over the line anyway, so I don't see what the issue is.
jon81uk
Member
The cars I've used with it will allow overtaking and lane changes as long as you indicate. You should be indicating if you will cross the centre line anyway.
61653 HTAFC
Veteran Member
There's no need to indicate if there's nobody around who will benefit. The old "mirror, signal, manoeuvre" thing is all well and good but it leads to an entitlement in some- a sort of "I signalled, so you have to let me in" mentality. By doing your observations properly you can determine if a signal is necessary. If it it's quiet, and the only traffic around is yourself and the vehicle you're passing, you shouldn't need to indicate as nobody will benefit from you doing so. The driving instructor Ashley Neal talks about this aspect on his YouTube channel.
Anyway, my main issue with these systems is that they think they know better than the human, but more often than not they don't. Some might say "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good", but when it comes to things like this, anything less than perfect is definitely not good.
For what it is worth.
My wife was looking for a new car at the weekend. When we asked the Toyota salesman how we'd be able to turn off the Lane Keep Assist on the model she was looking at he said that was the most common question he was asked.
Solution looking for a problem in my opinion.
My wife was looking for a new car at the weekend. When we asked the Toyota salesman how we'd be able to turn off the Lane Keep Assist on the model she was looking at he said that was the most common question he was asked.
Solution looking for a problem in my opinion.
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While that's true, as we transition away from ICE to EV, all of the tech will eventually apply only to electric. Because of safety ratings, this tech will end up on even the most basic entry level models (unless the car maker is happy to sell a 0-1 rated car). Take the Dacia Spring as an example, which will likely get these features so as not to be zero rated.
In Roadcraft, you'll also be told only to indicate if someone is there to see it - but you can see many, many examples of motorists not being aware enough to indicate for a cyclist, or for pedestrians wishing to cross a road at a roundabout or junction and the car either didn't check, or didn't care to indicate.
If you are 100% sure then, sure, don't indicate but in the end it's usually easier to do it because if you indicate and nobody sees it, no harm done. The other way around on the other hand.
If your car is going to try and steer you, potentially violently on some systems, back into lane then that's not good if you're overtaking something/someone. Indicating stops this, so you'd surely do it for that reason. Then by all means argue as to why this is a thing and contradicts what you've watched on a YouTube channel or read in a book.
I don't think that this is the same as someone who just indicates and then forces their way out because they've told you and now you have to stop. That's not in any rules. That's arrogance, and you don't make rules to suit people who shouldn't be driving or should be perhaps sent for retraining.
The fact is, technology is changing the way we drive - and not always for the better. Touchscreens in cars are making many things more complicated, ergo more dangerous, and it seems new rules might steer the industry back to using physical buttons more. And to keep on topic about EVs, I'd say that given many EV makers feel that their new EV-only platforms need to be that bit more futuristic, there is a higher chance of a pure EV having these sorts of things installed.
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