Avanti West Coast Cancellations

43066 · 17 Mar 2024

185 said:
The £600 is a bargain compared to the cancellation fee. It's also a measure of how utterly hated FirstGroup are in West Coast, having to reach such a figure for staff to agree to work a rest day. If there is a lessons learnt exercise for Mr Bailey and the DfT in this, it is next time you consider a bidder, add in the question, "Will this bidder cause World War 3 & upset all the TUPEd staff?"

Absolutely.

Efini92 said:
Apologies if it’s already been answered.
It’s already started, came into effect yesterday.

Glad to hear it. Some excellent work by ASLEF there, despite the political considerations. £600 minimum, as I understand it?

Deafdoggie said:
I've no idea. But as everyone on here says the drivers are now out driving trains, I don't see it's relevant.

But they aren’t, they’ve just advertised again for qualified drivers, and have got people at various stages of training, and a new fleet introduction imminent.

RailUK Forums

jfollows · 17 Mar 2024

JourneyCheck (https://www.journeycheck.com/avantiwestcoast/) currently showing 1 cancellation plus 3 short workings, that’d qualify as “pretty normal” to me. But I have chosen not to make trips to London over recent months because of the unreliable service. Northern, on the other hand …….

Benjwri · 17 Mar 2024

jfollows said:
JourneyCheck (https://www.journeycheck.com/avantiwestcoast/) currently showing 1 cancellation plus 3 short workings, that’d qualify as “pretty normal” to me. But I have chosen not to make trips to London over recent months because of the unreliable service. Northern, on the other hand …….

Exactly, compared even to other FirstGroup TOCs, who OLR isn't even being considered for. GWR has 5 short workings on London services, 7 overall, and 5 cancelations.

Adrian1980uk · 17 Mar 2024

43066 said:
Absolutely.

Glad to hear it. Some excellent work by ASLEF there, despite the political considerations. £600 minimum, as I understand it?

But they aren’t, they’ve just advertised again for qualified drivers, and have got people at various stages of training, and a new fleet introduction imminent.

But why does this have to all be agreed in contract, in proper private industry, if you were offering overtime and got no takers you just offer more money. Most contract's will say double time on a Sunday for example but if there was particular Sunday (Easter for example) you offer a one off £xxx to get people in.

I guess once again it's DFT getting involved that causes this issue like many others at the moment

43066 · 17 Mar 2024

Adrian1980uk said:
But why does this have to all be agreed in contract, in proper private industry, if you were offering overtime and got no takers you just offer more money. Most contract's will say double time on a Sunday for example but if there was particular Sunday (Easter for example) you offer a one off £xxx to get people in.

I guess once again it's DFT getting involved that causes this issue like many others at the moment

Collective bargaining means it has to be agreed across the board (individual employees can’t ask for a higher hourly rate to cover a particular shift, for example), but you’re right the DfT have prevented these deals being reached, which is madness in an industry that relies heavily on overtime. TPE were even prevented from reinstating their previous deal, and the service descended into chaos for months, until the OLR took over and miraculously the deal reappeared…

I don’t have exact figures, but Avanti are on a higher than average basic, so £600 for an average length shift will AIUI be somewhere between time * 1.5 and time * 2, so completely in line with other parts of the rail industry, and indeed other sectors.

Economist · 17 Mar 2024

43066 said:
Collective bargaining means it has to be agreed across the board (individual employees can’t ask for a higher hourly rate to cover a particular shift, for example), but you’re right the DfT have prevented these deals being reached, which is madness in an industry that relies heavily on overtime. TPE were even prevented from reinstating their previous deal, and the service descended into chaos for months, until the OLR took over and miraculously the deal reappeared…

I'm surprised First Group didn't take the DfT to court over that, talk about being set up to fail. Makes one wonder who would actually want to run a rail franchise/concession these days.

Krokodil · 17 Mar 2024

Deafdoggie said:
I've no idea. But as everyone on here says the drivers are now out driving trains, I don't see it's relevant.

It takes years for a driver to become fully productive. Even once passed out they will be "PQA" and restricted to core routes and traction. At Liverpool this means not signing Voyagers or North Wales and applies to a substantial chunk of the depot.

Experienced drivers have also been leaving, whether to retirement, other TOCs, or to freight. Loss of instructors will slow down training.

Economist said:
I'm surprised First Group didn't take the DfT to court over that, talk about being set up to fail. Makes one wonder who would actually want to run a rail franchise/concession these days.

TPE didn't matter so much, the West Coast franchise was the lucrative one.

Aviator88 · 17 Mar 2024

Deafdoggie said:
I've no idea. But as everyone on here says the drivers are now out driving trains, I don't see it's relevant.

The last trainees won't be productive until probably 2026 at the earliest.

scouseyb123 · 17 Mar 2024

Is Preston depot being reduced in driver headcount due to Crewe opening?

dk1 · 17 Mar 2024

Economist said:
I'm surprised First Group didn't take the DfT to court over that, talk about being set up to fail. Makes one wonder who would actually want to run a rail franchise/concession these days.

Since the pandemic and TOCs becoming concessions the clause states that all finances and staff pay deals etc have to be agreed by the DfT.

First are guaranteed a fixed income anyway. Anything that went or was promised before is now confined to the history books.

Nicholas Lewis · 17 Mar 2024

HamworthyGoods said:
£600 is the same rate as at the OLR TPE operation.

Clearly ought to a UK wide payment so we can at least deliver the timetable reliably as that will do more than anything to keep the passengers coming back and maximise fare revenue which is what DfT want.

Efini92 · 18 Mar 2024

43066 said:
Glad to hear it. Some excellent work by ASLEF there, despite the political considerations. £600 minimum, as I understand it?

It’s a flat rate of £600. Personally I’d rather have the same deal as TPE. But it’s still progress on the old rate of time plus a booking on payment.

800001 · 18 Mar 2024

Thing is if the RDW agreement is true, surely, other TOC drivers will also want the same?

43066 · 18 Mar 2024

Economist said:
I'm surprised First Group didn't take the DfT to court over that, talk about being set up to fail. Makes one wonder who would actually want to run a rail franchise/concession these days.

They don’t care because they’re being paid regardless!

800001 said:
Thing isx of the RDW agreement is true, surely, other TOC drivers will also want the same?

The RDW agreement is 100% true. At least one Avanti driver on this thread has confirmed it, and I’ve seen the ASLEF circular.

£600 sounds high, but really only equates to time and a bit, and Avanti have a high basic to begin with. Many of us would rather a lower basic and not have their Ts and Cs.

Efini92 said:
It’s a flat rate of £600. Personally I’d rather have the same deal as TPE. But it’s still progress on the old rate of time plus a booking on payment.

Ta for confirming. And yes I agree - good to see an improvement over what was offered pre Covid, for once.

dk1 · 18 Mar 2024

800001 said:
Thing is if the RDW agreement is true, surely, other TOC drivers will also want the same?

We might want it but wanting & getting are very different things :lol:

Krokodil · 18 Mar 2024

800001 said:
Thing is if the RDW agreement is true, surely, other TOC drivers will also want the same?

It doesn't really matter what they want, what matters is how desperately the TOC in question needs its drivers to work their rest days in order to keep the service going. If the TOC is adequately staffed then it won't need so many volunteers and the incentive will reflect that.

Silverlinky · 18 Mar 2024

Avanti are advertising for Drivers at a number of depots at present. The stated salary for a fully qualified year 1 driver is £57225 which would work out to be around £1100 for a 35 hour week.... or £31.44 an hour.
Assuming an 8 hour average flat rate day would have been worth £251.54 and its now worth £600 as a rest day so its not a bad deal!!

For a 3 year Avanti Driver the quoted salary is £67486, roughly 1300 a week or £37.08 an hour, so that 8 hour flat day would work out at £296.64.

So the £600 deal equates to at least double time on a standard day. They will of course have been receiving an enhancement of some sort already I'd assume so its not really the doubling of the rate, and of course a 10 hour day (£370 now £600 is not double)

43066 · 18 Mar 2024

dk1 said:
We might want it but wanting & getting are very different things

It’ll come eventually.

Silverlinky said:
For a 3 year Avanti Driver the quoted salary is £67486, roughly 1300 a week or £37.08 an hour, so that 8 hour flat day would work out at £296.64.

From what I’ve gathered from those who’ve moved across, the £57k salary is only earned for the first few weeks while they pass out on the traction and a core route or two (so cannot work rest days as unproductive). It progresses north of £60k fairly quickly from there.

Looking at the full driver salary based on an average four day week, which Avanti have, means 8:45 hours worked on a “standard” day, ergo £600 equates to less than double time for an average shift, based on your figures above.

rhys37429 · 18 Mar 2024

Silverlinky said:
Avanti are advertising for Drivers at a number of depots at present. The stated salary for a fully qualified year 1 driver is £57225 which would work out to be around £1100 for a 35 hour week.... or £31.44 an hour.
Assuming an 8 hour average flat rate day would have been worth £251.54 and its now worth £600 as a rest day so its not a bad deal!!

For a 3 year Avanti Driver the quoted salary is £67486, roughly 1300 a week or £37.08 an hour, so that 8 hour flat day would work out at £296.64.

So the £600 deal equates to at least double time on a standard day. They will of course have been receiving an enhancement of some sort already I'd assume so its not really the doubling of the rate, and of course a 10 hour day (£370 now £600 is not double)

Old agreement was 8 hours pay with a book on fee of £125. (Minimum £421)

Silverlinky · 18 Mar 2024

rhys37429 said:
Old agreement was 8 hours pay with a book on fee of £125. (Minimum £421)

And the book on fee was only paid on Rest Days?

Thanks for that info...... so it sounds a lot but actually probably isn't much once the taxman has taken his (or her) 40%

Horizon22 · 18 Mar 2024

Aviator88 said:
The last trainees won't be productive until probably 2026 at the earliest.

That seems rather long. Lack of DIs?

weeklycommuter · 18 Mar 2024

scrapthe503 said:
Fear not, Avanti should be handing the keys back on Thursday. Andy Mellors is already gone, and it seems Alex Hynes’ move is not unrelated.

So, OLR West Coast here we come. Explains the sudden move to do a deal on drivers RDW if the government will soon be accounting for Avanti’s performance in Parliament directly.

Oh, and Andy Burnham is at a TfN conference / big meeting this week where he was going to table a motion, one assumes amongst other mayors, to get rid of Avanti. Perhaps a bit of thunder stealing is planned.

The Government were also presumably not amused by the following

Avanti sorry after leaked presentation cheers 'free money'

The management slides described performance-related payments for staff as "too good to be true".

www.bbc.co.uk

Aviator88 · 18 Mar 2024

Horizon22 said:
That seems rather long. Lack of DIs?

I mean the last to qualify. There are still a substantial amount in the talent pool waiting on course dates, and assuming 18 months to pass out.

JW4 · 18 Mar 2024

43066 said:
The RDW agreement is 100% true. At least one Avanti driver on this thread has confirmed it, and I’ve seen the ASLEF circular.

Can confirm it’s true from another Avanti driver I know, done this week.

Don’t know about the announcement on the 21st tho, but you’ve got scrapthe saying it should be the keys being handed in

Glad that the Hitachi driver training is underway at least

Sealink · 19 Mar 2024

This came up on today's Avanti Journey check page, and it reminded me that I've seen this before - always curious as to what exactly happened!

11:47 Birmingham New Street to London Euston due 13:06 will be cancelled.

This is due to passengers causing a disturbance on a train earlier today.

Once on the Caledonian Seated Sleeper someone got on at Preston and without a valid ticket and was effing and blinding, waking us all up.
Police called etc. Crew were brilliant. So I assume something similar has happened today?

Llandudno · 19 Mar 2024

Sealink said:
This came up on today's Avanti Journey check page, and it reminded me that I've seen this before - always curious as to what exactly happened!

11:47 Birmingham New Street to London Euston due 13:06 will be cancelled.

This is due to passengers causing a disturbance on a train earlier today.

Once on the Caledonian Seated Sleeper someone got on at Preston and without a valid ticket and was effing and blinding, waking us all up.
Police called etc. Crew were brilliant. So I assume something similar has happened today?

Perhaps this was the next option on the Random Excuse Generator……

Bungle965 · 19 Mar 2024

Llandudno said:
Perhaps this was the next option on the Random Excuse Generator……

The TM for this service was assaulted.

Scrambled Eggs · 19 Mar 2024

Forgive me if this sounds like a stupid question but if Avanti are handing back the keys and there is movement Thursday…. Will this be bad news for those (including myself) who are waiting in the talent pool for a course date this year..?

dk1 · 19 Mar 2024

Scrambled Eggs said:
Forgive me if this sounds like a stupid question but if Avanti are handing back the keys and there is movement Thursday…. Will this be bad news for those (including myself) who are waiting in the talent pool for a course date this year..?

Shouldn’t be. Everything just carries on as normal.

Scrambled Eggs · 19 Mar 2024

dk1 said:
Shouldn’t be. Everything just carries on as normal.

Thanks for the swift response.

Avanti West Coast Cancellations

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