duesselmartin
Established Member
Sadly now a push pull set.
-
Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
Interesting journeys in Belgium and the Netherlands
- Thread starter ainsworth74
- Start date
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
hermit
Member
If you go to the far east of Belgium, the branch to Spa is an interesting side trip.
Gent St Pieters is an impressive station, though not as spectacular as Antwerp Centraal. And on the coast Knokke has a good Art Deco station, rather reminiscent of the Southern Railway.
Gent St Pieters is an impressive station, though not as spectacular as Antwerp Centraal. And on the coast Knokke has a good Art Deco station, rather reminiscent of the Southern Railway.
Forgot to say. Mamy places in Belgium have 2 names. One Flemish, one French. So Tournai is Doornik. And some places also have English names. And others also have German names.
And Belgian French isnt the same as French French. Especially numbers. No quatre vingt dix in BE!
And Belgian French isnt the same as French French. Especially numbers. No quatre vingt dix in BE!
43096
On Moderation
- Joined
- 23 Nov 2015
- Messages
- 15,317
You mean thankfully. Those old units were utterly rancid.
childwallblues
Established Member
The old two car trains do not reign supreme any more. From 10th December a new RE29 from Aachen to Liege St Lambert was introduced scheduled to use Class 18 + 4 x I11 carriages. Although this was short lived as the old Cassic units have returned to the service.
Credit to Benelux Railways Society.
The confuse the tourist winner has to be Braine-le-Comte/'s-Gravelbraken. Honorary mention to Mons/Bergen.
AFAIK one of the 3 compositions Liège-Aachen still runs with an old unit.
AlbertBeale
Established Member
Note that for years now, parts of Gent StP station have been a building site, revamping/expanding the platforms bit by bit. A year or so back, passenger access to one of the platforms was by a stairway which was little more than bits of scaffolding.
Though yes, the main old entrance area is rather fine, with the building works affecting various part of the pedestrian routes under the platforms, and not the main entrance. (Though I wonder whether there'll still be level access to the main under-platform cross-passage when the works are finished; it looks like the revamped main cross-passage will end up being lower than the entrance hall.) And, of course, like with many Belgian stations, there's a bus and tram interchange bang outside the station.
Shaw S Hunter
Established Member
Not to mention Lille/Rijsel!
I was in Aachen last weekend and saw a really clunky old SNCB unit there awaiting departure to liege.
The scaffolding was removed recently, after the new platform for tracks 7/8 was completed. I heard they're not going to use these stairs anymore for the rest of the platforms.
I use Gent SP to get to work and every few weeks they make changes to the pedestrian routes through the station. Although they're quite good at keeping the station usable.
Good question... maybe the 3D impression here sheds some light over that?
There are small differences indeed. Also, Dutch in Belgium is called Dutch.
duesselmartin
Established Member
3 week ago it was loco hauled. It seemed to have difficulty on the Aachen incline. So it seems to be hit and miss.
That would be very strange. The same locomotives were also used for the Nightjet trains, which are a lot longer and heavier.
AlbertBeale
Established Member
Yes - access/egress has always been possible and reasonably well signposted when I've been there. Though last time I came off a higher-numbered platform (fairly recently), and ended up towards the west end of the undercroft [maybe there was no other way down; I forget], there were signs to other platforms etc stuck on the temporary fencing, but nothing I could see which explicitly said "Exit". However, having an existing mental map of the station, I headed the way I knew was generally "outwards" and ended up in the dingy western underpassage nearer to the bus station rather than the main underpassage from/to the main entrance.
Thanks for the video link. It's not completely clear from that, but it does seem more likely than not that the main circulation area under the platforms will be at a lower level than the main entrance is. With the under-platform area being not just a widening of the existing main underpass leading from the entrance call, but looking like it's destined to be a major area of shops etc, is it expected that a/the main entrance to the platform access would be from that western end, rather than heading straight under from the main entrance hall. After all, the ticket office etc is at that end of the building.
From the video, it looks like the whole under-platform area will be so transformed that I wonder what the aesthetic and conceptual linkages with the existing main entrance will be like. I worry that the end result might look and fell like a nice old building frontage tacked on to something completely unconnected and alien - I think it's important to have a "friendly" integration of old and new. (See Prague for what sometimes happens...)
I think you mean flemish is BE is called Dutch. Netherlands people regard it as a defective dialect.
At Bruxelles Midi, on the direction signs, the French is above the 'Dutch'
At Brussel Noord the Dutch is above the French
At Centraal they swap them around each year
It looks like you know other Dutch people than I do... (BTW I'm Dutch and have lived in Belgium for quite some years now.)
In any case, I just meant to say that it's not correct to refer to Dutch in Belgium as Flemish.
hermit
Member
It would be more accurate to say that Dutch in Belgium is called Vlaams (Flemish).
And I think you will find that in the Brussels region, which is strictly bilingual, the use of both languages in station signage and elsewhere is carefully balanced to ensure that neither language has a perceived dominance. This also applies eg to the changing destination screens on the metro, which alternate between the languages.
The use of the correct names is taken very seriously in Belgian politics, and reflects the constant jockeying for position between the rival Walloon (French) and Vlaams (Flemish) communities. There may be two names for most places, but except in bilingual Brussels and a few other places, only one will be official, depending on whether the place is in the French or Flemish half of the country. But direction signs from across the border will be in the other language, often unhelpfully obscure, as has been mentioned eg Luik for Liège.
Nope. That's why I included a link to the website of the Belgian government. Belgium specifically opted to have Dutch as the (then) second national language and not something else. We shouldn't try to know it better.
But we're getting off-topic, I think.
hermit
Member
Without wishing to prolong this unduly, we’re not talking about ’something else’ - it’s the same language whatever you call it. And my experience from living in Belgium is that the locals call it Vlaams.
Shaw S Hunter
Established Member
I'm afraid there's plenty of disagreement about that point. For example the US State Dept identifies them as separate languages when assessing the need for staff being posted overseas needing instruction beforehand. And having spent time in the Netherlands I was able to pickup a good deal of Dutch and to this day can understand it reasonably well. But Flemish is rather challenging to my ears. For native speakers from both places the two are mutually intelligible and the differences in usage are relatively few. And to muddy the waters further there are many in the south and east of the Netherlands who say the way their language is spoken in the Randstad (Amsterdam-Den Haag-Rotterdam-Utrecht-Amsterdam "circle") is becoming gradually different too. Ultimately it's not worth getting too excited about but still worth respecting the fact that differences do exist.
DanielB
Member
The east and south of the Netherlands have dialects more widely spoken among locals. In the west people from various regions are much more mixed up and dialects are less present (but do exist). For me, the difference between my place of birth (Dordrecht, just below Rotterdam) and Amersfoort where I live now is clearly audible.
In Belgium the official language is definitely Dutch and as native Dutch speaker I can perfectly understand Belgians when they are speaking. However I'd consider Flemish more as a dialect which is very widely spoken. Spelling and many words are the same, though there are differences probably based on historical reasons.
For example in Belgium you'd hear more words derived from French and in the Netherlands more words derived from German: in Belgium they would call a suitcase a "valies" (from French "valise") whereas in the Netherlands such a thing is called a "koffer" (similar to the German "Koffer")
Regarding the use of Flemish and French, on the Eupen - Oostende train which I used between Welkenraedt and Bruxelles the order of the languages in announcements changed at different stations. I'm not sure if they alternated the languages at each stop or used the majority language at individual stations. Do they also make announcements in German at Eupen which is in the German speaking area of Belgium?
SHD
Member
- Joined
- 18 Jul 2012
- Messages
- 459
SNCB/NMBS is regulated by the _Loi sur l’emploi des langues en matière administrative_. Announcements must be carried out in the respective language(s) of the specific territory of a station. As an operator, SNCB has literally no leeway in the way it uses languages.
The usage of languages by the authorities (and public enterprises) is defined by law. Announcements have to be done in the language(s) of the region. In Eupen (and Hergenrath
, but I can't recall any announcements there), German needs to be used first, and then French, because it's a municipality with language facilities. In the very few cases that I've heard an announcement in the train between Welkenraedt and Eupen, it was indeed in German and French. English (or other non-national languages) can be used, but all national languages (Dutch, French, German) then need to be used first, in the correct order of course. Brussels is the only bilingual region and there Dutch and French need to be used as a minimum; the order is as described in post #47.
Last edited:
johnnychips
Established Member
I have been coming to Belgium, Gent in particular, at least three times a year since 1987. I really cannot recall any time when they haven’t been doing something to Sint Pieters station.
In my opinion, the most scenic line is from Liege to Luxembourg; the nicest small place to visit is Thuin (which has a preserved tramway); the best rail-accessible walk is from Hergenrath to Aachen (visiting three countries and Netherlands’ highest point); and the best city by miles is, of course, Gent.
And all my Belgian friends say they speak Dutch, not Flemish.
In my opinion, the most scenic line is from Liege to Luxembourg; the nicest small place to visit is Thuin (which has a preserved tramway); the best rail-accessible walk is from Hergenrath to Aachen (visiting three countries and Netherlands’ highest point); and the best city by miles is, of course, Gent.
And all my Belgian friends say they speak Dutch, not Flemish.
AlbertBeale
Established Member
Is that hill where the 3 countries meet really the highest point in the Netherlands? I suppose that's plausible! (Or is the highest place elsewhere in that district?) Yes, it's a pleasant walk around some of that tri-point area - especially if you do it with only a fairly primitive map of the local footpaths to use for navigation.... But I got to the little tourist site up the top at the triple point itself in the end, via the odd fall into a ditch, and discovering a sad war memorial hidden in the woods. When I was there I didn't walk from as far away as Hergenrath (yes, I know it's actually only a few miles away!), but started by getting a bus out of Aachen, wandered around in some wooded parts a bit, and then climbed up on what I think was mostly the Belgian side to get to the tourist tat at the top. I then found a windy road down on the Dutch side - which I guess is the main public/tourist route to and from the top.
Re "all my Belgian friends say they speak Dutch not Flemish" - is that because they're explaining it in English?
AlastairFraser
Established Member
- Joined
- 12 Aug 2018
- Messages
- 2,164
Perhaps they're from Limburg (not a historical part of the former county of Flanders) and speak a Limburg dialect of Dutch, not Flemish (or indeed the language of Limburgish, which is a bit like a cross between Low German and Dutch).
eastwestdivide
Established Member
The three-country point is about 100 metres or so from the highest point. I hired a bike in Aachen, and went to the 3CP, down to the impressive Montzen viaduct on the freight line that tunnels under the 3CP, then across to Hergenrath for a train back to Aachen.
Photos over on RMWeb at https://www.rmweb.co.uk/forums/topi...nd-brown-coal/?do=findComment&comment=3697975