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LMR Timetable 1961-62

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Hermit60109

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Hi, new to the forum. Would appreciate help with any information on a passenger express that arrived into London Euston around 09.30 or just before? Trying to find out which service Coronation Class No 46236 'City of Bradford' worked on the Up express around 1961-62. Any information would be most appreciated thank you.
 
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30907

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Hi and welcome.
Here is the winter 1961-62 timetable.
https://timetableworld.com/ttw-viewer.php?token=fe75931c-af93-4c12-b4cb-308b8e204db0
As you will see (Table 50), the 6.43am from Wolverhampton due 10.18 was the first weekday daytime express into Euston.
The previous services were overnight trains, the "Royal Highlander" due at 8.30am from Inverness and the "Northern Irishman" due 8.25am from Stranraer - it would not be impossible for one of those to be an hour late.

Do you have any more information that would help identify the train?
 
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Taunton

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Coronations were not normally used into Euston on the Birmingham trains, the first of the day from further north, probably Liverpool, would be even later.

By the end of 1961 the bulk of Class 40 diesels had been built and there were about 100 of them on the WCML, and they were assigned to many of the long distance runs. Their heating boilers were unreliable, and so, especially on overnight trains in winter, substitutions by Coronations were not uncommon. These could often not keep up to the diesel times, plus there were significant periodic delays from the electrification works, so arriving at London late was typical. I'd go for one of these.
 
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Hermit60109

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Thank you for the welcome and the very useful information so far and the link to the 1961-62 timetable. We looked at the overnight trains but with all those due in and out of the station by 08.30 started to rule them out. The late running is now a possible and more likely possibility. Sadly no more information recorded on the original Kodachrome mount and no headboard or reporting number on the front smokebox. A 12B shed plate for Carlisle Upperby. BR Red livery applied in November 1959 and seen here with the OLE flashes which I think were applied from 1960 onwards. You can see the station clock at 09.29 with the sun shining into the station making this a morning arrival. Many thanks again. Simon

SRL No 777 Coronation Class No 46236 at Euston station railforum.jpg
 
Western Sunset

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The platform is empty so the train might've arrived an hour or so earlier. Things were at a slower pace back then...
BR would've produced booklets outlining platform working arrangements; wonder if one is on the internet on Robert Carroll's coaching stock site for Euston in this period?
 
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On the assumption that the photo is of an overnight train, this is just guesswork, but was more platform dwell time allowed for sleepers? By definition, after the passengers had gone, time would be needed to strip the berths, offload dirty linen and towels and also to load supplies of fresh linen and refreshment stocks for the pantries. It seems probable that this would have been done at Euston to capitalise on ease of access and being under cover at a platform rather than doing in the carriage sidings and sheds.

Does anyone know how the linen found its way to and from the Willesden laundry? If it went by rail, it must have been easier to send hampers by the vanload direct from Euston rather than gathering them up from various stabling points.

With the loco carrying an Upperby shed plate, does this perhaps suggest the train originated in Stranraer? Locos would need changing somewhere. A Coronation would surely never have penetrator Galloway.
 
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47296lastduff

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How about the shot being in early summer, so still sunlit at 2129?
This would offer the Miday Scot (1330 GLC) arr 2100, or the Red Rose (1725 LLS) arr 2130.
My money would be on the former, for a 12B loco.
 
Western Sunset

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By the height of the sun, I'd say this was taken on a summer morning; note shadows from right. Austin FX4 cab in background so certainly after 1958. Loco went maroon in July 58 after its last heavy general overhaul. But now livery looking grubby, plus with overhead wire flashes, so I'd say could be 61. It was a Carlisle engine at the time, but that doesn't really help much.
ECS would usually go to Willesden/Wembley where bedding etc was changed; not at Euston I imagine.

Second coach looks LMS; would've thought day expresses were Mk1s by then.
 
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Magdalia

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47296lastduff said:
How about the shot being in early summer, so still sunlit at 2129?
Click to expand...
The angle of the sun clearly indicates that the picture is 9.29am not 9.29pm. Look at the shadows of the pillars and the platform barrow.

In those days there was no rush to clear the platforms occupied by the sleeper arrivals. The platforms were not needed for anything else. I don't have information for Euston but I can give comparable times for the Aberdeen sleeper arrivals at Kings Cross in 1964. These were booked to arrive at 6.32am and 6.56 am with the ECS moves to Hornsey booked to depart at 8.24 am and 8.45 am.
 
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47296lastduff

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I have looked through Chris Coates' book of 1962 main daytime sightings, but this is only for Saturdays , and I have not got the equivalent 1961 book. 46236 is shown as going back North on several dates, any of which could be relevant to the photo.
1305 Euston to Perth (as far as Carlisle) on 10/03/62 and 17/03/62.
1138 Euston to Workington on 28/07/62, but this may be too early for the turning and servicing of the loco.
1330 Euston to Perth (as far as Carlisle) on 01/09/62.
 
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Hermit60109

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Wow! Many thanks for all the replies much appreciated and I agree that it was a morning arrival rather than 9.29pm. 46236 did work the up Northern Irishman on 17th March 1962 as seen here descending Camden Bank https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/5565490390/in/photolist-2nTicja-2nTj7aG-9tNAoS
I have a slide in my collection of the loco working back as pointed out above on the Euston-Perth on the 17th March 1962 this was taken at Stafford. Did the repaint into maroon take place in July 58 as I was told by someone else it was July 59? Thanks for looking in Chris Coates book of 1962 and the information contained in it.

Looking through my collection at other 46236 slides I noted this one taken at Preston departing platform 4 on a northbound express dated 26th May 1961. The condition of the loco certainly looks very similar to the Euston slide although yes showing the other side, nice and sunny though again. So maybe this was the down working and a date for the overnight sleeper?
SRL No 231 Princess Coronation No 46236 at Preston 26th May 1961 copy.jpg
 
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47296lastduff

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The up train photo on 17/03/62 seems to show a fairly shiny smokebox door, unlike the photo at Euston platform 1.
 
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I would have commented that the original photo shows a deserted arrival platform, but the loco blowing off, which to me shows a recent arrival, given that the fireman would have typically run down the fire in the last 30 miles or so. But then the picture of it descending Camden Bank at the end of the run has it vigorously blowing off - why ever still be generating steam at full pressure at this stage of the journey? I know that by these times firemen were often new and less skilled in the finesse of the job, but this is pretty basic stuff and the driver would also be giving comments on such.
 
Wilts Wanderer

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Taunton said:
I would have commented that the original photo shows a deserted arrival platform, but the loco blowing off, which to me shows a recent arrival, given that the fireman would have typically run down the fire in the last 30 miles or so. But then the picture of it descending Camden Bank at the end of the run has it vigorously blowing off - why ever still be generating steam at full pressure at this stage of the journey? I know that by these times firemen were often new and less skilled in the finesse of the job, but this is pretty basic stuff and the driver would also be giving comments on such.
Click to expand...

Has steam possibly been raised to assist with shunting the stock out? Or even just in preparation for the light engine move back up to Camden shed. A boiler full of water (i.e. with a relatively small steam space) enables pressure to be built without a huge amount of firing being done, although of course the steam then doesn’t last very long, but enough to reach shed?
 
thesignalman

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Rescars said:
On the assumption that the photo is of an overnight train, this is just guesswork, but was more platform dwell time allowed for sleepers? By definition, after the passengers had gone, time would be needed to strip the berths, offload dirty linen and towels and also to load supplies of fresh linen and refreshment stocks for the pantries.
Click to expand...
Yes, but for a different reason. Sleepers would often arrive before 7 am but time was allowed for passengers to rise and dress. Stock generally didn't leave for the carriage sidings for cleaning until after 9 am at the earliest.

They were a pain in the but operationally. You needed those platforms for peak hour arrivals!

John
 
WesternLancer

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Hermit60109 said:
Wow! Many thanks for all the replies much appreciated and I agree that it was a morning arrival rather than 9.29pm. 46236 did work the up Northern Irishman on 17th March 1962 as seen here descending Camden Bank https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/5565490390/in/photolist-2nTicja-2nTj7aG-9tNAoS
I have a slide in my collection of the loco working back as pointed out above on the Euston-Perth on the 17th March 1962 this was taken at Stafford. Did the repaint into maroon take place in July 58 as I was told by someone else it was July 59? Thanks for looking in Chris Coates book of 1962 and the information contained in it.

Looking through my collection at other 46236 slides I noted this one taken at Preston departing platform 4 on a northbound express dated 26th May 1961. The condition of the loco certainly looks very similar to the Euston slide although yes showing the other side, nice and sunny though again. So maybe this was the down working and a date for the overnight sleeper?
View attachment 154786
Click to expand...
Whilst I can't help with the question - juts to say I'm very much enjoying the copies of these slides you have posted! I guess they are not your own - hence the question from you about the image, but I wondered are they from a friend or relatives collection or ones you have acquired taken by other photographers not known to you?

The image at Euston posted to start with is especially good. Post #6
 
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Hermit60109

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WesternLancer said:
Whilst I can't help with the question - juts to say I'm very much enjoying the copies of these slides you have posted! I guess they are not your own - hence the question from you about the image, but I wondered are they from a friend or relatives collection or ones you have acquired taken by other photographers not known to you?

The image at Euston posted to start with is especially good. Post #6
Click to expand...
Pleased you enjoyed the slides shown here. No I didn't take the shots both are part of my large collection of glass plates, medium format negatives and original 35mm slides. Sadly the Euston one didn't come with any information on the Kodachrome mount which is usual and no photographer known. It will later be seen on the front cover of Back Track with a colour feature on the Coronation Pacific's inside later this year. If we get to know the name of the photographer of course that will be credited but I've yet to see it published elsewhere. I enjoy the research into each slide, neg or glass plate and of course the editing work on the image in PS. Thanks again for all the help above it is very much appreciated.
 
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Magdalia

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thesignalman said:
You needed those platforms for peak hour arrivals!
Click to expand...
At Euston in the early 1960s that wasn't the case. There wasn't much of a morning peak.

I have the 1965 WTT, there are only 8 morning peak arrivals at Euston before 9.30am: 5 from Bletchley, 2 from Northampton and 1 from Tring. The first up train from further out than Northampton was from Birmingham, arriving at 10.8 am.
 
WesternLancer

WesternLancer

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Hermit60109 said:
Pleased you enjoyed the slides shown here. No I didn't take the shots both are part of my large collection of glass plates, medium format negatives and original 35mm slides. Sadly the Euston one didn't come with any information on the Kodachrome mount which is usual and no photographer known. It will later be seen on the front cover of Back Track with a colour feature on the Coronation Pacific's inside later this year. If we get to know the name of the photographer of course that will be credited but I've yet to see it published elsewhere. I enjoy the research into each slide, neg or glass plate and of course the editing work on the image in PS. Thanks again for all the help above it is very much appreciated.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the added info!
 
thesignalman

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Magdalia said:
At Euston in the early 1960s that wasn't the case. There wasn't much of a morning peak.

I have the 1965 WTT, there are only 8 morning peak arrivals at Euston before 9.30am: 5 from Bletchley, 2 from Northampton and 1 from Tring. The first up train from further out than Northampton was from Birmingham, arriving at 10.8 am.
Click to expand...
That's a rather blinkered view.

Include the New Line service, and allow for the half dozen or so sleeper arrivals and the morning Down Express departures and you will find the station was congested indeed.

John
 
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Magdalia

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thesignalman said:
That's a rather blinkered view.

Include the New Line service, and allow for the half dozen or so sleeper arrivals and the morning Down Express departures and you will find the station was congested indeed.

John
Click to expand...
The down express departures would be on the other side of the station. Pre-electrification the long distance services would not be able to use the low numbered platforms for departures. From what I can see on a 1953 map platforms 1, 2 and 3 only had access to the down carriage line which was not passed for passenger traffic in those days. The sleepers only needed to clear platforms 1, 2 and 3 in time for the first main line arrivals, which were after 10am.
 
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