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Coventry VLR

Energy

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Monitored by a driver, rather than a control centre though, no?
Usually they are monitored by the driver only. But there is no reason why it couldn't be remotely monitored like your suggestion for VLR.
Or multiple units could couple together to meet a demand surge. An incoming tram at a terminus could couple up to one or more spares parked at the buffer stop. Many full-size conventional tram designs are available in varying lengths, usually accomplished by joining the required number of standard modules together. I could see a very light tram design evolving in the same way.
None of the promotional images have shown multiple units in operation.

A more tram-like design of multiple modular sections may have been better than the inflexible single vehicle.
 
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edwin_m

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Coupled vehicles need very long couplings and/or tapered ends if they are to go round the tight curves found on tramways without the corners of adjacent vehicles coming into contact. For a number of small vehicles coupled together, the proportion of the length that doesn't carry many passengers will be quite high (even leaving aside the presence of cabs, which would disappear with autonomous operation). That, and the benefits of being able to pass through inside the vehicle, is probably why articulated trams are more common than coupled trams.

An articulated bogie has a higher axle load, because it's supporting up to twice the weight that a bogie under the end of a single or coupled rigid vehicle does. That might have consequences for the amount of concrete needed underneath the rail and hence the excavation depth and ability to avoid buried services. But I actually doubt that because I've a feeling the most severe load case for tram track may be from heavy road vehicles crossing it at unpredictable angles.

However, axle load also affects wheel size - a smaller wheel has a smaller contact patch with the rail, so if it's carrying more load the pressures and stresses will be higher and may push either the wheel or the rail into plastic (permanent) deformation. Larger wheels are entirely feasible but will result in a higher floor and generally heavier running gear, so we may be running into some vicious circles (no pun intended!) here.
 

MarkyT

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Coupled vehicles need very long couplings and/or tapered ends if they are to go round the tight curves found on tramways without the corners of adjacent vehicles coming into contact. For a number of small vehicles coupled together, the proportion of the length that doesn't carry many passengers will be quite high (even leaving aside the presence of cabs, which would disappear with autonomous operation). That, and the benefits of being able to pass through inside the vehicle, is probably why articulated trams are more common than coupled trams.
Perhaps autonomous vehicles could couple virtually rather than doing so mechanically. They could space themselves out a bit more on a tight turn as required, at a necessarily limited speed.
However, axle load also affects wheel size - a smaller wheel has a smaller contact patch with the rail, so if it's carrying more load the pressures and stresses will be higher and may push either the wheel or the rail into plastic (permanent) deformation. Larger wheels are entirely feasible but will result in a higher floor and generally heavier running gear, so we may be running into some vicious circles (no pun intended!) here.
Larger wheels might intrude into the cabin within wheelboxes, as in many existing low-floor tram designs and buses. That often limits interior layouts to having only longitudinal seats directly over the wheels. Incorporating traction motors in such a low-floor configuration is no doubt challenging, but tram makers already manage it, and the installed power and size for an even smaller, lighter vehicle should mean the traction equipment also shrinks a bit.
 

AlastairFraser

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Usually they are monitored by the driver only. But there is no reason why it couldn't be remotely monitored like your suggestion for VLR.
Economically it is easier if you don't have to pay for a driver, but have a controller and remote security monitoring operator instead (especially because the controller/security operator can monitor multiple vehicles at a time.)
 

Northerngirl

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How are they going to be allowed to automate it, we're constantly being told how hard it is on the very controlled railway, so a Street runing tram must be a regulation nightmare, surely it will have attendees like the dlr
 

AlastairFraser

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How are they going to be allowed to automate it, we're constantly being told how hard it is on the very controlled railway, so a Street runing tram must be a regulation nightmare, surely it will have attendees like the dlr
Part of the automation issues are to do with legacy infrastructure. Automation wouldn't necessarily mean completely computerised operation, but operation via a control room.

I'm not against VLR, but on a short route like this there is little to no point when a bus lane can be used. On longer routes though, VLR is definitely a better option.
It's just a trial they're applying for permission for, it's not intended to be the full route.
 
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YorkRailFan

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How are they going to be allowed to automate it, we're constantly being told how hard it is on the very controlled railway, so a Street runing tram must be a regulation nightmare, surely it will have attendees like the dlr
Looking at the video posted in #38, there appears to be a small cab for the driver at one end. Do we know if there will be a loop at each end to turn in around?
 

AlastairFraser

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Do we even know how long the full route would be? Its not very convincing to have a short route even as a trial when a bus can be used.
Suggested routes are on page 17 of the presentation here: https://www.coventry.gov.uk/downloa...-s-urban-very-light-rail-project-presentation

I'll also attach the image below.

From the diagram, I'd suggest it's likely to be a loop via Tile Hill station- UoW - Cov station - City Centre (the dark blue route on the diagram).
Screenshot 2024-03-20 200913.png
 

Russel

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If this is only as a trial and not for public use, why are they planning to dig up the city centre to lay the tracks?

Can't they do this on an quiet industrial estate somewhere where few people are going to be inconvenienced?
 

AlastairFraser

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If this is only as a trial and not for public use, why are they planning to dig up the city centre to lay the tracks?

Can't they do this on an quiet industrial estate somewhere where few people are going to be inconvenienced?
Because they want to see how people will interact with it in a busy shopping area, and also so they can extend it and open it for revenue service after trials?
 

NIT100

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Because they want to see how people will interact with it in a busy shopping area, and also so they can extend it and open it for revenue service after trials?
Why not trial it at the University of Warwick? Still a busy environment and forms part of a future route.

Why do they need to see how it interacts anyway? It is a small tram, and trams already exist.
 
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edwin_m

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They have the test track in Dudley already, which is ideal for testing in a segregated environment to make sure the vehicle works and is intrinsically safe. For testing in a public environment they'd have to be absolutely sure beforehand that it presents no significant hazards to bystanders. So I think it has to be a stepping stone to something else - which must mean carrying passengers either as a short station to city shuttle or extending it into the suburbs as previously planned.
 

OscarH

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Why not trial it at the University of Warwick? Still a busy environment and forms part of a future route.

Why do they need to see how it interacts anyway? It is a small tram, and trams already exist.
This does seem like it could have been a good idea. I suppose what obstructions they're trying to test most might be relevant - Warwick has very high volumes of pedestrians near the hour who don't look before crossing the road which is useful, but less cars. Meanwhile the bridge over the ring road by the station is better if you want to test how it interacts with lunatic drivers
 

Energy

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BBC News reporting difficulties getting DfT to approve funds.
In the meeting, DfT civil servants questioned whether VLR represented good "value for money", and whether Coventry was the right place for it.
One senior council source interpreted that as meaning the government would prefer the first VLR route to be in Birmingham instead of Coventry. But the BBC has been told it was not a party political comment.
And the VLR team "noted it was unclear whether this would deliver different benefits from a bus and this would be unknown until it was tried and tested live".
In an email, sent the day after the meeting, the department rejected the business plan and said VLR should progress as a research and development project instead.
I'm glad someone has realised that it's similar capacity but less flexible than a bus.

I'm yet to here anyone name any benefits over a bus which actually relate to this being on rails...
 
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BBC News reporting difficulties getting DfT to approve funds.




I'm glad someone has realised that it's similar capacity but less flexible than a bus.

I'm yet to here anyone name any benefits over a bus which actually relate to this being on rails...
When on segregated track it requires less space for the road than a busway would for the same speed, since you dont have to worry about the driver veering off.
More energy efficient too so can get more mileage off a single charge, so less downtime.
 

Northerngirl

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But the cost of a slightly bigger bus battery is always going be cheaper, and a bus is higher capacity, its undefendable really
 
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But the cost of a slightly bigger bus battery is always going be cheaper, and a bus is higher capacity, its undefendable really
Why? The battery used in the tram will be some off the shelf battery packs from Samsung or some Chinese manufacturer, not any different from a bus
 

Russel

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Because they want to see how people will interact with it in a busy shopping area, and also so they can extend it and open it for revenue service after trials?

First, if they want to see how people interact with trams, then Birmingham has a fully working example to study, secondly, opening it for passenger service after would assume they are building it to passenger carrying standards to start with.
 

edwin_m

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When on segregated track it requires less space for the road than a busway would for the same speed, since you dont have to worry about the driver veering off.
More energy efficient too so can get more mileage off a single charge, so less downtime.
Trams are better than buses in busy pedestrian areas, due to following a predictable path and having the running gear shielded from contact with people.
 

Winthorpe

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Gosh, so much negativity!

I wouldn't necessarily argue it's the best location for it. But it's a proof of concept - a demonstration of the potential of the technology. This site is chosen because it is the urban area nearest to where the technology is being developed (at Warwick University).
 

edwin_m

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Gosh, so much negativity!

I wouldn't necessarily argue it's the best location for it. But it's a proof of concept - a demonstration of the potential of the technology. This site is chosen because it is the urban area nearest to where the technology is being developed (at Warwick University).
Coventry have been supporting VLR (financially as well as morally) since at least 2019. This is the first part of what was intended at that time to be a route to Walsgrave Hospital, which in turn was planned to be the first of several linking Coventry to its suburbs and maybe even to the HS2 interchange. However, it's stated to be not for passenger use, and I'm a bit at a loss how a non-passenger operation in the city centre can prove the concept any further than a non-passenger operation on the non-public test track at Dudley.
 

AlastairFraser

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Why not trial it at the University of Warwick? Still a busy environment and forms part of a future route.

Why do they need to see how it interacts anyway? It is a small tram, and trams already exist.
The UoW will have lower pedestrian counts than Cov city centre - in terms of why they're testing it, the software may need refinement to see how the new autonomous driving tech including collision avoidance works in real life.

You'd only need to do a cursory search of autonomous driving news to see how hard it is to perfect it in real life - how many years have Tesla or Google been struggling with self-driving software?

First, if they want to see how people interact with trams, then Birmingham has a fully working example to study, secondly, opening it for passenger service after would assume they are building it to passenger carrying standards to start with.
Tram operating practise isn't neccesarily totally useful - see my comments on autonomous driving above.
As for the build quality, the whole point of VLR is that they should be able to construct and open it quickly. The prototype vehicles may need tweaking, but I would expect nothing more than that.
 

edwin_m

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The UoW will have lower pedestrian counts than Cov city centre - in terms of why they're testing it, the software may need refinement to see how the new autonomous driving tech including collision avoidance works in real life.

You'd only need to do a cursory search of autonomous driving news to see how hard it is to perfect it in real life - how many years have Tesla or Google been struggling with self-driving software?
Hmmm, maybe they are thinking of the tram equivalent of all those autonomous cars driving round America with "safety drivers" who can (in theory at least) intervene if it looks like the tech is messing up.
 

AlastairFraser

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Hmmm, maybe they are thinking of the tram equivalent of all those autonomous cars driving round America with "safety drivers" who can (in theory at least) intervene if it looks like the tech is messing up.
That's what I thought - although refining the tech should be easier on VLR tracks which are more predictable than your average road conditions.
 

GardenRail

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BBC News reporting difficulties getting DfT to approve funds.




I'm glad someone has realised that it's similar capacity but less flexible than a bus.

I'm yet to here anyone name any benefits over a bus which actually relate to this being on rails...
Based on my recent use of a bus, a 23 plate. The bus rattled, banged, shuck, shuddered, fell down pot holes, steamed up, and the speeding up/slowing down was erratic. Give me a tram anyday. Let's face it, buses are a poor, and cheap option. I would leave my car at home for rail transport, but not for a bus.
 
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