Derailment near Grange Over Sands

The Puddock · 22 Mar 2024

D6130 said:
which, incidentally, doesn't appear to have been replaced to danger.

The arm is sitting halfcocked but if there's something disturbing the wire (for example a train sitting on top of it...) then it may remain, or be moved towards, the off position despite the lever in the box being put back in the frame. That's just inherent in the nature of mechanically operated signalling and upper quadrant semaphore signals. Given that it is a signal for the road on which the train was travelling, a GSM-R emergency call will have been made and nothing else is moving, the risk this poses is absolutely minimal.

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trebor79 · 22 Mar 2024

Crikey, looks like most of the vehicles fully derailed. Bet that was exciting for a little while. But it really is testament to modern standards that everyone walked away. I know people miss old stock for a variety of reasons, but this is the kind of accident which would have resulted in coaches being smashed to matchsticks and people inside mashed up in the past.

D6130 · 22 Mar 2024

The Puddock said:
The arm is sitting halfcocked but if there's something disturbing the wire (for example a train sitting on top of it...) then it may remain, or be moved towards, the off position despite the lever in the box being put back in the frame. That's just inherent in the nature of mechanically operated signalling and upper quadrant semaphore signals. Given that it is a signal for the road on which the train was travelling, a GSM-R emergency call will have been made and nothing else is moving, the risk this poses is absolutely minimal.

True....plus the Grange signaller will have blocked back to Arnside (and Cark or Plumpton in the other direction).

The Puddock · 22 Mar 2024

D6130 said:
True....plus the Grange signaller will have blocked back to Arnside (and Cark or Plumpton in the other direction).

Obstruction danger (6 bells) rather than blocking back (2-4 or 3-3).

scrapy · 22 Mar 2024

Tuesday morning is the current estimate for reopening

Ken H · 22 Mar 2024

The Puddock said:
The arm is sitting halfcocked but if there's something disturbing the wire (for example a train sitting on top of it...) then it may remain, or be moved towards, the off position despite the lever in the box being put back in the frame. That's just inherent in the nature of mechanically operated signalling and upper quadrant semaphore signals. Given that it is a signal for the road on which the train was travelling, a GSM-R emergency call will have been made and nothing else is moving, the risk this poses is absolutely minimal.

One assumes the distant is at caution.

D6130 · 22 Mar 2024

The Puddock said:
Obstruction danger (6 bells) rather than blocking back (2-4 or 3-3).

Yes indeed....my memory isn't getting any better as I get older! :frown:

edwin_m · 22 Mar 2024

Hellzapoppin said:
I think the objects crossing the tracks are pipes, possibly for cables to cross both tracks.

I'm assuming you're looking at the pipe-like objects in the hole...

D6130 said:
Maybe the tube conveying the control wire for the Grange Down Home signal....which, incidentally, doesn't appear to have been replaced to danger.

The Puddock said:
The arm is sitting halfcocked but if there's something disturbing the wire (for example a train sitting on top of it...) then it may remain, or be moved towards, the off position despite the lever in the box being put back in the frame. That's just inherent in the nature of mechanically operated signalling and upper quadrant semaphore signals. Given that it is a signal for the road on which the train was travelling, a GSM-R emergency call will have been made and nothing else is moving, the risk this poses is absolutely minimal.

As said objects have sagged down into the hole, that may well be what is pulling the cable. In any case, if this is the first home signal the train wouldn't be out of the section so no train could approach from the east. A greater hazard is that it is probably foul of the other track, and had another train been approaching at the time there might have been a collision.

Deepgreen · 22 Mar 2024

trebor79 said:
Crikey, looks like most of the vehicles fully derailed. Bet that was exciting for a little while. But it really is testament to modern standards that everyone walked away. I know people miss old stock for a variety of reasons, but this is the kind of accident which would have resulted in coaches being smashed to matchsticks and people inside mashed up in the past.

I really don't think a train of, say, Mk1s would have been reduced to "matchsticks" full of "mashed up" people by this - there was little lateral deflection, on a straight stretch of track, and I imagine any fairly modern carriages would have stayed upright. "Everyone" was apparently only four passengers ("customers") plus crew, on a six car train!

randyrippley · 22 Mar 2024

this BBC article doesn't say any more but has a couple of photos which make the location more understandable.
Looks like some of the sea wall stones were knocked out

Hole found under track where train derailed at Grange-over-Sands

Four passengers and four staff members were on board when the train derailed at Grange-over-Sands.

www.bbc.co.uk

A hole has been found underneath the track where a train derailed, the rail operator said.

The Northern train, with four passengers and four staff members on board, was travelling towards Barrow when it came off the tracks near Grange-over-Sands in Cumbria at about 06:00 GMT.

A witness described a "big cloud of smoke" at the scene as everyone was safely escorted from the train.

Chris Pye, infrastructure director for the North West route for Network Rail, said: “We’re still trying to understand exactly what’s happened but what we do know, so far, is that a hole was formed in the track – or just underneath the track – in the ballast and the earth underneath.

“As a result of that, that’s fallen away. The rails on top haven’t been held properly and the train’s derailed.”

Engineers discovered a void in the ground about 150m (492ft) away from the derailment location, which is unusual in its nature, Network Rail said.

Mr Pye said the hole could be situated over the culvert which runs off Grange golf course, which runs adjacent to the line.

1Z99 · 22 Mar 2024

D6130 said:
Maybe the tube conveying the control wire for the Grange Down Home signal....which, incidentally, doesn't appear to have been replaced to danger.

Grange signal box was switched out - hence the signal showing "off" and not being replaced.

stuving · 22 Mar 2024

Howardh said:
Saltwater marsh mainly, which will be exacerbated by high tides and the sheer volume of rain we've had over the last (goodness knows how many) months. It will be saturated alongside and under the tracks no doubt!

More than just that - NLS have some 6" maps from before the railway - though not this exact one, and four sheets meet just here. From the one to the north you can see that the railway was built straight across the marshes, and the earlier coastline ran north along Lindale Road and then east about 1 km north of the railway. What is now a stream east of Lindale Road followed the same course, but was a channel just offshore.

The embankment penned this water behind it, and its new engineered course was from the lake (now silted) to the west, exiting with a culvert beside the footbridge at Blawith Point. Now, a river flows through the ground beside and under it as well as its channel (though a lot slower, of course) So I imagine that this water will have continued to percolate under the material dumped on the channel bed, slowly taking it away grain by grain.

Eventually the water has a channel again, underground, and presumably the pipes were an attempt to let this water out and drain the formation. If a cavity has been formed down there, it will work its way upwards with time as a sink hole. Whether recent rainfall or the state of the culvert to the west have anything to do with this collapse isn't knowable now, though if the RAIB look into the hole they should find out.

PS: this was the river Winster, the main flow of which was diverted into a new channel to the east from roughly the old coastline. What now flows in the old course must be whatever still drains from the marsh and the landward side over its last mile or so.

D6130 · 22 Mar 2024

1Z99 said:
Grange signal box was switched out - hence the signal showing "off" and not being replaced.

Are you sure about that? From the photographs published so far, the Up Section Signal is clearly in the 'On' position....unless its wire was cut by the derailment, in which case it will have reverted to danger automatically due to its counterweight.

MisterSheeps · 22 Mar 2024

yorkspotter said:
From a historial perspective, a sink hole seems favourite ... way back in time (1892) the Furness Railway lost an entire locomotive down a sink hole which opened up in front of the crew ... it subsequently deepened and the loco disappeared from view ... don't know if it was ever recovered ... location cited as "Lindal" which seems to be about right and the apparent cause was collapsed mine workings ...

This was because of shaft collar collapse of old and inadequately covered haematite (iron ore) mine workings, is not relevant to this collapse. The book on the line, "Ulverstone and Lancaster Railway" describes how the line around the salt marshes was built by heaping sandy silt into an embankment and facing it with closely fitting limestone blocks. The method worked but was not really intended for regular inundation by the sea or rivers. Large parts of the sea facing embankment have been covered by concrete, though this is in an indifferent state in parts. It has been very wet this winter in this area.

thenorthern · 22 Mar 2024

There has been a lot of flooding on the Golf Course in Grange-over-Sands and floods in other areas of the town recently. I think that may have been a cause. There has been a lot of pumping machinery in the area recently.

DanNCL · 22 Mar 2024

Neptune said:
Absolutely nothing to do with the train in any way shape or form. I know there’s a huge anti-Northern rhetoric from some on here but that’s pushing it to a whole new level. Have you seen the track that caused it?

I don’t think anyone was suggesting the train caused it. It’s absolutely right however to say that how the train handled the derailment will be very closely studied - at first glance it seems it handled it very well.

Bletchleyite · 22 Mar 2024

DanNCL said:
I don’t think anyone was suggesting the train caused it. It’s absolutely right however to say that how the train handled the derailment will be very closely studied - at first glance it seems it handled it very well.

I think the wall has massively helped.

YorkRailFan · 22 Mar 2024

Network Rail has released a statement:

Rail passengers are being warned of major disruption between Lancaster and Barrow-in-Furness after a Northern train derailed.

Network Rail is working with multiple agencies to find out how the train came off the track at around 6am Friday morning (22 March).

Four passengers and four members of staff were safely evacuated from the train, but the railway will be closed for some time in both directions impacting all services between Lancaster and Barrow-in-Furness.

Passengers are urged to check National Rail Enquiries at www.nationalrail.co.uk as there will be a significant number of unavoidable cancellations over the coming days.As is standard practice with any train derailment, inspectors from the Rail Accident Investigation Branch will have to examine the scene before any efforts can be made to remove the train and make railway repairs.

Engineers have discovered a void in the ground has opened around 150m away from the derailment location, which is unusual in its nature. The team are working hard to investigate the cause. Ground conditions at the site are extremely wet.

Network Rail are also advising members of the public to stay away from the location to allow responders to carry out their work safely.Chris Pye, Network Rail’s North West route infrastructure director, said: “At around 6am this morning, a Northern train travelling towards Barrow derailed near Grange-over-Sands station. All passengers and staff have been safely escorted from the train.

“All lines through this area remain blocked meaning trains are currently unable to run between Barrow-in-Furness and Lancaster. “We're really sorry for the disruption. Passengers are encouraged to please check with Northern or National Rail Enquiries for the latest travel information including alternative travel arrangements.”Craig Harrop, regional director for Northern, said: “Earlier this morning, a Northern train travelling towards Barrow came off the tracks near Grange-over-Sands station. There were four customers and four Northern colleagues on board. Everyone been safely escorted from the train.“We are focusing on supporting colleagues and customers who were involved in the incident and on minimising the disruption this incident will cause to other services. We're working closely with Network Rail and others to understand more about what happened.

"No trains are running between Barrow-in-Furness and Lancaster and there will be significant disruption to our services in this area. Customers should look on our website or speak to a member of our team for more information."

Passengers warned of major disruption between Lancaster and Barrow-in-Furness

Rail passengers are being warned of major disruption between Lancaster and Barrow-in-Furness after a Northern train derailed.

www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk

Rail Replacement Bus services are operating between Lancaster and Barrow as a result of this.
The RAIB for their part have said:

RAIB has sent a team to the site of the derailment of a passenger train earlier this morning near Grange over Sands, #Cumbria. The team will gather evidence as part of a preliminary examination to help us decide whether or not an investigation will be launched.

https://twitter.com/raibgovuk/status/1771128507747238022?t=b2pkrkVJ9_aZybAjQis8hA&s=19

Deepgreen · 22 Mar 2024

Bletchleyite said:
I think the wall has massively helped.

Looking at the photos I don't even think the train touched the wall with more than a glancing blow and that was seemingly enough to shatter it. I would imagine it would only have helped slightly - it is low and probably only lightly mortared, if at all, and would offer little resistance to even a glancing blow from a toppling train.

DanNCL said:
I don’t think anyone was suggesting the train caused it. It’s absolutely right however to say that how the train handled the derailment will be very closely studied - at first glance it seems it handled it very well.

Indeed, but it was on straight, plain track - i.e. nothing to deflect it particularly to either side (a lucky element of the Walton-on-Thames derailment recently too). It's probably significantly bottom-heavy, too, with the engines under-slung.

mandub · 22 Mar 2024

Embankment just before New Mills Central is next to go.
It's 5mph at mo & fingers crossed

randyrippley · 22 Mar 2024

stuving said:
More than just that - NLS have some 6" maps from before the railway - though not this exact one, and four sheets meet just here. From the one to the north you can see that the railway was built straight across the marshes, and the earlier coastline ran north along Lindale Road and then east about 1 km north of the railway. What is now a stream east of Lindale Road followed the same course, but was a channel just offshore.

The embankment penned this water behind it, and its new engineered course was from the lake (now silted) to the west, exiting with a culvert beside the footbridge at Blawith Point. Now, a river flows through the ground beside and under it as well as its channel (though a lot slower, of course) So I imagine that this water will have continued to percolate under the material dumped on the channel bed, slowly taking it away grain by grain.

Eventually the water has a channel again, underground, and presumably the pipes were an attempt to let this water out and drain the formation. If a cavity has been formed down there, it will work its way upwards with time as a sink hole. Whether recent rainfall or the state of the culvert to the west have anything to do with this collapse isn't knowable now, though if the RAIB look into the hole they should find out.

PS: this was the river Winster, the main flow of which was diverted into a new channel to the east from roughly the old coastline. What now flows in the old course must be whatever still drains from the marsh and the landward side over its last mile or so.

And don't forget that a large part of that mossland has had its water table raised in the last ten years or so as part of a project to recreate the bogs as part of new nature reserves, along with major felling of alien conifers

InOban · 22 Mar 2024

westcoaster said:
Looking on Google maps,

Is the location between Grange golf course and the station, next to Meathop road.

Looks right to me. Can also see the tubing going to a pond/hole.

The pictures in posts #8and #14 clearly show a grassy meadow, not a salt marsh, so not there.

Bletchleyite · 22 Mar 2024

The salt marsh is mostly covered in grass and does look rather like a meadow at times. Grange seafront is particularly unusual - a promenade with what looks like a field rather than sea next to it.

king_walnut · 22 Mar 2024

172007 said:
Let's await the RAIB report shall we rather than jumping to conclusions.

Why is this said in every thread about every incident that happens?

How about, have an interesting discussion about the information that has been given by official and primary sources so far? There's nothing wrong with that whatsoever.

I find this to be pretty terrifying. The fact that this can just happen suddenly with no warning and the absolute luck involved that nobody was seriously hurt or worse is crazy.

It'll be interesting to see if this was just a freak occurrence or if it is indeed down to the reduced maintenance. And also if this is the 'fix on failure' policy, if they're actually saving money on it .. this looks very expensive.

Bletchleyite · 22 Mar 2024

Here's a Google Maps link to a decent view of Grange "sea"front - looks similar to the photos above in terms of the "meadow".

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

Ben Anslow · 22 Mar 2024

Bletchleyite said:
Here's a Google Maps link to a decent view of Grange "sea"front - looks similar to the photos above in terms of the "meadow".

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

Yep caused by tidal shifts same where I live in Silverdale patches move and shift there is a possibility that tidal shifts and flooding contributed to the failing structure time will tell

edwin_m · 22 Mar 2024

king_walnut said:
Why is this said in every thread about every incident that happens?

How about, have an interesting discussion about the information that has been given by official and primary sources so far? There's nothing wrong with that whatsoever.

I'd say it was OK to talk about the immediate cause but not about who might be to blame.

Pinus contorta · 22 Mar 2024

Bletchleyite said:
The salt marsh is mostly covered in grass and does look rather like a meadow at times. Grange seafront is particularly unusual - a promenade with what looks like a field rather than sea next to

Spartina grass. Locals have been complaining about it for donkeys years. One suggestion was the Morecambe promenade sea defence along from the Midland Hotel caused the Channel of the River to change and the tidal scouring of the area you mentioned dramatically altered over time.

tpfx89 · 22 Mar 2024

edwin_m said:
I'd say it was OK to talk about the immediate cause but not about who might be to blame.

I'm very much on the fence about it, it's one thing to discuss what's viable and potential reasons, and another for those theories to be touted as absolute truths prior to anything official being announced.

I think healthy debate is absolutely OK at this stage as long as the finger-waggling is kept out of it!

PyrahnaRanger · 22 Mar 2024

DarloRich said:
that wall looks fortuitously placed!

Bletchleyite said:
I think the wall has massively helped.

From some of the pictures floating around local Facebook groups, it looks like it’s struck the wall and knocked some of the top stones off and down the bank towards the sea. Not sure from looking if it’s held it in place or not.

trebor79 said:
Crikey, looks like most of the vehicles fully derailed. Bet that was exciting for a little while. But it really is testament to modern standards that everyone walked away. I know people miss old stock for a variety of reasons, but this is the kind of accident which would have resulted in coaches being smashed to matchsticks and people inside mashed up in the past.

The bit that looks odd is that the front three coaches are all derailed, but the rear three seem to be absolutely fine!

Derailment near Grange Over Sands

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