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ASLEF strikes 5th-8th April weekend

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DJP78

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The reality for many of us is that we now work from home several days a week. The days we are in the office driving or catching the train are equal options. Strike for a month and we'll either work from hoke for more days or drive. The reasons the strikes have had little public profile is that they really do impact life much less than even five years ago.
This notion that the strikes have limited effect doesn’t really stand up to scrutiny

It’s estimated that the retail & hospitality sector might have lost as much as £5 billion in revenue as a direct result of the railway strikes

Add to that the millions of journeys still being made by people who don’t have the option to WFH.

Anyway, I’m not in favour of a month long strike. I’m extremely conscious that the our passengers are inconvenienced enough as it is, with the sporadic strikes to date.

What I do think is that the Tory gov have behaved reprehensibly throughout the dispute. Aggressive and disparaging rhetoric at the outset, followed by over-reaching meddling driven by their extreme ideology.

ASLEF members have voted overwhelmingly to strike. We the members know precisely the offer on the table. If we thought the offer looked reasonable, we wouldn’t mandate to strike.

ASLEF have a negotiating team who act on behalf of the members. The deal isn’t acceptable to the senior ASLEF negotiators.

Either the Tories get out of the way and allow DFT & RDG to finalise their negotiations with ASLEF, without Tory interference or this dispute will continue until a likely change of Gov
 
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newtownmgr

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DafT or the operators would have made financial provision in their accounts for backpay but of course it won't necessarily be at the level of any future settlement but it will avoid an outright bombshell on the finances. This year, for example, DafT have had to stump significant extra cash to HS2 due to cost plus contracts they are on and found the cash.

Maybe not but they've made no secret of rowing back on many of the Torys employment policies so not sure they would be overtly worried about pay levels. However, no party will want to be seen as being held to ransom so one would hope Haigh and Whelan are working behind teh scenes now on a deal that Reeves will underwrite.

Separately Merriman mention in the HoC on Transport topical questions last Thursday that he sitting down with Whelan


This was in the context of an AWC agreement over only doing one round trip on nay route but you can't not see the wider dispute being discussed and where the path for a solution lies from both camps.
Text from ASLEF states the meeting is only in regard to AWC & LNER. Basically i think Merriman has been sent to apologise & reach agreements after he made false allegations in the transport select committee. Whether this leads to wider talks i doubt it.
 

skyhigh

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Yet it is literally a free roll of the dice, your situation won't be any worse for taking the ballot, making that counter offer and seeing what they come back with. Seriously, what about that is so worrying that everyone pushes back against it?
Because it enables a precedent where the DfT can demand a ballot which ASLEF has to pay for.

So ASLEF run a ballot, DfT then revise the pay offer by 0.1% and then demand another ballot as it's a new offer. What then?

You yourself said it's clear DfT know the offer won't be accepted. They are clearly negotiating from a position of bad faith and stalling the process.
 

greyman42

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As an ASLEF member I wouldn’t want to be balloted on a deal the leadership doesn’t endorse, when it’s obvious that it would make no difference anyway.
I would have thought that members would be able to make their own minds up on any deal that is offered without having to look to ASLEF for guidance.
 

FR510

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What speaks volumes to me is that every other train operator (whether that be open access, freight, Scotrail, TFW, TFL etc) have reached a fair and sensible offer for their drivers which hasn't trashed the Ts and Cs.

Except of course the operators which are controlled by the DfT.

What more is there to say
 

island

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It’s been explained already.

Arranging a ballot on the offer costs ASLEF a lot of money. The offer is inevitably rejected by the membership.
The RDG/DfT revises its offer by 0.1% and demands another ballot. ASLEF then incurs yet another significant cost and the RDG/DfT can get a few months of no industrial action whilst its voted on.
Ballots on offers don't need to be run by post, they can be done online so are an order of magnitude cheaper than strike ballots.
It’s been talked about at my place that ASLEF should put the offer out to ballot. It’s the only way that any progress could possibly be made.
I agree, but,..
A near 100% rejection would send a stronger message back than a fifth vote for industrial action.
I would be surprised if that was what came back.
It's pretty clear the government isn't the slightest bit interested in moving their position to help resolve the dispute before an election, given all the other stuff they've promised and haven't delivered yet.

If Labour get in as expected, it's just another headache for them to deal with, so win-win for the government on that front

In the meantime, I guess ASLEF have to do some minimal action just to remind everyone that there's still a dispute.
The government thinks (whether rightly or wrongly I do not comment) that there is not enough public support for the strikes and that they will not win many votes from conceding.
Is that why at some TOCs so few trains run on strike days? Govia Thameink Railway being one.
Each TOC varies quite widely as to what level of management staff with the right competencies/non-union staff/strike-breakers they might have available to work on strike days.
I would have thought that members would be able to make their own minds up on any deal that is offered without having to look to ASLEF for guidance.
Indeed. Members may have less of a desire than ASLEF to give the Government a bloody nose, and may feel that the offer on the table is acceptable to them.
 

DJP78

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I would have thought that members would be able to make their own minds up on any deal that is offered without having to look to ASLEF for guidance.
I understand what you’re saying, but sometimes the devil is in the detail. Vague or ambiguous wording in agreements can later be used to enforce detrimental working practices. The members broadly understand the changes affecting them, but it is often useful to hear what unintended consequences could befall the workforce.

My experience to date is that local union reps on ASLEF are pretty pragmatic in scrutinising offers & deals. They’re not half as militant or obstructive as the politicians and certain sections of the press would have the public believe.
 

Bantamzen

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Because it enables a precedent where the DfT can demand a ballot which ASLEF has to pay for.

So ASLEF run a ballot, DfT then revise the pay offer by 0.1% and then demand another ballot as it's a new offer. What then?

You yourself said it's clear DfT know the offer won't be accepted. They are clearly negotiating from a position of bad faith and stalling the process.
To quote John McLaine from the film Die Hard, "Welcome to the party pal!". As I mentioned upthread, that precedent has long existed in the public sector in times of dispute.

But regardless of that precedent, what actually is wrong with taking the offer to the members? Having a rule that states that major union decisions, such as pay / T&C terms can be made by the executive and thereafter not be passed to the members seems wrong for so many reasons. Unions are not governments, they are collectives of workers to protect themselves from employers. When it comes to the big decisions, the members should always have their say. And this is a big decision, because it is blocking any move forward.

So I ask again, what is wrong about the union being proactive and using a ballot to then push for a similar deal brokered by the RMT?
 

Goldfish62

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This notion that the strikes have limited effect doesn’t really stand up to scrutiny
The only effect that matters with strike action is to force the employer to make an improved offer that's acceptable to members and in that respect the past couple of years have been a complete failure so far.
 

irish_rail

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To quote John McLaine from the film Die Hard, "Welcome to the party pal!". As I mentioned upthread, that precedent has long existed in the public sector in times of dispute.

But regardless of that precedent, what actually is wrong with taking the offer to the members? Having a rule that states that major union decisions, such as pay / T&C terms can be made by the executive and thereafter not be passed to the members seems wrong for so many reasons. Unions are not governments, they are collectives of workers to protect themselves from employers. When it comes to the big decisions, the members should always have their say. And this is a big decision, because it is blocking any move forward.

So I ask again, what is wrong about the union being proactive and using a ballot to then push for a similar deal brokered by the RMT?
One big issue with putting the deal to the members is that when it is rejected the right wing press will go down the whole "greedy train drivers reject" narrative. Why should Aslef put their members into that position. I for one am borderline offended by the way train drivers are portrayed in the media, and putting us in a position to reject a deal that the press would spin as good wouldn't be wise. Aslef have got it right, and their continued support from drivers proves this.
 

DJP78

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The government thinks (whether rightly or wrongly I do not comment) that there is not enough public support for the strikes and that they will not win many votes from conceding.
I think the Gov initially gambled on being able to wrestle the public narrative on industrial action and have been outflanked by a superlative performance from, in particular, Mick Lynch (RMT) and a mild tempered Mick Whelan. Gone are the days of the vociferous union leaders. And, the public understand only too well, having witnessed 14 years of ideologically driven austerity, why we are taking industrial action to protect our industry.

There’s been no mass public backlash, supported by broadly flat polling, and it’s more the Tories that look isolated. Not ASLEF

I’d also point out that it’s always trickier to win the hearts & minds when a dispute is geared towards defending strong T’s & C’s. It’s always a more righteous fight to win a campaign from a position of weakness. Everyone loves an underdog eh?

We are not underdogs, we have fair and reasonable T’s & C’s IMHO and a strong union. That puts us in the firing line of the have-nots, anti-unionists, Tories and their pals in certain sections of the media (not mentioning Murdoch)

Indeed. Members may have less of a desire than ASLEF to give the Government a bloody nose, and may feel that the offer on the table is acceptable to them.
If that were the case, the results of the industrial action ballots would have surely reflected that potential apathy you speculate on.

Given the continued overwhelming strike mandates being secured via democratic vote, I would suggest the members of ASLEF feel otherwise

What speaks volumes to me is that every other train operator (whether that be open access, freight, Scotrail, TFW, TFL etc) have reached a fair and sensible offer for their drivers which hasn't trashed the Ts and Cs.

Except of course the operators which are controlled by the DfT.

What more is there to say
Precisely. Agreements are there to be reached. It’s well within reach. Am I right in saying that ASLEF reached a technical agreement in pronciple, on multiple occasions, with the DFT & RDG, only for those agreements to be vandalised at the 11th hr due to direct interference by the Tory government??

Seems to me the common denominator in the dispute is the gov
 
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Bantamzen

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One big issue with putting the deal to the members is that when it is rejected the right wing press will go down the whole "greedy train drivers reject" narrative. Why should Aslef put their members into that position. I for one am borderline offended by the way train drivers are portrayed in the media, and putting us in a position to reject a deal that the press would spin as good wouldn't be wise. Aslef have got it right, and their continued support from drivers proves this.
I am going to say something that will surprise some people on here that think I am anti-union, anti-rail staff (they are completely wrong BTW). I don't like the way drivers are portrayed in the right wing media, just as I don't like the way they portray other workers, people on benefits, people who don't read their trash, etc, etc..

But that is no reason not to ballot on the deal. What the Daily Wail thinks is of no relevance. Having a ballot on the deal, not industrial action because there is no new deal, but on the 2023 deal that has been gathering dust puts the ball firmly back in RDG / DfT territory. And aside from the cost of running it (which they will have to do anyway to renew future action), there is no negative to be had for ASLEF. Like I said, its basically a free roll of the dice.
 

ComUtoR

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So I ask again, what is wrong about the union being proactive and using a ballot to then push for a similar deal brokered by the RMT?

Why should the Union be the ones to bend first ?

ASLEF and it's members are well aware of what would be amenable and what red lines have been crossed. The Gov also knows what conditions went too far. The Gov know this could be resolved in seconds. Why shouldn't it be the Gov who makes the first move ? "Here is the offer, we will never change it" is not negotiation. If the end result is the same offer as the RMT, then stuck that on the table and stop the pointless brinkmanship and entrenchment.
 

island

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And aside from the cost of running it (which they will have to do anyway to renew future action), there is no negative to be had for ASLEF. Like I said, its basically a free roll of the dice.
As I said earlier, the cost of running a ballot on the deal is not a lot, because it can be done online.

The Gov know this could be resolved in seconds. Why shouldn't it be the Gov who makes the first move ? "Here is the offer, we will never change it" is not negotiation. If the end result is the same offer as the RMT, then stuck that on the table and stop the pointless brinkmanship and entrenchment.
You could say the exact same to the union with a few words swapped.
 

DJP78

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You could say the exact same to the union with a few words swapped.
ASLEF are abiding by collective bargaining protocols. This is how things work. Gov know this and they can’t just behave like children because they don’t like the process and have had their egos slapped.

The onus, not just morally, is on the Gov to re-enter talks
 

Bantamzen

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Why should the Union be the ones to bend first ?

ASLEF and it's members are well aware of what would be amenable and what red lines have been crossed. The Gov also knows what conditions went too far. The Gov know this could be resolved in seconds. Why shouldn't it be the Gov who makes the first move ? "Here is the offer, we will never change it" is not negotiation. If the end result is the same offer as the RMT, then stuck that on the table and stop the pointless brinkmanship and entrenchment.
Why? Because at this juncture it should be obvious that the government is not for moving. But moreover another rail union has been able to navigate through to an agreement, one that got their members the backpay without strings. Unions do not exist simply to fight governments over technicalities. Unions should be doing what is best for their members, and as I've highlighted in my previous posts there is a possible way for ASLEF to move forward on behalf of their members.

So just to reiterate, the RMT were able to cut a no strings deal that brought their pay deals up to date. If they can, why is it so difficult for ASLEF?
 

43066

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We haven’t had movement on negotiations for how long? If ASLEF are going to persist with their current strategy we may as well not strike.

Occasional strikes keep the dispute alive and present in the media. That is bad for the government as it highlights their continuing failure to resolve the dispute. They’re also financially sustainable for the members.

The government have set an exact stipulation for the offer and any future negotiations. ASLEF have a rule that they cannot take an executive decision back to the members. Neither side will budge, both are as bad as each other quite frankly.

The government has acted in bad faith throughout, so there’s no reason to suppose having ballot would magically move things forward, and it’s certainly not for them to dictate to ASLEF how it responds to any particular offer.

The fact you claim not to see at any difference between this dishonest and incompetent government and ASLEF, and spend all your time criticising ASLEF, speaks volumes. It’s clear from your (many) posts on the subject that you’re completely biased against the union for whatever reason, and have been throughout this dispute.

But this is isn't about blaming anyone, well at least not from my point of view. Its about trying to find a way through it. ASLEF could, as I described above, at least shift the process on a bit. But they won't, and members on here seem to think this is the right way to go. Yet it is literally a free roll of the dice, your situation won't be any worse for taking the ballot, making that counter offer and seeing what they come back with. Seriously, what about that is so worrying that everyone pushes back against it?

ASLEF’s position has been clearly stated - you will obviously disagree with it by default. However the ASLEF membership’s views are the only ones that matter and I’m personally, along with most of the membership, perfectly happy with their current approach.

This notion that the strikes have limited effect doesn’t really stand up to scrutiny

It’s estimated that the retail & hospitality sector might have lost as much as £5 billion in revenue as a direct result of the railway strikes

Add to that the millions of journeys still being made by people who don’t have the option to WFH.

Anyway, I’m not in favour of a month long strike. I’m extremely conscious that the our passengers are inconvenienced enough as it is, with the sporadic strikes to date.

What I do think is that the Tory gov have behaved reprehensibly throughout the dispute. Aggressive and disparaging rhetoric at the outset, followed by over-reaching meddling driven by their extreme ideology.

ASLEF members have voted overwhelmingly to strike. We the members know precisely the offer on the table. If we thought the offer looked reasonable, we wouldn’t mandate to strike.

ASLEF have a negotiating team who act on behalf of the members. The deal isn’t acceptable to the senior ASLEF negotiators.

Either the Tories get out of the way and allow DFT & RDG to finalise their negotiations with ASLEF, without Tory interference or this dispute will continue until a likely change of Gov

Absolutely.

I would have thought that members would be able to make their own minds up on any deal that is offered without having to look to ASLEF for guidance.

They can and they have. That’s why they’ve showed overwhelming support for continuing action. If ASLEF ballot on every single deal offered they aren’t performing their role, and there would be nothing to stop the government making endless tiny changes and insisting on a re ballot every time.

This has all been explained many, many times.

Indeed. Members may have less of a desire than ASLEF to give the Government a bloody nose, and may feel that the offer on the table is acceptable to them.

This raised a smile :D. How many ASLEF members do you actually know? This dispute isn’t about “giving the government a bloody nose”; that’s something you have just made up. In fact the above post is just regurgitating the standard right wing tropes of evil union leaders leading their hapless members over a cliff, and pretending that the will of the union is somehow separate and distinct from that of its members.

The only effect that matters with strike action is to force the employer to make an improved offer that's acceptable to members and in that respect the past couple of years have been a complete failure so far.

The government have also completely failed to get their changes through, and are now rapidly running out of time. If we get to the end of this with current Ts and Cs intact, and then end up with a reasonable pay offer (with a chunk of back pay) that will be a big win.

I think the Gov initially gambled on being able to wrestle the public narrative on industrial action and have been outflanked by a superlative performance from, in particular, Mick Lynch (RMT) and a mild tempered Mick Whelan. Gone are the days of the vociferous union leaders. And, the public understand only too well, having witnessed 14 years of ideologically driven austerity, why we are taking industrial action to protect our industry.

There’s been no mass public backlash, supported by broadly flat polling, and it’s more the Tories that look isolated. Not ASLEF

I’d also point out that it’s always trickier to win the hearts & minds when a dispute is geared towards defending strong T’s & C’s. It’s always a more righteous fight to win a campaign from a position of weakness. Everyone loves an underdog eh?

We are not underdogs, we have fair and reasonable T’s & C’s IMHO and a strong union.


If that were the case, the results of the industrial action ballots would have surely reflected that potential apathy you speculate on.

Given the continued overwhelming strike mandates being secured via democratic vote, I would suggest the members of ASLEF feel otherwise


Precisely. Agreements are there to be reached. It’s well within reach. Am I right in saying that ASLEF reached a technical agreement in pronciple, on multiple occasions, with the DFT & RDG, only for those agreements to be vandalised at the 11th hr due to direct interference by the Tory government??

Seems to me the common denominator in the dispute is the gov

Excellent post.

You could say the exact same to the union with a few words swapped.

Well, no. Because there’s absolutely nothing to suggest a ballot against the previous offer would change the government’s approach; they would simply find another excuse. Until they decide to stop standing in the way of a negotiated solution absolutely nothing will change.
 

DJP78

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Why? Because at this juncture it should be obvious that the government is not for moving. But moreover another rail union has been able to navigate through to an agreement, one that got their members the backpay without strings. Unions do not exist simply to fight governments over technicalities. Unions should be doing what is best for their members, and as I've highlighted in my previous posts there is a possible way for ASLEF to move forward on behalf of their members.

So just to reiterate, the RMT were able to cut a no strings deal that brought their pay deals up to date. If they can, why is it so difficult for ASLEF?
Bit naughty of you Bantamzen. I’ve seen in other threads that the difference between RMT offer and ASLEF was pointed out to you

For the sake of clarity. RMT voted on a no-strings-attached pay offer with the guarantee of further talks. Couple of further points needed. The RMT dispute is far from over, just a temporary cessation of hostility while talks continue. It’s obvious that RMT were going to vote for for this, as it’s unconditional!

ASLEF have not had an unconditional offer on which to vote.

Your comparison is therefore disingenuous and misleading.

I’d let you off if you weren’t aware. But you’ve been told this on numerous occasions which renders you frankly mischievous
 

Bantamzen

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Bit naughty of you Bantamzen. I’ve seen in other threads that the difference between RMT offer and ASLEF was pointed out to you

For the sake of clarity. RMT voted on a no-strings-attached pay offer with the guarantee of further talks. Couple of further points needed. The RMT dispute is far from over, just a temporary cessation of hostility while talks continue. It’s obvious that RMT were going to vote for for this, as it’s unconditional!

ASLEF have not had an unconditional offer on which to vote.

Your comparison is therefore disingenuous and misleading.

I’d let you off if you weren’t aware. But you’ve been told this on numerous occasions which renders you frankly mischievous
No not naughty at all. I'm very aware that the RMT deal only brought them up to date with the pay deals, with lots of problems ahead. However I am also aware, as should you be, that the deal on the table to ASLEF has the condition that the members, not the executive vote on it. Rightly or wrongly, that is the position. And ASLEF refuse to take it to the members.

I'm sorry, but that is the situation
 

DJP78

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No not naughty at all. I'm very aware that the RMT deal only brought them up to date with the pay deals, with lots of problems ahead. However I am also aware, as should you be, that the deal on the table to ASLEF has the condition that the members, not the executive vote on it. Rightly or wrongly, that is the position. And ASLEF refuse to take it to the members.

I'm sorry, but that is the situation
Rightly

Those are the powers bestowed on our senior negotiating team. ASLEF are not outside their legal remit here.

Else, the offer would legally HAVE to be put to the members
 

harz99

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Bit naughty of you Bantamzen. I’ve seen in other threads that the difference between RMT offer and ASLEF was pointed out to you

For the sake of clarity. RMT voted on a no-strings-attached pay offer with the guarantee of further talks. Couple of further points needed. The RMT dispute is far from over, just a temporary cessation of hostility while talks continue. It’s obvious that RMT were going to vote for for this, as it’s unconditional!

ASLEF have not had an unconditional offer on which to vote.

Your comparison is therefore disingenuous and misleading.

I’d let you off if you weren’t aware. But you’ve been told this on numerous occasions which renders you frankly mischievous
I think you need to go back further beyond " RMT voted on a no-strings attached pay offer" and examine how that no strings offer was arrived at in the first place...then you will likely have the reason why ASLEF haven't had the same, or a similar, unconditional offer to vote on.
 

paul1609

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Because the amount it would cost the economy billions plus the amount the government would have to hand over to TOCs in compensation.
Im sceptical that it does actually cost the economy billions anymore. Maybe some hospitality in city centres gets rescheduled, thats about it. The days of the lights going out because the powers stations ran out of coal are long since gone. The vast majority of journeys just go by road or are rescheduled now.
As for the TOCs dont they just get their management fee regardless?
 

Krokodil

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Don't know about GTR, but aren't some operators eg Government run Northern actively increasing staffing to reduce reliance on overtime, eg Northern recruiting for over 300 roles
They won't be trained overnight.
 

DJP78

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I think you need to go back further beyond " RMT voted on a no-strings attached pay offer" and examine how that no strings offer was arrived at in the first place...then you will likely have the reason why ASLEF haven't had the same, or a similar, unconditional offer to vote on.
Humiliating ticket office debacle seemed to coincide with RMT talks recommencing

Biggest difference, the Gov simply sat down with RMT and compromised
 

43066

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Rightly

Those are the powers bestowed on our senior negotiating team. ASLEF are not outside their legal remit here.

Else, the offer would legally HAVE to be put to the members

Yep. And if the members weren’t happy with any aspect of the union’s constitutional arrangements they could be changed. There’s absolutely no evidence of that, however.
 

spyinthesky

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No not naughty at all. I'm very aware that the RMT deal only brought them up to date with the pay deals, with lots of problems ahead. However I am also aware, as should you be, that the deal on the table to ASLEF has the condition that the members, not the executive vote on it. Rightly or wrongly, that is the position. And ASLEF refuse to take it to the members.

I'm sorry, but that is the situation
At no time do I see your posts as biased towards anyone. Just facts that nobody seems to like.
I see why people don’t get your points as they are obviously biased towards ASLEF.
I hope the wall you are banging your head against isn’t too hard.
 

whoosh

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The government have set an exact stipulation for the offer and any future negotiations. ASLEF have a rule that they cannot take an executive decision back to the members. Neither side will budge, both are as bad as each other quite frankly.

But this is isn't about blaming anyone, well at least not from my point of view. Its about trying to find a way through it. ASLEF could, as I described above, at least shift the process on a bit. But they won't, and members on here seem to think this is the right way to go. Yet it is literally a free roll of the dice, your situation won't be any worse for taking the ballot, making that counter offer and seeing what they come back with. Seriously, what about that is so worrying that everyone pushes back against it?

The Government have moved the RMT grades to a fixed no strings offer for year one (2022), and year two (2023) will be negotiated on TOC by TOC basis for changes to T&Cs, rather than 'one size fits all'.

They chose to change the second year to a more reasonable offer to halt RMT action and chose NOT to do the same with ASLEF to leave the 'greedy train drivers' out on a limb to then enact the Minimum Service Levels.

That's what this is all about. The entire rail industry was provoked into strike action, it was really inconvenient, a solution (that was in their Manifesto!) was pushed through (with less opposition than if their had been no dispute), and now they just have to enact it with the 'greedy drivers' who are the only ones who haven't settled yet (because unlike the RMT, they still have a 'one size fits all' offer).

If ASLEF were to spend money putting an unacceptable deal to a vote, then the government would conjour up something else to stall things.
Just cast your mind back to 2022 - for the ENTIRE YEAR ASLEF were asking for meetings about pay, and being ignored; Cast your mind back to January 2023 - the first offer (5% year one, 4% year two with loads of strings) unnegotiated before any meetings and sent to the media first (who of course pitched it as 9%, playing down it was over two years, and didn't mention the strings).
Then meetings, things looking up, then a worse offer. 4% year one (A reduction. Remember, there's no strings in year one in either the first or second offer, so there's no need for a reduction in year one - other than to provoke), 4% year two with loads of strings still.

Then the settlement with RMT last December, which everyone from the layman bystander to industry expert says would settle the ASLEF dispute as well.

But no.

The government wants to ride to the rescue and enforce Minimum Service Levels, and having invested so much into this now (including suppressing growth in the industry and the general economy by doing so) are reluctant to back down. They will conjour up another stumbling block as they dont want to just back down and settle. They want MSLs.

But having been warned that their introduction will only cause prolonged disruption, and the TOCs don't want them because of this, it might well just drag on until the election, with government blaming the TOCs for not using the law it has provided.

If MSLs do happen, it's going to be interesting as Network Rail and whoever are Fleet Maintainers are going to be shelling out a pretty penny on every delay caused by every little niggling fault on one of those days.
Perhaps another reason why they haven't been implemented?

We need a change of Government to get through this impasse, because, in short, you can't negotiate with someone who won't talk and who makes a worse offer on the rare occasion you do, and who makes out that you are awkward because you are the only one who hasn't settled yet, but refuses to even consider making you the same as what it took the others to settle.

This Government do not want this settled.
 

12LDA28C

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Don't know about GTR, but aren't some operators eg Government run Northern actively increasing staffing to reduce reliance on overtime, eg Northern recruiting for over 300 roles


108 drivers doesn't sound like very many for a TOC the size of Northern. I'd be surprised if that would even cover drivers moving to another employer or retiring over a period of much more than a year or two. Reliance on Rest Day Working and overtime will be as strong as ever, assuming of course a RDW agreement is in place.
 

VP185

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As I said earlier, the cost of running a ballot on the deal is not a lot, because it can be done online.

It can‘t be done online for the same reasons we don’t vote in General Elections online.
 

Bantamzen

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At no time do I see your posts as biased towards anyone. Just facts that nobody seems to like.
I see why people don’t get your points as they are obviously biased towards ASLEF.
I hope the wall you are banging your head against isn’t too hard.
Ha ha, don't worry, I'm into heavy metal so head banging is practically a lifestyle to me. :D

But you are right, the facts are what they are. The blocker is the government's insistence on a members voting, and ASLEF's executive making the decision on the offer & not looking for a way to get it to the members. However I still can't quite understand the resistance from ASLEF members to having a ballot on the offer, as it will have no detrimental effect on them or the union, but might enable progress. Its a chance for the union to get onto the front foot as far as I can see.
 
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