£2 fare - but what next?

For Central Government, I expect the exit strategy will be to calculate the expenditure of the £2 fare scheme in each Local Transport Authority area and give that as a grant to the LTA to spend how the locally elected Authority wishes? (ring fenced to public transport) Keeping fares low, or more services or a blend or whatever. Another step towards franchising everywhere.

Of course this may not be at the end of the current cap, which may be rolled over.

Tetchytyke said:

First used to charge £3.80 single from Queensbury to Halifax, a distance of about 3 miles, but their app (when it worked) did offer a flat fare ticket at £2. So there doesn’t need to be an exit strategy- the operator already offered fares at that rate.

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I do object to the fact that First were happy to make a £2 flat fare available on their app but have been able to receive a load of taxpayer money for *checks notes* making a £2 flat fare available.

I'm sure it's all above board legally bit it sticks in the throat when you see that First West Yorkshire took £4.9m in these subsidies for doing something they were already doing, enabling them to post an operating profit of £6.9m, yet they still felt the need to slash services and massacre the timetable.

https://find-and-update.company-inf...czMWFkaXF6a2N4/document?format=pdf&download=0 (apologies, unable to copy and paste the relevant section of the pdf on mobile but it's the early paragraphs of the business review section.

Next stage - multi-operator daily and weekly caps, valid on every participating bus operator within a defined metropolitan region, city council, unitary authority or demarcated conurbation (eg Blackpool, Fylde and Wyre council areas, or Harrogate-Knaresborough-Ripon)
Politically unpalatable would be changes to the senior persons concessionary terms, eg only allowing free travel within the resident's issuing concessionary authority's area

noddingdonkey said:

I do object to the fact that First were happy to make a £2 flat fare available on their app but have been able to receive a load of taxpayer money for *checks notes* making a £2 flat fare available.

I'm sure it's all above board legally bit it sticks in the throat when you see that First West Yorkshire took £4.9m in these subsidies for doing something they were already doing, enabling them to post an operating profit of £6.9m, yet they still felt the need to slash services and massacre the timetable.

https://find-and-update.company-inf...czMWFkaXF6a2N4/document?format=pdf&download=0 (apologies, unable to copy and paste the relevant section of the pdf on mobile but it's the early paragraphs of the business review section.

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I concur.

Maybe £2 isn't that cheap after all?

Of course it's incredibly good value if you're going from Blackburn to Manchester, say, but most people use buses to go a couple or three miles. Many journeys within towns require a change of bus and they generally cost £4 for a through journey under the cap, which is ridiculous. North American buses don't charge you double for the inconvenience of having to change buses. The railways don't charge extra for this. But for some reason UK bus passengers outside London are expected to put up with this.

I was part of a group of 8 people going from a pub to the football stadium in Rochdale yesterday. We only needed to take one bus but it would've been £16 for the 8 of us, whereas two taxis cost us £9. It strikes me the traffic around the ground would flow better if more people would take the bus rather than use private cars or taxis, but why would they?

I don't know what the bus fares in Rochdale were before the cap or what they would be if the cap were to be withdrawn, but imho they're already too high for groups and for anyone needing to transfer to complete their journey.

redreni said:

Of course it's incredibly good value if you're going from Blackburn to Manchester, say, but most people use buses to go a couple or three miles. Many journeys within towns require a change of bus and they generally cost £4 for a through journey under the cap, which is ridiculous. North American buses don't charge you double for the inconvenience of having to change buses. The railways don't charge extra for this. But for some reason UK bus passengers outside London are expected to put up with this.

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People often have to change buses but they may need to use another bus company's service to complete their journeys.
Unless an all-operator ticket is available it means a £2 penalty for changing buses and if you only want to travel in one direction that day you then don't have the benefit of a day ticket fare.
London's hopper fare is popular but the principle will only work in a franchised environment or where the area has a sole monopoly operator.

In West Yorkshire a £5 multi operator day ticket is available from Metro of £4.50 daily cap from First on TOTO.

redreni said:

I concur.

Maybe £2 isn't that cheap after all?

Of course it's incredibly good value if you're going from Blackburn to Manchester, say, but most people use buses to go a couple or three miles. Many journeys within towns require a change of bus and they generally cost £4 for a through journey under the cap, which is ridiculous. North American buses don't charge you double for the inconvenience of having to change buses. The railways don't charge extra for this. But for some reason UK bus passengers outside London are expected to put up with this.

I was part of a group of 8 people going from a pub to the football stadium in Rochdale yesterday. We only needed to take one bus but it would've been £16 for the 8 of us, whereas two taxis cost us £9. It strikes me the traffic around the ground would flow better if more people would take the bus rather than use private cars or taxis, but why would they?

I don't know what the bus fares in Rochdale were before the cap or what they would be if the cap were to be withdrawn, but imho they're already too high for groups and for anyone needing to transfer to complete their journey.

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In West Yorkshire First have a Group ticket for £8.75 for up to 5 people (£6 at weekends) valid throughout West Yorkshire and to Rochdale and Burnley.

noddingdonkey said:

In West Yorkshire a £5 multi operator day ticket is available from Metro of £4.50 daily cap from First on TOTO.

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Or if you buy 10 on the app, the multi-operator fare is £4.50.

noddingdonkey said:

In West Yorkshire a £5 multi operator day ticket is available from Metro of £4.50 daily cap from First on TOTO.

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Yeah and I bought a day ranger (bus & train) for (iirc) a tenner last time I was there. I was in Doncaster and needed to go to Halifax by train then to Headingly by train and then bus. The single to South Elmsall plus the Ranger cost less than a single to Leeds on LNER, but that's British public transport fares for you in a nutshell.

These sorts of tickets are great value for people making lots of journeys. They're okay value if you're making a few journeys. They're not particularly good value if you just want to nip across town for a zumba class and then come back (though I suppose the £5 could be better than a series of capped £2 singles if you need to change).

And that is part of the issue, that successive cuts to the network have led to a hub and spoke model so it's necessary to go into town to get to a neighbouring village.

gc4946 said:

Next stage - multi-operator daily and weekly caps, valid on every participating bus operator within a defined metropolitan region, city council, unitary authority or demarcated conurbation (eg Blackpool, Fylde and Wyre council areas, or Harrogate-Knaresborough-Ripon)
Politically unpalatable would be changes to the senior persons concessionary terms, eg only allowing free travel within the resident's issuing concessionary authority's area

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It would be good to know how many large urban areas don't already have a multi-operator ticket (not counting any where one operator has an effective monopoly).
Unitary authority is no longer a reliable indicator – North Yorkshire is now a unitary authority, and it is bludding huge!

Limiting the area of validity for ENCTS passes is something that I have considered in the past – I would be reluctant to do it solely on the issuing authority, because that would give huge differentials. Compare the usage that a resident in Rutland would have compared to a resident in North Yorkshire – it becomes a real postcode lottery. You would certainly need to allow some level of neighbouring areas – whether it's Rutland into Leicestershire, North Yorkshire into York, coverage across Greater Manchester or London, etc.
But before any such restriction was put forwards, I would want to see a rigorous impact analysis. How much money would it save? How much money would it raise? Would it lead to some routes becoming less sustainable, especially in areas popular with visitors, if fewer of those visitors were travelling by bus, and thereby leading to a degraded service for local residents? Would people switch to driving, would they change to just travelling more in their local area, or would they simply travel less? If they were driving more, what would be the impact on the road network. If they were travelling less, how would it affect business and tourism? What would be the impact on people's wellbeing, independence and engagement?
I've certainly heard that the BCR for ENCTS is very positive, when you take all of those factors into account, so any changes or reductions in scope would need to be considered very carefully to ensure any savings are not outweighed by negative consequential effects.

A York and North Yorkshire Combined Authority including powers for transport was established by order in 2023 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2023/1432/contents/made
so if ENCTS concessions were amended by government I'd hope that such powers would allow free travel to/from neighbouring concessionary authorities (Metro - West Yorkshire) eg travel on Arriva 164 from Selby to Leeds

Once again, this thread is for discussing what happens if and when the £2 fare cap scheme ends. It is not for discussing concessionary schemes and nor is it a general ticketing discussion. Please stay on topic.

Thank you

noddingdonkey said:

I do object to the fact that First were happy to make a £2 flat fare available on their app but have been able to receive a load of taxpayer money for *checks notes* making a £2 flat fare available.

I'm sure it's all above board legally bit it sticks in the throat when you see that First West Yorkshire took £4.9m in these subsidies for doing something they were already doing, enabling them to post an operating profit of £6.9m, yet they still felt the need to slash services and massacre the timetable.

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There was a good chance it was a promotional tactic - increase take-up of the app, and eventually when a lot of people are using it daily, start raising the fares again. Why? Reduces back office tasks at the depot, simplifies operations, speeds up boarding - and so on. Overall, reduces costs so they'll want as many people using it as possible.

Hence lower fairs.

£2 flat fare has probably scuppered their plans a little.

Of course the government could "help" with this by making £2 fares mobile dependent, and charge everyone else a higher rate. Hey, it's an exit strategy!

mangad said:

Of course the government could "help" with this by making £2 fares mobile dependent, and charge everyone else a higher rate. Hey, it's an exit strategy!

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My experience is that many people are using cash to pay for the £2 fares. It is a very convenient amount to be able to pay using the correct amount and not requiring change. If the flat fare was raised to a higher level, even £2.50, paying with the exact correct amount would not be so convenient and could slow down boarding with people requiring to be given change.

Certainly on my local routes boarding is very quick for people paying by cash with the correct money, as it is with those who pay non contact by card and those using ENCTS cards. The main reasons for slow boarding is often from people paying using their phones, who don’t have their phone ready for payment, and then stand fiddling with their phones holding everyone else up.

ChrisC said:

My experience is that many people are using cash to pay for the £2 fares.

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Interesting. I wonder if there's regional variation here? I haven't seen anyone pay cash for a bus fare in a very long time. Mostly it's free passes, for lone kids it's phones or passes, for adults it's a mix of card and phone. The main cash payers round here were the older people who now have free travel.

Given how much a permanent flat fare tap-in-only system would improve speed (and thus both operational cost and attractiveness) of the service, I wonder if some sort of Oyster a like chargeable at PayPoint/PayZone with cash is the way to go for those who don't wish to use actual payment cards. Cash transactions on board have huge disadvantages and do as you say result in big fare jumps, whereas it's better just to nudge it up by inflation (rounded to 5 or 10p) each year.

Bletchleyite said:

Interesting. I wonder if there's regional variation here?

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I think that there must be, because it certainly wasn't what I saw on the two very busy bus services I travelled on yesterday evening (both full and standing, even at 11pm!).

ChrisC said:

The main reasons for slow boarding is often from people paying using their phones

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I pay by phone, but the ticket machine is really rather slow to take payment. It is no different to paying by card if the phone is ready.

Bletchleyite said:

Interesting. I wonder if there's regional variation here? I haven't seen anyone pay cash for a bus fare in a very long time. Mostly it's free passes, for lone kids it's phones or passes, for adults it's a mix of card and phone. The main cash payers round here were the older people who now have free travel.

Given how much a permanent flat fare tap-in-only system would improve speed (and thus both operational cost and attractiveness) of the service, I wonder if some sort of Oyster a like chargeable at PayPoint/PayZone with cash is the way to go for those who don't wish to use actual payment cards. Cash transactions on board have huge disadvantages and do as you say result in big fare jumps, whereas it's better just to nudge it up by inflation (rounded to 5 or 10p) each year.

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I have certainly noticed more general regional disparities in the use of cash. On a couple of occasions when I have been without my ENCTS card I have found it much easier to take £2 in cash from my trouser pocket than to get out and open my wallet and select a card.

PeterC said:

I have certainly noticed more general regional disparities in the use of cash. On a couple of occasions when I have been without my ENCTS card I have found it much easier to take £2 in cash from my trouser pocket than to get out and open my wallet and select a card.

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That'll probably itself vary by preference for cash which does seem to be regional. I don't carry cash in my trouser pocket because I hardly ever use it, it's in my wallet too, so the time required to take out a card is lower than to count out a multiple coin cash payment from the coin part of my wallet.

Bletchleyite said:

Interesting. I wonder if there's regional variation here? I haven't seen anyone pay cash for a bus fare in a very long time. Mostly it's free passes, for lone kids it's phones or passes, for adults it's a mix of card and phone. The main cash payers round here were the older people who now have free travel..

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I think there are definitely regional variations in cash use, but around here I find it quite localised. Many of my local bus routes pass through some very affluent rural areas, but also within a few miles can also pass through some very depressed ex-mining communities. It is quite noticeable on my local route into Mansfield, that once the bus reaches the ex-mining areas, a large number of people are paying by cash. The £2 bus fares have really helped people in these areas and it would be greatly missed if fares were to return to their former levels. Passenger numbers are certainly higher than they were with more people making longer journeys, for example into Nottingham, which would have required an £8.50 day ticket.

Going a bit off subject I find that in the ex-mining communities around Mansfield, and along the Nottinghamshire and Derbyshire border, cash use is still very common in shops, pubs and especially on the local market stalls.

ChrisC said:

I think there are definitely regional variations in cash use, but around here I find it quite localised. Many of my local bus routes pass through some very affluent rural areas, but also within a few miles can also pass through some very depressed ex-mining communities. It is quite noticeable on my local route into Mansfield, that once the bus reaches the ex-mining areas, a large number of people are paying by cash. The £2 bus fares have really helped people in these areas and it would be greatly missed if fares were to return to their former levels. Passenger numbers are certainly higher than they were with more people making longer journeys, for example into Nottingham, which would have required an £8.50 day ticket.

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I think the chance of just going back where we were is quite low. It's been in place long enough now that it's become the norm, and to remove it now would hit the very poorest - those who can't afford a car - the worst. Nudging it up a bit is probably all that can realistically be done.

The headlines all over the redtops would be inescapable - "SCANDAL AS BUS FARES INCREASE BY 400%".

For the first few months it was a special offer - now it's just what people expect. Sticking it up to £2.10 or £2.20, or even £2.50, maybe. But a return to graduated fares where a poor rural location going into town and back might be heading for a tenner, no chance.

Bletchleyite said:

That'll probably itself vary by preference for cash which does seem to be regional. I don't carry cash in my trouser pocket because I hardly ever use it, it's in my wallet too, so the time required to take out a card is lower than to count out a multiple coin cash payment from the coin part of my wallet.

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In my area, where I travel on a fairly extensive selection of bus services, I think that about 20% of £2 fare payers do so by cash. Paying by phone/watch is usually slower than contactless card ( I also notice the phenomenon of people not having their phone ready on boarding - about as many as don't have their cash ready either!). Schoolchildren generally pay by card now.

I have heard it suggested, both in general circles and specific to the bus industry, that cash is still the preferred medium of payment for those on a limited budget. Essentially, cash is not there to help you spend, it's there to stop you spending: you have a finite amount, and when it runs out, there is no more. Plastic, by contrast, hides the cost of things.

If we remember (again) that the £2 fare was the bus passengers equivalent of "help for households", it perhaps isn't entirely surprising that those it was designed to help most are those paying by cash. Also (again), remember that there was a plan to increase it to £2.50 before the HS2 sofa money was found. As mentioned in the Safeguard element mentioned early in this thread, it is much more likely there will be a taper upwards, rather than many hundreds of percentage fare increases overnight.

Whilst there are occasional jokes about the "Rail UK Forums Minority" group that any small change will be inconvenient for, we also have to remember that what we see in our daily travels as "normal" isn't actually repeated across the country in blanket fashion.

Bletchleyite said:

Interesting. I wonder if there's regional variation here? I haven't seen anyone pay cash for a bus fare in a very long time. Mostly it's free passes, for lone kids it's phones or passes, for adults it's a mix of card and phone. The main cash payers round here were the older people who now have free travel.

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Same here. Not seen people using cash in what seems like forever. Every now and then you see a student (who could get discounted travel anyway on some of the buses) pulling out a £20 or even £50 and trying to pay with it - and either being allowed to travel for free, or gets told they can't pay with that*. Then they either magic up something smaller or pay with a card.

I am not sure whether that really counts as using cash, because clearly it's a clever stunt to try and get free travel. Who knows if the £50 is even real?!

* Uno used to give change vouchers, but it seems the new machines can't offer this - which seems like a step backwards. The other option would be to say 'I will take the £50 but can't give change'. Also how are so many students (wearing their lanyards, in case anyone wonders how I'm making assumptions) carrying £50 notes?!