I don't know? The GMCA press office maybe? The Mayor's office? And Joseph Tinman at MEN?
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Rail services to be included as part of Bee Network: how should this be achieved?
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norbitonflyer
Established Member
That's what I meant - I chose an ambiguous via point.
That's how it works in London, all trains are allowed, regardless of operator on the relevant routes, except HEx, HS1, and GatEx which have separate gatelines at one or both ends. But there are very few cross-London services, and contactless/Oyster is valid on all of them within the relevant zones
(Southern services to the WCML, Thameslink, Elizabeth Line are the only three I think). I have already mentioned the Reading-Gatwick anomaly: but if you were to touch in at one and out at t'other you would be charged a higher fare (as it would assume you had gone via Farringdon) than the fare on the direct route via Guildford
The London scheme already exists and operates without problems so I see no reason why Manchester's should fail to do the same.
All stations within the London scheme have been provided with actuators, including many extra ones at stations where passengers interchange between modes (typically national rail to tube or tram). Most of the London services by national rail operators such as SWR extend beyond the contactless zone. SWR trains play recorded announcements to the point of annoyance warning passengers approaching and at the final station where contactless payments are valid.
norbitonflyer
Established Member
A minor complication, that can't happen in London, is if there is a long distance operator running through the GM area who does not participate in the scheme but serves more than one station in the GM area. TransPennine, TfW, and East Midland through the Castlefield corridor (and on to the Airport) is the most obvious example. Other than HEx and HS1 (which have separate barrier lines at one end of the other), this is not the case in London. Either they operate some of the local services, (Anglia, GWR, SWR etc) or they operate none at all (Avanti's first stop is Watford Junction, but pick up only: East Midland and LNER don't stop until well outside London).
northwichcat
Established Member
Granting TfGM's requests for Hazel Grove improvements often come ahead of more pressing needs for other improvements already. However, I think it's partly due to pathing. If there's a path between Manchester and Stockport, it's likely it can be used to run to Hazel Grove but might not work for Macclesfield or Northwich.
northwichcat
Established Member
I would have thought the most obvious example is pretty much every service routed via Stockport stops there. That means XC, TfW, Avanti, EMR, TPE and Northern can all be used for local journeys within Greater Manchester. In the past Virgin had pick up and set down restrictions at Stockport, but they were removed when they went to 3tph and the additional paths came at the expense of local service cutbacks.
Yeah, if they end up introducing a ticketing system that only works on a subset of train operators it's going to be a godawful mess.
It would also be a downgrade compared to what we have today. Intermodal tickets in manchester are a bit of a mess at the moment, but those that are valid on rail are valid on all rail operators.
Well you simply don't allow them to non-participate
norbitonflyer
Established Member
Who is the "you" who can unilaterally change a TOC's contract? Not TfGM, certainly.
None of this going to be done without DfT agreement, so it will be the DfT doing the specification of what is going to be allowed and what is not. I would guess that there will be a desire not to include long distance express trains (however that may be defined) into the city area franchising scheme, to prevent short distance overcrowding by local passengers, and possibly 'split' ticketing opportunities?
At the moment that is the headline scheme - I doubt that the finer details have been fully considered yet, and I doubt that such details will prevent the scheme going ahead.
Is there any reason to think that people are any more likely to use them under a tap-in/tap-out system than they currently are using them for local journeys?
If the whole scheme (of integrated public transport in the area) is not designed to substantially increase use then it is not worth doing, is it? So, yes, there probably is reason to think that.
The solution is to make the valid on all operators.
I am reminded of the Annual Gold Card benefits, which is only valid on some operators and not others.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Mention of "Rochdale Stopping Services" implies it won't be valid on the Calder Valley trains that are first stop Rochdale*, also operated by Northern. So barring other operators won't do what they are seeking to achieve. Strong branding to distinguish the "Bee services" from the others might address this, but probably implies a dedicated fleet in Bee livery which must then be confined to a specific set of diagrams.
*and the term is open to wilful interpretation "this train stops at Rochdale, so it's a Rochdale stopping service"...
*and the term is open to wilful interpretation "this train stops at Rochdale, so it's a Rochdale stopping service"...
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I don't think it does, but it would need to be clear on the displays. This used to be done on the Merseyrail City Line and it's routinely done in Germany.
I suspect however it doesn't mean that, and it more means touch in/out devices would be provided at all stations to Rochdale.
norbitonflyer
Established Member
Indeed, that one is a bit inconsistent. Within the area covered it is valid on all operators that were formerly divisions of Network South East - so it includes Great Western (as that includes the former Thames Trains franchise) and Greater Anglia (Great Eastern and WAGN), but not EMT.
This also means, as I discovered recently, that even on an inter city service to Devon, if you have a Travelcard or Over 60 Oyster you can use a ticket from the Zone 6 boundary rather than pay from Paddington. You can do that on Thameslink, but not EMT or LNER.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
You can use a Boundary Zone 6 ticket on any TOC unless the Route field says otherwise (though they typically don't exist away from the former NSE area). That changed a while back. They originally only used to be valid on TOCs with two stops within Zones 1-6 (as these ones got Travelcard revenue) but that's no longer the case.
norbitonflyer
Established Member
I don't think that has ever been achieved with special local liveries. For example, as far as I am aware, only one DMU was ever painted in SYPTE livery, but it was not restricted to the Don Valley line (Sheffield / Doncaster) the only service that lay entirely within the PTE's area. Indeed, it was allocated to Lincoln depot. Here it is in West Yorkshire
That must be very recent. Only six months ago I was stopped at St Pancras EMT platforms for doing just that, on arrival from Luton Airport Parkway.
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PyrahnaRanger
Member
Was this not what happened with the 155s? I was under the (possibly mistaken) impression they stayed within the WYPTE area?
I also have vague memories of various 14x in Metro colours over there, and some 142s in Tyne and Wear yellow, causing great excitement when something so bright and colourful turned up at Carlisle! (Possibly not dedicated to an area, but certainly concentrated on it, admittedly)
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Not entirely inside the area, they often worked to Preston/Blackpool, though on services that were sponsored inside the area.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
The 155s, some 158s and local EMUs were painted in Metro colours, plus the 14x as you mention and some in GMPTE orange too. They all operated on services out of their respective areas. But none of them were used to differentiate services that a particular ticket would or wouldn't be valid on.
That's possible but there's still a risk that people will, for example, board a non-stop at Rochdale without knowing that's what it is, because they know all trains from that platform go to Manchester. That might be less likely if the stopping trains were Bee-branded and there was a campaign to emphasise the difference between the two.
Greybeard33
Established Member
The issue with Bee-branding the Rochdale stopping trains is that those services continue through Victoria to Blackburn and Clitheroe, and the portion of the route beyond Bolton is outside the GM Rail area. Similarly with the Airport stopping trains; half of them continue through Piccadilly to Liverpool (Merseyrail City Lines service group) and the other half continue past the Airport to Crewe, beyond the Alderley Edge GM Rail boundary.
Manchester and the Airport do not have the platform capacity to split these through services.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It's no more of an issue than London Overground to Watford or Merseyrail to Chester. By which I mean it isn't one.
Greybeard33
Established Member
But then what happens when Liverpool City Region want Merseyrail branding on the City Line trains, and Lancashire CC want their own branding too....
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Lancashire don't care about trains and never did, so I'd not worry there.
But if TfGM and LCR both want branding, just put both on! Helps of course that the base colour is yellow either way.
These things are not issues.
Quite.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
I think that's less of a problem, as it can be dealt with in the same way as London area does. Having to tell people they can only use certain trains between the same two places with the same operator strikes me as likely to lead to violations. Do the Rochdale non-stop services suffer with crowding anyway?
People here have very short memories! Strathclyde orange and black units ended up all over the place and nobody got terribly exercised over it...
norbitonflyer
Established Member
Only the diesel ones. The electric ones couldn't get out of Strathclyde until recently.