Can anyone explain why two fatalities to people sticking their heads out, on trains that presumably did have Central Door Locking, changed the ORR's assessment of the need for CDL on heritage stock?
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WCRC loses judicial review in High Court
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I don't really think that's the issue.
For whatever reason, the ORR has determined that CDL is required. We can argue until the cows come home whether that decision is "right" or not, but what we think is neither here nor there; it is the ORR's prerogative to frame the regulations. Moving on, what WCRC thinks is neither here nor there either. They have a duty to comply. They were granted a very generous exemption from the regulations (of approaching 20 years) which may have been extended even further (despite having being given ample notice that it would end in March 2023) had they complied with the mitigation measures they had agreed with the ORR. They didn't comply with those agreed measures and the ORR refused a further exemption. WCRC sought a judicial review of that decision based on five grounds and the High Court found all five grounds to be baseless.
Whether WCRC like it or not, Regulation 5 does exist and they are bound to comply unless the ORR agrees otherwise. The ORR did not agree otherwise and the High Court, after a very thorough investigation of all the facts, has found that decision to be lawful. The best thing WCRC can do is to move on and either get their Mk1 stock fitted with CDL or seek out other compliant stock if they do not. Their perpetual arguing this point is doing them no favours. They have yet again had to cancel bookings for their most popular offering.
They say on their latest news release that "We are working closely with the ORR to reach a speedy conclusion to this,...". I don't quite know what work they can undertake with the ORR as I think a conclusion has already been reached.
Back in the days just before Privatisation, I worked for the South Eastern division of NSE and maintained central records of Rolling Stock work done (or not). One cardinal rule was that any slam door stock operated up to 28 days maximum before undergoing a lock examination, to ensure the lock was safe and could not open unexpectedly. On one week, I found a unit had gone over 28 days and so I immediately went to S.E. Control and had to tell them to take this unit out of service immediately. It was found at Charing Cross in the height of the rush hour but there was no choice in the matter, they were the rules that had to be abided by. I was seriously unpopular but the rules had to be applied at all times without exception (the following morning a member of Control came up to my office shouting abuse and tried to punch me but my Manager got to him just before he struck and pulled him away with much shouting and struggling!!(by which time the whole of Floor 7 now knew about the issue!)). Naturally, many checks showed that I was fully correct in my actions in upholding the maintenance rules. Somebody (in a Depot I will not name) had to answer to not doing their job properly but saying that they had done the work).
This is not the same as CDL but I hope illustrates just how seriously BR took the issue of safety of slam door stock (at least on S.E. Division) back then.
As for WCRC, I am disgusted by many of the remarks on this thread supporting their appalling approach to safety.
Ed Chap
This is not the same as CDL but I hope illustrates just how seriously BR took the issue of safety of slam door stock (at least on S.E. Division) back then.
As for WCRC, I am disgusted by many of the remarks on this thread supporting their appalling approach to safety.
Ed Chap
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The vast majority of rail industry professionals completely agree with you.
Well said Ed Chap.
As they say in the legal profession, if the facts are against you argue the law, if the law is against you argue the facts, if both are against you start banging the table and flinging mud around.
What is: suggesting the ORR are picking on WCRC or even trying to put them out of business, if not slinging mud?
As they say in the legal profession, if the facts are against you argue the law, if the law is against you argue the facts, if both are against you start banging the table and flinging mud around.
What is: suggesting the ORR are picking on WCRC or even trying to put them out of business, if not slinging mud?
D1537
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I am good friends with two people who work for WCRC and even they would both agree with you. Their opinions on certain people higher up in the company would be unprintable here.
Falcon1200
Established Member
Not at all. WCRC safety lapses, including (but not only) on the Jacobite itself give rise to serious concerns about their ability and determination to abide by the rules.
anothertyke
Member
But that does not justify applying the CDL requirement to Vintage, SRPS, Belmond etc. The decision to do that must rest on sector-wide considerations.
And the decisions do: SRPS do not have an exemption and are seeking funding to fit CDL. As I understand it Vintage and Belmond exemptions are based around a plan to fit CDL.
Sounds a fairly level playing field to me.
renegademaster
Member
That makes no sense, those are window incidents , not ones related to door locking. Opening dropligts are allowed . The stock that West Coast currently use are mark 2s with CDL but their droplights still opening. And ironically, it's probably easier for window incidents to happen now as their is no need for stewards to linger in the doorway
ORR Havent got crucified for essentially doing nothing about the recent window related deaths nor the person who got killed being dragged by a tube train
And they are complying, the mark 1 stock isn't running, possibly ever again. And they are also using their freedom of speech to lobby their case to politicians. Even its ultimately fruitless it's still understandable when if not successful you got a good chance of a large number of your stock getting turnt into tin cans.
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I'm sure they would find new homes elsewhere - on or off of the mainline. But I don't see it coming to that.
To repeat what I said some pages ago - the normal tourists don't know or care about the differences between a mk1, 2 or 3. If it's got doors that swing open and are in a retro livery they are going to be happy. It's the puff puff Choo Choo on the front that they are there for, and even then when I saw the Jacobite once it was a black engine on the front, looking nothing like the Harry Potter loco.
The last footnote is that this is about WCRC running nationwide - not just on the WHL.
Enthusiast
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They had no choice and they've only complied by abandoning their most popular service. But not before they argued in the High Court that they should not be compelled to.
Breaking news, life is fatal! I could get knocked off my bike tomorrow. Not likely, but entirely possible. Won't stop me doing it though. As regards this thread, I haven't been on a loco hauled railtour for 10 years. So if WCR ceased to exist tomorrow it wouldn't bother me at all.
Would anyone use them? A batch of double decker buses in Cardiff had seatbelts. I never saw one used. Presumably standing would be banned if seatbelts were mandatory.
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Mountain Man
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Exactly. Let's be honest, I think they could even get away with some sliding doors Mk3 coaches.
If it's pulled by a steam engine and goes over Glenfinnan viaduct 99 percent of customers will be fine
Even if they can't hear the engine?
12LDA28C
Established Member
WCRC are not short of money and could easily afford the cost of fitment, their accounts are available to view online. I've seen nothing to suggest that operation of Mk1 stock on the main line is under threat.
A million in profit per year isn't a secure business case for fitting CDL to continue operation of the Jacobite? Ok.
Really? LSL use the standard BR system which is still in use with any TOC using for example Mk3 or Mk4 stock so that seems very unlikely.
People do use the ScotRail service which would become overwhelmed if the Jacobite did not run.
ORR most certainly aren't against having charter trans on the mainline network. What on earth would make you think they were? Heritage railways operate at a maximum speed of 25mph, if you weren't aware. Rather different from a charter train that could run on the mainline at 100mph.
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anothertyke
Member
Not without an extension of the track access agreement from its current expiry date of Oct 31 2024,no. Unfortunately life is complicated.
paul1609
Established Member
I have no feeling about WCRC and no connection to mainline railtours. However I believe there is a feeling that the exemptions of Regulation 4 will be revisited when they expire in March 2028.
Theres realistically no guarntee that Mark 1 rolling stock will be in use on the mainline from 1 April 2028. https://www.orr.gov.uk/guidance-com...lling-stock/mark-1-and-hinged-door-exemptions
12LDA28C
Established Member
Likewise. In my experience the people I know at the 'sharp end' do their job to the best of their ability, being professional railwaymen who take pride in their job. They are being let down by those at the top.
Why doesn't it? All operators of heritage stock on the main line have to abide by the same rules. End of story.
You don't think WCRC would apply for such an extension if they had stock fitted with CDL then?
No guarantee perhaps, but if the necessary crashworthiness modifications and CDL etc have been fitted, I wouldn't bet against Mk1s being permitted to operate on the main line well beyond that date. Even if March 2028 were the end, the prospect of a million in profit for the 2024, 2025, 2026 and 2027 seasons would surely be a good incentive to have fitted CDL by the start of this years' Jacobite operation, no?
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paul1609
Established Member
I think the general concensus is that the crashworthyness modifications arent economically viable. If you are going to fit cdl at this stage you are probably better off looking at later vehicles.
Gunslinger
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Perhaps the Jacobite paths could be reallocated to enable more service trains to be run.... (just saying!)
One must imagine that WCRC have some sort of long term game plan here, and not just bloody mindedness. It has been reported that the Jacobite track access agreement runs out this year, so they may have been looking for one last year under the status quo but aiming to negotiate something different for 2025 onwards. A large part of their income on the Jacobite must come from prebooked tour parties, and the travel companies that run these will surely be looking for a bit more stability or it will be dropped from their future programmes. Not sure who does the negotiating these days; it's unlikely that public money would be forthcoming to support what is essentially a commercial operation, but you could quite see the possibilities of some sort of capital grant to convert "historic heritage vehicles". Given the politics of Scotland, interesting to note that SRPS are in a very similar situation with their Mk1 stock which, when it was running, also arguably contributed to the tourist economy of Scotland.
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The legislation requires that any exemption granted is time limited. The ORR granted exemptions to everyone who had them previously including WCRC up until 2028. The shorter period allows any learnings that feed into new conditions to be applied more quickly as a smooth renewal rather than needing to revoke exemptions. The ORR has the power to revoke all the exemptions at any time for any reason. There is nothing to suggest they will do that or not allow renewal of Regulation 4 exemptions for Mark 1 stock in 2028.
Nym
Established Member
Pray tell, which Mk.4s and which in service Mk.3s other than the sleepers are using the BR CDL at the moment…?
12LDA28C
Established Member
Oops, not Mk4s of course but yes I was referring to the Night Riviera.
And yet at least one other charter operator has carried out the necessary modifications, so how is it economically viable for LSL and not WCRC?
43096
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The people at the 'sharp end' who deliberately isolated safety systems and/or turned a blind eye to it, knowing full well the rule book requirements?
They make a choice to work for such an employer. If you don't like the organisational culture, then you get out. I know of people who did some contract work at Carnforth, didn't like what they saw and have never been back.
I was referring more to the cost of having to drag a diesel loco or generator car around to provide power, plus associated extra fuel/staff costs than the outlay of fitting CDL itself. I understand the Jacobite is limited in length due to passing loops, and as it’s largely standard class I can imagine runs on a tighter margin than the more typical premier dining tours seen nowadays, so a coach less revenue may mean it isn’t viable, especially considering how the price of coal has shot up recently.
No matter how many millions any company has in the bank, there is no incentive to run a loss making operation.
anothertyke
Member
The words 'at this stage' could be important.
LSL were required to fit CDL to Mk1s as a condition of entry to the market. They will have had a minimum ten years out of them. It could be that a three year life is simply too short.
Or it could be that viewing this through the prism of economic rationality is the wrong model. We might be in the wonderful world of private owners responsible to no-one but themselves deciding what to do.
Or a combination of the two--- after all WCR has fitted up the Northern Belle stock.Perhaps that is a lot easier and a lot less risky.
And there are 12C's points as well.
LSL were required to fit CDL to Mk1s as a condition of entry to the market. They will have had a minimum ten years out of them. It could be that a three year life is simply too short.
Or it could be that viewing this through the prism of economic rationality is the wrong model. We might be in the wonderful world of private owners responsible to no-one but themselves deciding what to do.
Or a combination of the two--- after all WCR has fitted up the Northern Belle stock.Perhaps that is a lot easier and a lot less risky.
And there are 12C's points as well.
Mountain Man
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paul1609
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Out of interest which vehicles have had the override protection fitted?