Ticket Vending Machines (TVMs) should have foreign language options

infobleep · 2 Apr 2024

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/ticket-machines-why-has-qwerty-been-abandoned.265376/

On the Hamburg TMVs I can select English. The option to select German doesn't appear on the Guildford TMVs. In fact a lot of Asian students study at the University of Surrey and the TMVs don't offer Chinese.

So if we must cater for foreigners with ABC, why not their local languages too?

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northwichcat · 3 Apr 2024

infobleep said:
On the Hamburg TMVs I can select English. The option to select German doesn't appear on the Guildford TMVs. In fact a lot of Asian students study at the University of Surrey and the TMVs don't offer Chinese.

So if we must cater for foreigners with ABC, why not their local languages too?

If the government are keen on closing ticket offices, they should really mandate foreign language options on TVMs. Employing people to work at an airport station who speak 10 different languages is difficult, especially when some ticket restrictions need explaining. Programming a machine to 'speak' 10 different languages is much easier.

Bletchleyite · 3 Apr 2024

northwichcat said:
If the government are keen on closing ticket offices, they should really mandate foreign language options on TVMs. Employing people to work at an airport station who speak 10 different languages is difficult, especially when some ticket restrictions need explaining. Programming a machine to 'speak' 10 different languages is much easier.

I do support this as it's easy to do, but it is worth noting that English is basically a de-facto global language and is so widely spoken that this is probably not an actual practical issue.

RT4038 · 3 Apr 2024

northwichcat said:
If the government are keen on closing ticket offices, they should really mandate foreign language options on TVMs. Employing people to work at an airport station who speak 10 different languages is difficult, especially when some ticket restrictions need explaining. Programming a machine to 'speak' 10 different languages is much easier.

What has the closure of ticket offices got to do with mandating foreign language options of TVMs? How many ticket offices currently have staff, on duty at any one time, able to speak several different languages? There may well be good reasons to have ETMs that have foreign language options (which should be relatively easy), but ticket office closures are not one of them.

Harpers Tate · 3 Apr 2024

I tend to disagree. It's incumbent, I think, on people visiting to equip themsleves with a basic ability to use either the local language or English (since as noted elsewhere, English has become - like it or not - a defacto "global" first or second language) whether by personal knowledge or by employing some translator - human or otherwise.

It might be argued that English speakers are "lazy" in not, typically, knowing other tongues, but an alternate perspective is that we are not lazy per se, but rather fortunate that our language is that defacto standard.

Killingworth · 3 Apr 2024

infobleep said:
Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/ticket-machines-why-has-qwerty-been-abandoned.265376/

On the Hamburg TMVs I can select English. The option to select German doesn't appear on the Guildford TMVs. In fact a lot of Asian students study at the University of Surrey and the TMVs don't offer Chinese.

So if we must cater for foreigners with ABC, why not their local languages too?

Northern TVMs offer several European language options including from memory, French German, Spanish and Polish.

I think some other TOC's machines do too but Chinese and other Asian languages are a challenge too far at present.

urbophile · 3 Apr 2024

Harpers Tate said:
I tend to disagree. It's incumbent, I think, on people visiting to equip themsleves with a basic ability to use either the local language or English (since as noted elsewhere, English has become - like it or not - a defacto "global" first or second language) whether by personal knowledge or by employing some translator - human or otherwise.

It might be argued that English speakers are "lazy" in not, typically, knowing other tongues, but an alternate perspective is that we are not lazy per se, but rather fortunate that our language is that defacto standard.

That is a prime example of anglo-centric exceptionalism. Why should we, in the post imperial ages, expect that 'lesser nations' should grovel and be tongue-tied in the face of the 'superior' English language? Even more demeaning, for the monolingual English, is to take pride in our lack of language skills.

I am fluent enough in Italian or French to cope with instructions on a TVM in those languages. But I usually find it easier and quicker to switch to English, to avoid unnecessary mistakes and for the sake of clarity. It's not always easy to spot subtleties, especially when – as we know all too well from discussions on this forum – jargon and technicalities often make it difficult even for native speakers to understand.

If Swiss machines can cope with three or four official languages plus English it should be a no-brainer to equip all British TVMs with most major European languages (even if Asian languages with their different scripts are beyond them). Welsh ones of course are already bilingual.

It's not only common courtesy to visitors, I would have thought it made good business sense too.

Harpers Tate · 3 Apr 2024

urbophile said:
That is a prime example of anglo-centric exceptionalism. Why should we, in the post imperial ages, expect that 'lesser nations' should grovel and be tongue-tied in the face of the 'superior' English language? Even more demeaning, for the monolingual English, is to take pride in our lack of language skills.

We shouldn't. But the fact is - for the most part, we can. So, no, it's not "anglo-centric exceptionalism" at all. It's a mere expression of the situation English speakers happen to find themselves in.

Knowledge of, or self-provision of a translator, for the local language does arise in certain circumstances. In a part of Spain, having had a theft from a hotel room, I was required, at my own expense, to provide a translator for the police report. I question whether the same thing would apply in reverse here, or whether a translator would be provided for me.

Trackman · 3 Apr 2024

Killingworth said:
I think some other TOC's machines do too but Chinese and other Asian languages are a challenge too far at present.

TfL machines manage it though.

northwichcat · 3 Apr 2024

RT4038 said:
What has the closure of ticket offices got to do with mandating foreign language options of TVMs? How many ticket offices currently have staff, on duty at any one time, able to speak several different languages? There may well be good reasons to have ETMs that have foreign language options (which should be relatively easy), but ticket office closures are not one of them.

If the government think a better service can be operated without ticket offices, they need to ensure TVMs can serve as many people as possible. For a French visitor an English only TVM is worse than a ticket office clerk who knows a little French. And if there was a real communication issue the ticket office clerk might be able to find someone else (either in person or on the phone) who could assist.

Llanigraham · 3 Apr 2024

I find this quite funny.
Here we have people suggesting that we should have TVM's and things in various European and other languages, and yet we regularly get complaints when TfW use my native language on their trains and machines.
And I really don't expect the railway system in France, Germany or Holland to treat me in any special way by them having English machines. If I don't understand something there is invariably someone nearby who can help or translate for me.

northwichcat · 3 Apr 2024

Llanigraham said:
and yet we regularly get complaints when TfW use my native language on their trains and machines.

Are there compliants about Welsh being used or about it being always being Welsh first, even on a service that remains 100% in England?

While there were passengers with Welsh accents on the Chester to Crewe shuttle when I used it recently. There's also frequently passengers with Welsh accents on Merseyrail. Why does one English service to Chester need Welsh first and another not need Welsh at all?

Bletchleyite · 3 Apr 2024

northwichcat said:
If the government think a better service can be operated without ticket offices, they need to ensure TVMs can serve as many people as possible. For a French visitor an English only TVM is worse than a ticket office clerk who knows a little French. And if there was a real communication issue the ticket office clerk might be able to find someone else (either in person or on the phone) who could assist.

When I am in another country with a bit of knowledge of the language I vastly prefer a TVM. It's easier to take the time to work things out than a stressful conversation full of misunderstandings.

northwichcat said:
Are there compliants about Welsh being used or about it being always being Welsh first, even on a service that remains 100% in England?

While there were passengers with Welsh accents on the Chester to Crewe shuttle when I used it recently. There's also frequently passengers with Welsh accents on Merseyrail. Why does one English service to Chester need Welsh first and another not need Welsh at all?

I would like them to take the SBB approach - Welsh first when in Wales, English first when in England.

43096 · 3 Apr 2024

Bletchleyite said:
When I am in another country with a bit of knowledge of the language I vastly prefer a TVM. It's easier to take the time to work things out than a stressful conversation full of misunderstandings.

I would like them to take the SBB approach - Welsh first when in Wales, English first when in England.

SBB is more nuanced than that, though. German is German spekaing areas, French in French speaking areas i.e. majority language first. TfW should replicate that so that in majority Welsh speaking areas it is Welsh first, in majority English speaking areas is English first.

wattman · 3 Apr 2024

Llanigraham said:
And I really don't expect the railway system in France, Germany or Holland to treat me in any special way by them having English machines.

In any case, on the Dutch ticket machines it is possible to switch between Dutch and English.
see this video on YouTube

BrianW · 3 Apr 2024

Trackman said:
TfL machines manage it though.

Is anyone familiar with arrangements at Marylebone regarding travellers to Bicester Village?

wattman said:
In any case, on the Dutch ticket machines it is possible to switch between Dutch and English.
see this video on YouTube

Thankyou. It looked to me that the user found it still rather user-unfriendly; maybe more what we might in the past have called 'Double-Dutch'-

renegademaster · 3 Apr 2024

How good are the translations on the TVMs that do have them? Are they hand translated or do they just run everything through the Google translate API?

Helvellyn · 3 Apr 2024

Why are train tickets so expensive?

Why don't we have X gold-plated retail solutions/trains/stations?

Would love to see all these on a Venn diagram.

northwichcat · 3 Apr 2024

Helvellyn said:
Why are train tickets so expensive?

Why don't we have X gold-plated retail solutions/trains/stations?

Would love to see all these on a Venn diagram.

Making rail travel more attractive to foreign tourists can bring in more revenue for little additional cost. Countries like Spain and Italy can offer foreign language options on TVMs, plus cheaper rail fares.

Higher payroll costs for train operators and absurd leasing costs are why UK trains are more expensive.

Harpers Tate said:
It might be argued that English speakers are "lazy" in not, typically, knowing other tongues, but an alternate perspective is that we are not lazy per se, but rather fortunate that our language is that defacto standard.

We learn what the government thinks we need to learn at school, and then what we want/need to afterwards. Foreign languages are lower priority in the British schools curriculum, so we don't get to grips with them as soon as our European counterparts.

When I travelled on a RENFE service last year the guard came through and checked tickets and didn't like it that some Italians weren't sat in their allocated seats. The guard only spoke Spanish, they didn't. They tried speaking back in English, the guard had no idea what they were saying. The problem with us Brits is they've made it easy for us to use the train when things go right - English options on the TVM and website, English on the CIS on the train. However, if things go wrong the person whose there to help may not know any English.

Topological · 3 Apr 2024

BrianW said:
Is anyone familiar with arrangements at Marylebone regarding travellers to Bicester Village?

Thankyou. It looked to me that the user found it still rather user-unfriendly; maybe more what we might in the past have called 'Double-Dutch'-

It is good that Oxford and Bicester have the multilingual announcements, so presumably Marylebone does as well.

If I am allowed to call it amusing then I will, because it is all owing to the desire of people to spend money at Bicester Village. It would be nice to think similar efforts were made to support visitors to Windsor, Statford-upon-Avon etc. However, I suspect it is just Bicester Village knowing their target market.

Trainbike46 · 3 Apr 2024

Llanigraham said:
I find this quite funny.
Here we have people suggesting that we should have TVM's and things in various European and other languages, and yet we regularly get complaints when TfW use my native language on their trains and machines.
And I really don't expect the railway system in France, Germany or Holland to treat me in any special way by them having English machines. If I don't understand something there is invariably someone nearby who can help or translate for me.

I came here to ask if ticket machines in Wales offer Welsh Language options, but by this it sounds like they do - good!

Despite me not speaking any Welsh at all, I do like the Welsh announcements on the trains. I think the suggestion upthread of doing Welsh first in Wales, English first in England would be good.

Relatedly, does anyone know if TVMs in Scotland offer Gaelic?

Fingers crossed that the new TVMs over here will be able to do Irish as well as English (though we should probably do English first here)

The exile · 4 Apr 2024

northwichcat said:
We learn what the government thinks we need to learn at school, and then what we want/need to afterwards. Foreign languages are lower priority in the British schools curriculum, so we don't get to grips with them as soon as our European counterparts.

Can only comment from my experience as a foreign language teacher in Germany. English is massively in demand and the need to learn it unquestioned (“it’s a global means of communication, not a foreign language”).The attitude of your average German teenager to any other foreign language is on a par with those over here.

stuu · 4 Apr 2024

Don't lots of them already have foreign language options? I'm sure GWR ones do

The Planner · 4 Apr 2024

Can't be that difficult, MaccyDs and KFC seem to manage it on their self service kiosks.

renegademaster · 4 Apr 2024

The Planner said:
Can't be that difficult, MaccyDs and KFC seem to manage it on their self service kiosks.

Its technically very easy, all they need to do is run all the text through Google translate. Hand translating it all would be very expensive though, and leaning on machine translation too much will lead to loads of incorrect translations to cause confusion. In Europe unless it's a legally multilingual country like Switzerland or Belgium most of the time it will only be the national language and English, you won't see any other European language or common minority languages, the English mainly being for other Europeans ,not English tourists

SeanG · 4 Apr 2024

You can't expect our government to want to help people from abroad coming to our country can you....?

m0ffy · 4 Apr 2024

Llanigraham said:
I find this quite funny.
Here we have people suggesting that we should have TVM's and things in various European and other languages, and yet we regularly get complaints when TfW use my native language on their trains and machines.
And I really don't expect the railway system in France, Germany or Holland to treat me in any special way by them having English machines. If I don't understand something there is invariably someone nearby who can help or translate for me.

If we’re being fair, all TVMs in the UK should have options for Welsh, Scots Gaelic, Ulster Scots, and Irish, as well as other languages.

northwichcat · 4 Apr 2024

renegademaster said:
In Europe unless it's a legally multilingual country like Switzerland or Belgium most of the time it will only be the national language and English, you won't see any other European language or common minority languages, the English mainly being for other Europeans ,not English tourists

Standard for Spain is Spanish, English, French and German, as shown in this video:

Standard for Italy is Italian, English, German, French, Spanish and Chinese. As shown here:

France is more limited with just French, English and German:

Germany includes Turkish in their options:

I don't know where this idea of it just being local language and English comes from?

BrianW · 4 Apr 2024

m0ffy said:
If we’re being fair, all TVMs in the UK should have options for Welsh, Scots Gaelic, Ulster Scots, and Irish, as well as other languages.

Fair enough/ 'Avin a larf'? Cockney, Brummie, Geordie, Scouse, Kernewek, ... Irish is contentious enough in Northern Ireland/ the north of Ireland.

m0ffy · 4 Apr 2024

BrianW said:
Fair enough/ 'Avin a larf'? Cockney, Brummie, Geordie, Scouse, Kernewek, ... Irish is contentious enough in Northern Ireland/ the north of Ireland.

These are all living, indigenous, recognised languages - you’ve mentioned a list of dialects. They are not comparable.

Ticket Vending Machines (TVMs) should have foreign language options

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