Ticket Vending Machines (TVMs) should have foreign language options

BrianW said:

Irish is contentious enough in Northern Ireland/ the north of Ireland.

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You could say the same about Welsh in certain areas of Wales and Scots Gaelic in large parts of Scotland.

m0ffy said:

If we’re being fair, all TVMs in the UK should have options for Welsh, Scots Gaelic, Ulster Scots, and Irish, as well as other languages.

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I agree; Personally I would consider adding Cornish, but your list would be a good start

Tyne and Wear Metro TVMs have seven languages: English, French, German, Spanish, Norwegian, Polish and Chinese.

Harpers Tate said:

I tend to disagree. It's incumbent, I think, on people visiting to equip themsleves with a basic ability to use either the local language or English (since as noted elsewhere, English has become - like it or not - a defacto "global" first or second language) whether by personal knowledge or by employing some translator - human or otherwise.

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Overseas visitors are doing us a favour by coming and spending money here, we should be making it as easy as possible for them to do so, not putting obstacles in their way.

I would suggest that foreign languages might be a good idea on TVMs, but the most important objective must be to standardise the experience on TVMs.

Using a TVM will be way easier if every one a tourist or other user is likely to meet operates in the same fashion.

HSTEd said:

I would suggest that foreign languages might be a good idea on TVMs, but the most important objective must be to standardise the experience on TVMs.

Using a TVM will be way easier if every one a tourist or other user is likely to meet operates in the same fashion.

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Yes, if a single design for TVMs could be chosen then that would make life a lot easier.

I would start by getting rid of any "common" tickets from the front page so that it always starts with destination as the first input. Maybe an advanced button for people who want to choose a different origin, or a different date.

The only possible exception is at an airport where the cheapest fare (single and return) to the main city could be shown on the front page as a one click, but then I am sure there would be reasons why that would soon expand in definition (e.g. Heathrow Express to Paddington versus Elizabeth Line to Zone 1 etc.)

Perhaps just getting more languages is the easier step.

Which foreign languages? All 7000 of them? Just curious as to where the line (if any) should be drawn.

Harpers Tate said:

Which foreign languages? All 7000 of them? Just curious as to where the line (if any) should be drawn.

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Logically those languages which are most commonly spoken by our largest groups of visitor would make sense? Thankfully the ONS do have data on this:



(Chart showing in descending order the top 10 visiting countries to the UK in 2022 those being the USA, France, Ireland, Germany, Spain, Netherlands, Poland, Italy, Canada and Switzerland)

Look at that list the USA, Candada and Ireland I'm sure will be fine with English meaning to me, most logically, French, German and Spanish would make sense as the alternatives on TVMs. French and Spanish also have an advantage in that they're quite widely spoken by residents of countries outside of Spain and France as a first language (parts of Africa as well as parts of Southern and Latin America). There may well be a case by case basis in some areas for another language on top (for instance at Marylebone and Bicester Village it might make sense to provide Mandarin).

Honestly I don't know why you're trying to suggest that because we cannot provide translation for all the worlds languages we should provide nothing at all. There is quite clearly a mid-point to be struck. Indeed it already is by some operators like Northern who clearly have looked at the above list and chosen to provide the popular languages. As @Watershed noted they provide German, Spanish, French and Polish funnily enough the most popular non-English speaking visitors to the UK...

ainsworth74 said:

Honestly I don't know why you're trying to suggest that because we cannot provide translation for all the worlds languages we should provide nothing at all.

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I don't recall making such a suggestion for such a reason. I did suggest earlier that - despite the fact (like it or not) that English is one of the closest things we have to a ubiquitous first or second language, there are places and circumstances in which English (only) speakers are required to provide and/or fund translation services.

ainsworth74 said:

Logically those languages which are most commonly spoken by our largest groups of visitor would make sense? Thankfully the ONS do have data on this:

View attachment 155873

Travel trends - Office for National Statistics

Annual estimates of completed international visits to and from the UK and earnings and expenditure associated with these visits.

www.ons.gov.uk

(Chart showing in descending order the top 10 visiting countries to the UK in 2022 those being the USA, France, Ireland, Germany, Spain, Netherlands, Poland, Italy, Canada and Switzerland)

Look at that list the USA, Candada and Ireland I'm sure will be fine with English meaning to me, most logically, French, German and Spanish would make sense as the alternatives on TVMs. French and Spanish also have an advantage in that they're quite widely spoken by residents of countries outside of Spain and France as a first language (parts of Africa as well as parts of Southern and Latin America). There may well be a case by case basis in some areas for another language on top (for instance at Marylebone and Bicester Village it might make sense to provide Mandarin).

Honestly I don't know why you're trying to suggest that because we cannot provide translation for all the worlds languages we should provide nothing at all. There is quite clearly a mid-point to be struck. Indeed it already is by some operators like Northern who clearly have looked at the above list and chosen to provide the popular languages. As @Watershed noted they provide German, Spanish, French and Polish funnily enough the most popular non-English speaking visitors to the UK...

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Have a nice day, mon ami, to be sure... piece of cake. Or is that 'cakeism'? Willkomen, bienvenue, welcome. Slainte, skol, cheers.

infobleep said:

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/ticket-machines-why-has-qwerty-been-abandoned.265376/

On the Hamburg TMVs I can select English. The option to select German doesn't appear on the Guildford TMVs. In fact a lot of Asian students study at the University of Surrey and the TMVs don't offer Chinese.

So if we must cater for foreigners with ABC, why not their local languages too?

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As an aside I've found German TVMs to be confusing and often inconsistent in what is and isn't presented in English. Getting multi lingual functions to work properly does need a fair bit of thought put into it.

A couple of things strike me from this thread.

The first is that it has all been based on the languages used by visitors. I would have thought minority (Scots, Welsh, Irish, Scottish Gaelic) and immigrant (Polish, Romanian, Punjabi, Urdu, Portuguese, Spanish, Arabic, etc), were equally desirable, for importance or usefulness.

Beyond their use on TVMs, the extent to which they should be used on signs and notices also needs thought (when TfL produced telling you not to travel because of Covid, it was repeated in 12 other laguages - a somewhat random selection, not the same choices I've seen elsewhere) - which brings up another point: there doesn't seem to be any standard as to what languages should be catered for.

And I would agree it needs care to implement sensibly - just putting it through Google translate is likely to lead to howlers and misunderstandings...

For practical reasons, neither common immigrant or native minority languages are reallly necessary, because they will largely speak English already. If money is going to be spent paying translators, by private companies, on adding extra langue options, it will be on what will bring bang for buck , common tourist languages.

etr221 said:

A couple of things strike me from this thread.

The first is that it has all been based on the languages used by visitors. I would have thought minority (Scots, Welsh, Irish, Scottish Gaelic) and immigrant (Polish, Romanian, Punjabi, Urdu, Portuguese, Spanish, Arabic, etc), were equally desirable, for importance or usefulness.

Beyond their use on TVMs, the extent to which they should be used on signs and notices also needs thought (when TfL produced telling you not to travel because of Covid, it was repeated in 12 other laguages - a somewhat random selection, not the same choices I've seen elsewhere) - which brings up another point: there doesn't seem to be any standard as to what languages should be catered for.

And I would agree it needs care to implement sensibly - just putting it through Google translate is likely to lead to howlers and misunderstandings...

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There have been a few posts talking about minority languages, and various posters including me said that they should be provided. One poster reported that Welsh was in fact available on TfW TVMs - as it should be (though I think it should be available across the country)

It shouldn't be difficult to translate a TVM and I agree it should be done. It is quite common on things like cash points and so on.

I speak enough French and German to explain about basic railway issues to customers in those languages provided the subsequent questions aren't too challenging - most often though I find them used as a third language as French and German natives tend to speak passable to excellent English. The exception came recently of course when I managed to explain to an elderly French lady that her train was cancelled and reroute her to Stansted Airport.

LNER TVMs do offer other languages, but having played around with one in a foreign language, it became quickly apparent that barely anything was actually translated. Ticket names, restrictions, explainers etc. were still in English. All that changed was the navigation buttons.

Directly translating a ticket name might be too much of an ask (Super Off-Peak might accidentally translate into some superhero of the ticketing variety) but restriction info should be.

Most TVMs abroad manage this - I think the last time I had to scratch my head for a moment was an ancient TVM in Sopot (PL) which had exactly the same issue. You could navigate in English but ticket types and info were exclusively in Polish.

ainsworth74 said:

Look at that list the USA, Canada and Ireland I'm sure will be fine with English meaning to me, most logically, French, German and Spanish would make sense as the alternatives on TVMs. French and Spanish also have an advantage in that they're quite widely spoken by residents of countries outside of Spain and France as a first language (parts of Africa as well as parts of Southern and Latin America).

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In the case of Canada they have a French Language Act in Quebec and all official government information and forms must be provided in both English and French, so a French language speaker doesn't necessairly have a good understanding of English. With what's happened in Haiti in recent years a number of islanders moved to the French speaking part of Canada, and they would be even less likely to speak fluent English, even though they probably don't make up a significant number of tourists visiting the UK.

renegademaster said:

For practical reasons, neither common immigrant or native minority languages are reallly necessary, because they will largely speak English already. If money is going to be spent paying translators, by private companies, on adding extra langue options, it will be on what will bring bang for buck , common tourist languages.

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I don't think anyone's suggesting Eastern European languages, Africian languages or dialects of Arabic because native speakers of those languages have moved to the UK in the hope of finding a better life. It's more about whether English only is the right approach, when other countries cater for foreign tourists who don't speak the local language.

rg177 said:

Directly translating a ticket name might be too much of an ask (Super Off-Peak might accidentally translate into some superhero of the ticketing variety) but restriction info should be.

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I'd say we don't need to do that. Even in other English speaking countries they might not use the word 'peak' to mean the busy period. I notice on the DB website it says "Deutschland-Ticket DTV" whether you look at an English language page or a German one. Guide books and travel websites normally inform tourists of the name of the ticket they should buy. Messages like "Sorry there was a problem with your card. Please try again" in the local language are more likely to cause confusion. If you just know a few words of the local lingo from a message like that it may not be clear whether or not the problem is with the system being down, or just your card failing. I agree that restriction wording should be translated.

infobleep said:

On the Hamburg TMVs I can select English. The option to select German doesn't appear on the Guildford TMVs.

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....and that is most likely because:
1) Most other language native speakers will understand some English. It's illustrated quite well, I think, by an overheard conversation between an elderly German* couple and a a small group of younger Scandinavian* females about the draught being caused by the open window on the bus I was on. That was in Tenerife (= Spain). And the only reason I can describe the subject is because, unsurprisingly, it was conducted not in Spanish, German*, or any Scandinavian* tongue; they spoke in English.
2) ....whereas German is a language that is pretty much limited to German-speaking countries with far more limited understanding by those whose native language is not German.

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* Nationalities are an educated guess, rather than actual knowledge, and may have differed somewhat.

Harpers Tate said:

....and that is most likely because:
1) Most other language native speakers will understand some English. It's illustrated quite well, I think, by an overheard conversation between an elderly German* couple and a a small group of younger Scandinavian* females about the draught being caused by the open window on the bus I was on. That was in Tenerife (= Spain). And the only reason I can describe the subject is because, unsurprisingly, it was conducted not in Spanish, German*, or any Scandinavian* tongue; they spoke in English.

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Tenerife is a place where there have been protests against overtourism. Consequently both English and German are widely understood, as they send the most tourists there. For tourists from other countries it doesn't matter which of the three languages they speak but if they try speaking in native Swedish or Croatian, they probably won't get anywhere. As I mentioned further up on a train on mainland Spain where the Italians onboard couldn't speak Spanish, they were unable to communicate with the train guard.

Saying that I did find in a rural part of Italy that my attempt to order a coffee in Italian was met with a response in English. Either she picked up on my accent or thought my attempt at Italian was terrible!

One thing about Germans speaking English - I often find they use an Americanised form of English, which occasionally causes confusion. If an American says subway you know they mean underground train. When a German says it, it's tempting to ask if they mean the S-Bahn or a pedestrian underpass.