Are these tickets considered expired when a passenger alights at a station in the Stations group, or can they be used for onward travel to another station in the group? For example, if I had a ticket from somewhere to Manchester Stations but the somewhere only had services to Piccadilly would I be allowed to catch another train to Oxford Road without paying a further fare?
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Validity limit of [Place] Stations tickets
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Kilopylae
Member
You'd be allowed to catch another train to Oxford Road.
[X] Stations tickets are valid to the 'furthest' station in the group from the origin. If break of journey is permitted (it almost always is for walk-up fares), doing so is just as valid at a station within the destination group as anywhere else.
Worth noting that some barriers are incorrectly configured to 'swallow' group station tickets in these circumstances. So if you have a paper ticket I'd show it to the relevant member of barrier staff.
Worth noting that some barriers are incorrectly configured to 'swallow' group station tickets in these circumstances. So if you have a paper ticket I'd show it to the relevant member of barrier staff.
Haywain
Veteran Member
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But not necessarily easy.
I've done that in the past and it's been no more helpful than putting the ticket into a barrier.
HurdyGurdy
Member
That's not the way validity is described in the Routeing Guide. It would lead to oddities at groups like Farnborough Stns and Warrington C/BQ and where stations in the group are on completely different lines and a valid route from the origin station to the 'furthest' group station did not pass through one of the other stations in the group enabling a break of journey at that point.
Instead I've always understood that a ticket from 'somewhere' to [X] stations, is independently valid from 'somewhere' to any of X, subject to normal route availability. Should any of those valid routes pass through any another of X, that's irrelevant.
Strictly speaking, that's not necessarily true if it's an Advance ticket and the onward service is one where reservations are available.
Kilopylae
Member
There won't be a ticket check between Oxford Road and Piccadilly and the magstripe will say Manchester Stns, so will work the barriers at Oxford Road, so this is something of an irrelevant technicality.
glasgowniteowl
Member
Wouldn't the advance be to Manchester Piccadilly rather than Manchester stations though? Advances are generally to a station not a station group as far as I know
The reservation would be to Piccadilly, but the ticket is likely to be issued to Manchester Stations (depending on the origin.)
As for the Manchester example - if break of journey is permitted then indeed you could continue to Oxford Road.
I had this exact scenario two weeks back when a friend and I had a concert to attend near Oxford Road - we came from Holmes Chapel, had something to eat near Piccadilly then went one stop further afterwards.
Northern/Carlisle Security staff at Piccadilly did an initial 'that's the wrong ticket' routine before letting us through after we explained we were going to Oxford Road.
I had this exact scenario two weeks back when a friend and I had a concert to attend near Oxford Road - we came from Holmes Chapel, had something to eat near Piccadilly then went one stop further afterwards.
Northern/Carlisle Security staff at Piccadilly did an initial 'that's the wrong ticket' routine before letting us through after we explained we were going to Oxford Road.
Also worth noting that some staff (and posters on here) incorrectly claim such a ticket does expire once a train you are on stops at the first station in a group.
The fact that such a rule would mean that nobody could ever travel to Oxford Rd on a Manchester Stations ticket when coming from the east, or to Piccadilly on virtually any train coming from the west is seemingly beyond them and of course such a rule would prevent travel to Charing Cross, Wateroo East or Cannon St on London Terminals ticket.
The way I've seen it described is "valid to any of X, but once you have reached the first X group member it's now only valid to members of that group, and not to any other stations".
HurdyGurdy
Member
I don't think that qualification is part of the definition used in implementing the routeing guide. For example a Doncaster to Manchester Stns via Sheffield ticket is independently valid from Doncaster to each of Piccadilly, Oxford Road and Victoria. A route via Sheffield to Victoria passes through Piccadilly, Oxford Road and Deansgate and if you can somehow specify 'via Deansgate or 'not via Salford Crescent', journey planners will produce that as a valid itinerary. The route is valid because Deansgate is part of MANCHESTER GROUP for routeing purposes.
If 'somewhere' to [X] stations had a "now only valid to members of that group" test, that route would not be allowed because having passed through Piccadilly and Oxford Road, you wouldn't be able to pass through Deansgate, as it's not a member of the Manchester Stns group, for ticketing purposes.
Paul Kelly
Verified Rep - BR Fares
I think your interpretation here is actually correct. The reason it is allowed is because (as island said) Deansgate is in the Manchester Stations group.
HurdyGurdy
Member
Yes, of course it is. Silly of me. Can you provide an example (other than London Terminals or London Thameslink) where the "now only valid to members of that group" prevents an otherwise valid route being used?
Haywain
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If you had said Salford Central, rather than Deansgate your point would look better.
HurdyGurdy
Member
Perhaps that was what I was thinking of...
Maybe a simpler example is Goole (GOO) to Thorne Stns. The group comprises Thorne North (TNN) and Thorne South (TNS) and fares are routed '.' code 01000.
The Off-Peak Day Single (£5.00) is obviously valid from GOO to TNN direct. But the NRE journey planner also shows the same fare valid from GOO to TNS, changing at Hatfield and Stainforth (HFS). Having passed through TNN, HFS is not a member of the Thorne Stns group, so would fail a "now only valid to members of that group" test. No Routing Points, Routeing Groups or maps involved. I believe the route is valid as the shortest route between GOO and TNS.
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Fermiboson
Member
Isn’t this a loophole? Off peak single from GOO to HFS is 6.70, but GOO to Thorne Stns as you say is valid for a break of journey at HFS.
HurdyGurdy
Member
Loophole?? It's a consequence of explicitly grouping TNN and TNS together, so that fares from GOO are valid to either, so I'd say it's a feature, rather than a bug.
Kilopylae
Member
A previous thread has suggested that Stockport to Victoria via Piccadilly and Salford Crescent would be valid with a Manchester Stns ticket:
Manchester stations ticket destination
My local station runs into Manchester piccadily and the ticket says manchester stations. So am I able to go to Victoria vai Salford crescent ordoes my journey end at picc. I know I'm unable to use the metro as the ticket is not valid, and when asked at my booking office they told me they can...
www.railforums.co.uk
Paul Kelly
Verified Rep - BR Fares
Very interesting thread. I think I missed that at the time and I can't see how it would be valid; the ticket's validity would expire after Deansgate, unless it was specifically issued to Victoria.
Maybe the people in that thread who say it would be valid are falling back on the case of it being contractually valid if the itinerary was issued by a buggy booking engine/journey planner?
Maybe the people in that thread who say it would be valid are falling back on the case of it being contractually valid if the itinerary was issued by a buggy booking engine/journey planner?
Just to be pedantic its been Deansgate-Castlefield since 2010. Happened to pass through it twice in each direction last month on a day-trip to Manchester - Transpennine tickets to Piccadilly [Transpennine don't stop at Deansgate], then contactless tram tickets for going in the other direction.
Springs Branch
Established Member
I'm no expert on intricacies of routing but, rather than a bug in the booking engine, is the 'change at Salford Crescent' thing a result of the 'permitted within 3 miles of shortest route' rule (considering your actual origin or final destination station in Manchester)?
Another example in similar vein is planning a journey from Bradford Interchange to Deansgate on a weekday. Journey Planners generate two distinct itineraries, usually repeating each hour:
- Change at Man Victoria & Salford Crescent.
- Change at Victoria, then TPE via Ordsall Chord to Oxford Road (passing through Deansgate), then double-back from Oxford Rd to Deansgate.
I had thought double-backs along line-of-route like this were verboten in journey planners - and had expected they would restrict you to the hourly itinerary via Crescent. But you learn something every day.
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National Rail tickets print it as Deansgate G-Mex so that is the term I use here on RailForums UK.
alistairlees
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According to RSP data:
- the station name is Deansgate
- the fare location is Deansgate G-Mex
- the Manchester Stations group comprises "Manchester Piccadilly, Victoria, Oxford Road or Deansgate"
It looks like the fare location should be changed from Deansgate G-Mex to Deansgate.
Haywain
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The tram stop has been Deansgate-Castlefield for many years but that isn't the same as the railway station.
Paul Kelly
Verified Rep - BR Fares
That is just an example of a bug in the journey planner used by NRE, though. Someone might say it's contractually valid if you travel on the booked itinerary since contractual validity must take account of bugs in journey planners - I think that can be true whilst still being a clear case of over-travelling past the destination on the ticket.
Mcr Warrior
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Indeed. Tram stop was opened in April 1992 as 'G-Mex' & renamed as 'Deansgate-Castlefield' in September 2010.
Paul Kelly
Verified Rep - BR Fares
Right, I am not disputing that via Salford Crescent is a permitted route from Stockport to Manchester Victoria, but rather pointing out that it is not possible to make use of that permitted route due to the ticket (you would be travelling past the destination fares group to get to Salford Crescent).
In this case I would say the permitted route is only from Bradford Interchange to Victoria. After that the continued validity is due to the fares group, and the way this works is not clearly defined anywhere but allowing to pass through a station non-stop and then double-back to it is a logical interpretation and quite useful in a number of situations. This is the way I implemented it in the FastJP journey planner (used by TrainSplit and the forum's ticket site).
A similar example would be travelling from somewhere in the south-west (e.g. Taunton) to Reading West - the train would pass through Reading West non-stop and you can then double-back from Reading to get there, entirely within the destination fares group. NRE will show "No fares available" for such journeys which I think is very unreasonable (see screenshot) - you would need to use the forum site to book such a journey
