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Potential up to 2,000 job losses at Alstom Derby

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Peter Sarf

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Nicholas Lewis said:
Absolutely spot on this situation has been created by allowing each operator to do its own thing and there is now a risk we end up with no assembly plants let alone manufacturing capability. Going forward a single design to replace all the 15x vehicles should be policy be they bimodes or even straight diesels.
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I would say we need a few prototypes before placing big orders. I was alarmed how DfT jumped in with both feet and ordered so many IETs in such a short time without proving the design. So rushed indeed that Newton Aylcliffe did not have the capacity to cope and so some construction went abroad. So we wasted chances for UK manufacturing there.

Fools rush in.

Of course we have allowed ourselves to sleep walk into the situation where time to play prototypes is not on our side for the next tranche of replacements.
JonathanH said:
Even though the 150s, 156s, 158s, 165s etc were built for different purposes? One lease company as well? A big risk it wouldn't be Derby or even in the UK.

I understand that a single design can be worthwhile, 377s and the current operation on Southern are testament to that, but it isn't without its compromises.
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Tempted to say two designs to cover 150s, 153s, 155s, 156s, 158s, 159s, 165s & 166s. Probably 230s or suchlike for the small stuff (including 139s ?)

Of course the only proven DMU currently available is the CAF 195/196/197 !. For a proven Bi-Mode its Stadler. Not saying those are the best possible but Derby/Alstom is a long way behind in terms of a ready and refined design !. Furthermore time is not on our side.

It is all just history repeating itself - we have never learned.

I doubt Derby fits into any of the above.

It is the price we pay for "competition".
 
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Nicholas Lewis

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JonathanH said:
Even though the 150s, 156s, 158s, 165s etc were built for different purposes? One lease company as well? A big risk it wouldn't be Derby or even in the UK.
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Probably but at least some scope to make some conditions over final assembly and component supply if order is big enough. The risk of continuing small orders is they do end up being imported.
JonathanH said:
I understand that a single design can be worthwhile, 377s and the current operation on Southern are testament to that, but it isn't without its compromises.
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Well the worlds airlines have been content to accept the limitations Airbus or Boeing.
 
LNW-GW Joint

LNW-GW Joint

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Nicholas Lewis said:
Well the worlds airlines have been content to accept the limitations Airbus or Boeing.
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And the aircraft equivalent of rail manufacturing is that the UK does not build complete aircraft any more.
But it does supply wings (and some other components) for every Airbus jet, very successfully, at a specialised factory (Broughton/Chester).
There's a 10-year backlog of A3xx orders.
The equivalent for rail is for Derby to supply specialist components for Alstom trains globally, as part of its wider supply chain.
 
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JonathanH

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LNW-GW Joint said:
The equivalent for rail is for Derby to supply specialist components for Alstom trains globally, as part of its wider supply chain.
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The challenge obviously then being whether Derby has any advantage over another site Alstom run for doing that.
 
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Nicholas Lewis

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LNW-GW Joint said:
And the aircraft equivalent of rail manufacturing is that the UK does not build complete aircraft any more.
But it does supply wings (and some other components) for every Airbus jet, very successfully, at a specialised factory (Broughton/Chester).
There's a 10-year backlog of A3xx orders.
The equivalent for rail is for Derby to supply specialist components for Alstom trains globally, as part of its wider supply chain.
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You could say same about France and Germany over aeroplanes as they just assemble them for subassemblies and parts from all over Europe. Not sure Alstom are even planning to use Derby for anything else having restarted redundancy proceedings for all the assembly staff although that is probably done to cover them.
 
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Class 170101

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If I were Northern I'd be looking to Bi-modes to be honest.

Manchester to Windermere and Barrow
Blackpool to York
Darlington to Chathill
Knottingley to Leeds via Wakefield Westgate
Stalybridge to Southport
Leeds to Wigan Wallgate

Have reasonable sections running under the wires.
 
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172007

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LNW-GW Joint said:
And the aircraft equivalent of rail manufacturing is that the UK does not build complete aircraft any more.
But it does supply wings (and some other components) for every Airbus jet, very successfully, at a specialised factory (Broughton/Chester).
There's a 10-year backlog of A3xx orders.
The equivalent for rail is for Derby to supply specialist components for Alstom trains globally, as part of its wider supply chain.
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Snag is the aircraft wing assembly is a highly technical process and also requires people with a very specific skill set to plan, execute and test each wing to make sure its built to the correct spec. I can't see anything in a train that a standard engineering company can't do to stop them bidding for tenders and make the bits.
 
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Trainbike46

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Class 170101 said:
If I were Northern I'd be looking to Bi-modes to be honest.

Manchester to Windermere and Barrow
Blackpool to York
Darlington to Chathill
Knottingley to Leeds via Wakefield Westgate
Stalybridge to Southport
Leeds to Wigan Wallgate

Have reasonable sections running under the wires.
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I'd even go as far as saying that there shouldn't be any more straight diesels - BEMUs, EMUs and maybe bimodes have the future, so making a design that can fulfill that role, and has the potential to be changed over (for example by removing diesel engines and putting batteries in instead), is likely to be a much better bet in the long term.

It's important to remember that we're not just buying rolling stock for today, but for the next 35-45 years, and designs should reflect that
 
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Nicholas Lewis

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Lousie Haigh has responded to Mark Harper nothing letter over Alstom last week

https://twitter.com/LouHaigh/status/1776884237817290965

Its scanned in so can't quote it so reproduced below


GKjCyuMX0AEjIC3
GKjCyuMXsAAS7Ra

Time for action was months ago when Alstom first warned of the potential outcome. Also lack of any indication what Labour would do but helps keep a focus on the wider issue.
 
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baza585

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Meerkat

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baza585 said:
Takes two pages to say nothing.
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That's exactly what I was thinking - written just to release to the public to look like doing something.
No solution offered as to how they put in work to a specific factory.
It also doesn't explain why this plant should be saved. Make work doesn't normally end that well for anyone involved.
 
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baza585

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Meerkat said:
That's exactly what I was thinking - written just to release to the public to look like doing something.
No solution offered as to how they put in work to a specific factory.
It also doesn't explain why this plant should be saved. Make work doesn't normally end that well for anyone involved.
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I have some time for Huw Merriman who understands the railway, but neither Harper nor Haigh appear to have much clue in my opinion.

But frankly HMT is running the railway these days.
 
LNW-GW Joint

LNW-GW Joint

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baza585 said:
Takes two pages to say nothing.
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Labour has no plan, and wouldn't announce it even if it did, as it would tie their hands for the future.
The policy is to say nothing while the current government dies, leaving a blank sheet of paper when they take over.
As Haigh well knows, Harper isn't going to confirm dates for HS2 rolling stock production (because he can't possibly know when HS2 will open).
The TOCs are in no position to place orders in 2024 (ie not this side of an election), unless they are for cascades of existing stock.
TfL might have scope within its existing Class 345 contract to add some extra vehicles, but that won't solve Derby's longer-term problems.
 
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Bornin1980s

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Why are people still fighting to save the Derby plant? Hasn't Alstom now confirmed complete closure? If so, why doesn't anyone believe them?
 
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Trainbike46

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Bornin1980s said:
Why are people still fighting to save the Derby plant? Hasn't Alstom now confirmed complete closure? If so, why doesn't anyone believe them?
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I'm sure some people, rightly or wrongly, believe that the continuation in the redundancy process is effectively a "final warning", and therefore that if (sufficient) work can be created for the factory before that process is completed, the factory can be saved.
 
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Nicholas Lewis

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Bornin1980s said:
Why are people still fighting to save the Derby plant? Hasn't Alstom now confirmed complete closure? If so, why doesn't anyone believe them?
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Because it would look bad on opposition parties if they didn't say something. Reality is Torys are doing Labour a favour now in soaking up the bad news which is sadly inevitable.
 
LNW-GW Joint

LNW-GW Joint

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Bornin1980s said:
Why are people still fighting to save the Derby plant? Hasn't Alstom now confirmed complete closure? If so, why doesn't anyone believe them?
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It's not over until Alstom says so, and they have not yet announced plant closure.
There is much more to the plant than train assembly, which is where the immediate problem lies.
New bids, design, stock refurbishment, fleet support and maintenance, software development etc will be continuing activities, including for the HS2 order.
 
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Chester1

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LNW-GW Joint said:
Labour has no plan, and wouldn't announce it even if it did, as it would tie their hands for the future.
The policy is to say nothing while the current government dies, leaving a blank sheet of paper when they take over.
As Haigh well knows, Harper isn't going to confirm dates for HS2 rolling stock production (because he can't possibly know when HS2 will open).
The TOCs are in no position to place orders in 2024 (ie not this side of an election), unless they are for cascades of existing stock.
TfL might have scope within its existing Class 345 contract to add some extra vehicles, but that won't solve Derby's longer-term problems.
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Unless Sunak takes leave of his senses then the election will be November and the problem for Labour will be solved i.e. the factory will have already closed. There isn't enough work to go around and Alstom won't provide any export work to Derby, even if the government orders 10 x 345s etc.
 
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Nicholas Lewis

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Chester1 said:
Unless Sunak takes leave of his senses then the election will be November and the problem for Labour will be solved i.e. the factory will have already closed. There isn't enough work to go around and Alstom won't provide any export work to Derby, even if the government orders 10 x 345s etc.
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Sadly this is the reality and Litchurch Lane was condemned years ago when they let Hitachi in then CAF and now Siemens.
 
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ScottGallagher

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Nicholas Lewis said:
Sadly this is the reality and Litchurch Lane was condemned years ago when they let Hitachi in then CAF and now Siemens.
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Alstom saw the opportunity to eliminate a competitor when Bombardier were in big trouble and that maybe keeping Derby open past its order book was never the intention despite the Sabre rattling now going on.
 
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Invincible

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RealTrains07 said:
Shame as with all telegraph articles, its locked behind a paywall.
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I have a cheap online subscription through 02 rewards, but as a paper it is read by several influencing people.
Gives a good overview, concluding with
"Losing Alstom’s Litchurch Lane site would make Britain the only nation in the G7 without a combined train design and manufacturing capability. Nearly 200 years after first leaving the station, the end of the line for the industry is in sight."

Does look like Sunak's preferred "cost and time effective" transport is a RAF helicopter
www.independent.co.uk

Rishi Sunak ‘personally intervened to save his RAF helicopter trips’

Government U-turn at PM’s request prompted ‘frenetic’ scramble, air force reveals
www.independent.co.uk www.independent.co.uk
"Figures show Mr Sunak has taken a taxpayer-funded private flight for travel in the UK once every eight days since he secured the keys to No 10."
"The decision followed criticism over his use of the aircraft for short trips, including flying from London to Southampton, a journey that would have taken an hour and 15 minutes by train and cost £30 return."

With subsidised buses for those without access to helicopter or cars. For some reason, unlike previous PMs Sunak does not seem to like trains?.
 
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birchesgreen

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ScottGallagher said:
Alstom saw the opportunity to eliminate a competitor when Bombardier were in big trouble and that maybe keeping Derby open past its order book was never the intention despite the Sabre rattling now going on.
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Yes most likely, thats what happens when you let your industries become foreign owned, its happened time and time again and we never seem to learn (or those in charge don't care anyway).
 
LNW-GW Joint

LNW-GW Joint

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Nicholas Lewis said:
Sadly this is the reality and Litchurch Lane was condemned years ago when they let Hitachi in then CAF and now Siemens.
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Siemens has been part of the UK rail industry for well over a century, and I think taking account of its wider operations here has a larger UK footprint today than Alstom.
That's in rail, power, energy, wind turbines, medical equipment etc.
 
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Snow1964

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Nicholas Lewis said:
Sadly this is the reality and Litchurch Lane was condemned years ago when they let Hitachi in then CAF and now Siemens.
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And they dug their own grave, when they started turning out faulty trains about 4 years ago. Faults happen, but quality control stopped rectifying them before they left the factory gate, and that killed any notion of quality. Stored awaiting rectification should never have happened. It simply trashed it as credible builder of trains
 
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Invincible

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Snow1964 said:
And they dug their own grave, when they started turning out faulty trains about 4 years ago. Faults happen, but quality control stopped rectifying them before they left the factory gate, and that killed any notion of quality. Stored awaiting rectification should never have happened. It simply trashed it as credible builder of trains
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But the TV programme Inside the factory, Trains, sadly no longer on iPlayer, does show the commitment the Derby staff had in making the trains.
As I understand (please correct if wrong) 701s seem to have had 2 major problems (other than the covid period): software outsourced to India (which perhaps is still ongoing with 701s and 345s?) and the shortening of the driving cabs for SWR, which caused further mods to get right and they are now running.
 
43096

43096

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Invincible said:
But the TV programme Inside the factory, Trains, sadly no longer on iPlayer, does show the commitment the Derby staff had in making the trains.
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Of course it shows that. Do you think Bombardier would have allowed it show anything different?
Invincible said:
As I understand (please correct if wrong) 701s seem to have had 2 major problems (other than the covid period): software outsourced to India (which perhaps is still ongoing with 701s and 345s?) and the shortening of the driving cabs for SWR, which caused further mods to get right and they are now running.
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That and the units are riddled with faults that should either have never been made in the first place or testing/quality control should have found them before delivery.
 
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snowball

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RealTrains07 said:
Shame as with all telegraph articles, its locked behind a paywall.
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I can read it and I'm not a subscriber.
Another Telegraph article was mentioned in another thread a day or two ago and I could read that too.
But I don't try very often - these two are the first I've tried in ages.
 
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