Build Quality of New Models

I’ve seen some comment and discussion here and there on various threads about the quality and reliability of certain bus models being offered in the market place today, but can’t find anywhere that focuses on it, and I’m curious as to the comparisons of certain types. For example, I’ve read (often flippant) comments, mainly on social media posts and particularly surrounding the relaunch of routes or new fleets, that Yutongs are “Chinese rubbish”.

I know that many, probably most of us, are enthusiasts or regular passengers - therefore have a perception - and some of us are operators/drivers/mechanics/buyers – therefore have a first hand knowledge or at least an economic argument.

So I’ll kick off the debate by asking what the general thought train is on Yutong offerings? Are they “Chinese rubbish”, or is that coming from the uninitiated because they wear a Chinese badge? From a passenger perspective on the McGill’s network I’ve found the E12s to be pretty solid, with quite an impressive range. Granted, some seem to have standard-issue seats which make for an uncomfortable time on long journeys, but not all.

In comparison I’ve found the few BYD/ADL EVs I've travelled on to be pretty shocking in terms of being total rattleboxes at less than 6 months old, which I see seems to be a common gripe on this forum.

I’ve not been on any of the new Wright EV offerings, or the Volvo BZL/MCV (though I have been on a few new B8RLE/Evoras which seem very tight indeed), but I’d be curious to hear the thoughts and opinions of what’s out there.

I travelled on one of Whippet's Mellor Sigma 12s a few weeks back. There were a few rattles, especially from the emergency door, but in general it felt a good, solid, comfortable bus. Acceleration was very strong. I'm not sure what the situation is with Mellor, but I'd not be unhappy to see more of these out there, at least from a passenger perspective.

I've not had the opportunity to try a Yutong yet, but regarding your comment on seats, these are actually fitted in the UK, as the finishing work is done by Pelican in Castleford. It will be operator spec and seems to be one area where unfortunately most operators cut corners to save a bit of money.

Even ADL diesels turn in to rattleboxes pretty quickly so it's not a surprise their electrics suffer the same problem. It seems to be mainly down to the body design so changing the underpinnings is unlikely to improve that.

I have no "dog in the fight" so I've no real preconceptions. When I travel, ride quality is one of the things that I keep an eye out for. We do, of course, have a number of drivers who kindly contribute and their experience is markedly different. It's their workplace for 8/9 hours per day so a bit different to a passenger on there for an hour. Then again, we also have some maintenance staff and their view will be different again.

We do seem to have a number of enthusiasts whose default response is either double decker, coach or heavyweight irrespective of the operational and commercial challenge for an operator, or to say it's always better outside of Britain (clue: it isn't always). My views for FWIW as a passenger:

Yutongs are actually pretty decent. I was impressed with the ones with Go North East and thought they were reasonably well built. That is in marked contrast to the Harrogate 7900E that really disappointed me in terms of built quality - windows rattling etc.

My limited experience of the ADL/BYD is limited but, as @Teapot42 said, it seems that the same failings are evident. The days of the robust ALX400 and other earlier Alexander products seem very distant - I had an e400EV of Go North West/Bee Network that was a few months old and the build quality wasn't great. It was still better than a brand new (about 2 weeks old) diesel e200mmc of GNW-BN that had that had a rattling side panel that was so intrusive, I moved seats to put my weight against it. In one of my trip reports, I shared this photo of a three year old e400city of First West of England where the trim was flexing so much and distorting to create gaps you could stick your finger in. The only recent ADLs that I've really liked are the e400city of First Eastern Counties and the Stagecoach Gold e200mmc/e400mmc, and that's perhaps more to do with the seats than anything else.



Wrightbus were rightly regarded as a manufacturer and the Volvo B10BLE/Wright Renown was a great vehicle (except when First elected to fit a**e numbing seats). The subsequent family of Eclipses/Solars et al weren't quite as good (esp the B7L) - I was a fan of the lighter Daf based Pulsar that Arriva liked and thought it a great product. However, it was the next generation that really upset folks. The Streetlite drew immediate fire on account of their lightweight construction and ride quality - enthusiasts never like a lightweight vehicle remember. However, there were some genuine issues in that the brakes are pretty harsh and the ride can be hard. The gearbox, if not set up properly, can be jerky though I've now been on plenty that seem to have been resolved - one of Hulley's was superb. In terms of the build quality of the body, that is actually not too bad with the exception of my pet hate - the emergency door handle mechanism is designed so it rattles like hell especially when the bus is idling. I've also been on plenty of Streetdecks (I live in First territory) and not found them too bad in terms of build/comfort. I've yet to experience the latest Wright EVs with the Electroliners and Kites - that'll be sorted soon - so can't comment on them but Wright seem to be ok even if their travails before administration seemed to be reflected in some build issues (which saw some deliveries refused by Arriva and First?)

Other vehicles - not been on the BZLs but other MCV products are the Evora/B8RLEs of Stagecoach and Sanders - good solid vehicles. The Temsa Avenues that Arriva have are actually pretty good - they've done better than I thought.

The worst buses I have ever travelled upon. Well, the Daf SB220LF with Plaxton Prestige bodywork as beloved by Arriva was terrible and I remember travelling on one that was perhaps 5 years old and everything rattled. I also had a Scania Omnicity single decker of First Potteries from Hanley to Uttoxeter (it was quite elderly though) that was so bad with virtually no suspension (or so it felt) that I actually complained to First.

So Yutong decent, Wright ok and ADL not great. Just my opinions and, of course, subjective.

From a drivers perspective Wright's always were decent quality, though in recent years it did seem to go downhill, old style E200s quickly became rattleboxes, old style E400s less so, though things did IMO improve with the MMC range. The Plaxton Primo wasn't particularly well built either, nor were the Optare Excels we had. We don't have any Yutongs so I can't comment on those. MCV build quality also leaves a bit to be desired.

In response to the OP, yes, there's a lot of nonsense on social media referring to Yutongs as "Chinese rubbish", but an almost equal number of responses from those who actually work with them praising the quality of the vehicles.

My experience of EVs to travel on on a regular basis are the BYD E200/400EV, Electroliner and the Switch MetroDecker.

I find the BYD to gave excellent ride quality, probably the best out there, but they're let down by the ADL bodywork. Lots of ADL-standard rattling, and on London examples creaking around the centre door.

The Streetdeck Electroliner seems to have excellent build quality, but the ride quality isn't quite as silky smooth as BYD.

The MetroDecker is rattly and bumpy.

I wonder if the the new ADL EV integrals have better build quality. I'm not holding my breath.

Goldfish62 said:

In response to the OP, yes, there's a lot of nonsense on social media referring to Yutongs as "Chinese rubbish", but an almost equal number of responses from those who actually work with them praising the quality of the vehicles.

My experience of EVs to travel on on a regular basis are the BYD E200/400EV, Electroliner and the Switch MetroDecker.

I find the BYD to gave excellent ride quality, probably the best out there, but they're let down by the ADL bodywork. Lots of ADL-standard rattling, and on London examples creaking around the centre door.

The Streetdeck Electroliner seems to have excellent build quality, but the ride quality isn't quite as silky smooth as BYD.

The MetroDecker is rattly and bumpy.

I wonder if the the new ADL EV integrals have better build quality. I'm not holding my breath.

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I've found the same on the Bee Network example and, interesting that you mention it, the dual door mmcs that First have in Bristol/Bath are noticeably "creakier" than their single door sisters. Don't know if it's the centre door or the longer wheelbase but it's definitely intrusive.

Any discussion on quality will be subjective, and I expect views of the same vehicle type will vary depending on who you ask. Passengers, drivers, fleet engineers and company accountants will all have opinions and I strongly suspect that these won't always align. Indeed, how do you define build quality - does a bus that rattles like crazy yet is generally reliable score better than one that is solidly built and rattle free but is mechanically brittle. Passengers might rate the smooth, comfortable, rattle free bus as having better "build quality", but if the rattly, pothole-thunking bus starts on the button and has better availability statistics which is better quality? Enthusiasts might use the term "rattle boxes" for ADL products but they generally have solid reliability and good after-sales support. Continued repeat orders suggests they must be doing something right with their product.

As noted above a passenger's perception of build quality is likely to be heavily influenced by operator specification. A bus with comfy high-back seats, USB chargers, WiFi, panoramic roof, mood lighting, etc, etc can give the impression of better "quality" than the same bus built in the same factory but in "poverty spec". As a vehicle ages cleaning and maintenance standards also come more into play.

ADL products seem to come under criticism for the quality of their bodywork but this seems to vary. The example highlighted in @TheGrandWazoo's picture looks poor. Yet, I recently had opportunity to ride on several of Enviro 400MMCs operated by First in Cornwall. These are approaching eight years old and are showing some signs of "wear and tear" (and seem to be developing that distinctive 'musty bus' smell) but generally still seemed reasonably solid. Certainly the interior seemed to have worn far better than that of a similarly aged Wright Streetdeck I'd ridden a few weeks before in Brighton. Whilst I didn't look in detail at interior panel fit, etc my I overall impression was that the Cornish Enviro 400MMCs still rode acceptably well considering the condition of some of the roads and whilst the bodies had some 'creaking' from flexing over poor road surfaces there wasn't any noticeable rattling upstairs in any of the examples I travelled on. For an eight year old bus they seemed decent. I've ridden on Volvo/Wright combination deckers when at a similar age that seemed worse for ride and rattles despite having a better reputation with some (albeit that might be down to maintenance).

One recent bus that I found unexpectedly disappointing as a passenger was the fleet of Volvo BZL double deckers used by a Stagecoach in Cambridge. The electric motor seemed smooth but braking seemed harsh (across different drivers, so seemed a characteristic of the type - albeit the tendency for pedestrians to just step into the road in the centre of Cambridge perhaps contributed to the need for more sharp braking than I'm used to!) and the ride upstairs seemed too wallowy and rolling. Whilst build quality didn't seem terrible - the body didn't rattle noticeably - it did seem to creek and flex a lot and for whatever reason left me somewhat unimpressed. Indeed, I generally found the interior to be a bit disappointing; the passenger environment didn't really suggest brand-new, next generation bus and was all a bit 'meh'.

I may be musing out of the wrong window here, but a similar question to this came to mind having attended a couple of recent heritage events. It was very noticeable that despite what we may think about modern buses, there was much more engine noise audible in the "passenger compartment" of the older vehicles, and I wonder if that may well have hidden some of the squeaks and rattles that we now seem to find are inherent with more modern vehicles.

We also seem to be in something of a "pothole crisis" at the moment, and only those older than me will remember whether things really are "as bad as they've ever been" or we're just on a bit of a downward trend, but poor road surface quality also can't help with some of these things. We all know that the emergency exit handle of a Wright Streetlite will rattle when you so much as blow on it (form of the curved bodywork over function requiring an extra joint?), but it has much less to rattle about on a relatively smooth road than it does on one fairly main road in my locality, where the potholes are so large they seem to be having babies.*

Whilst there may be some criticism due to modern vehicles, we also have to look at the surroundings, the roads they are used on, and not forgetting the increasing trend towards lighter vehicles for whatever reason (or the need for the vehicle as a whole to be lighter to carry some weight it previously wouldn't have done, e.g. powered ramps where fitted, alternative propulsions, various screens, etc.). Cash trays rattle by nature, whereas previously they would have been dampened in a bag by clothing. plastic squeaks by nature when it rubs together.

Has anyone tried noise-cancelling an AEC-something-or-other and seeing what that sounds like? I'd be interested to know!

*a.k.a. potholes in potholes.

jammy36 said:

Certainly the interior seemed to have worn far better than that of a similarly aged Wright Streetdeck I'd ridden a few weeks before in Brighton. Whilst I didn't look in detail at interior panel fit, etc my I overall impression was that the Cornish Enviro 400MMCs still rode acceptably well considering the condition of some of the roads and whilst the bodies had some 'creaking' from flexing over poor road surfaces there wasn't any noticeable rattling upstairs in any of the examples I travelled on. For an eight year old bus they seemed decent. I've ridden on Volvo/Wright combination deckers when at a similar age that seemed worse for ride and rattles despite having a better reputation with some (albeit that might be down to maintenance).

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If it was one of the Brighton & Hove Streetdecks with a red interior, those are due for a major refurbishment in line with the new livery in the near future, and I would note that B&H's buses get tired quickly due to the relatively intense service for somewhere outside London. That being said, I've always found their Streetdecks to be my least favourite buses in the fleet (and I've had drivers agree), they really do bounce around all over the place on less even roads IMO. Lots of unpleasant rattling too, especially compared to the similar age B9TLs.

Attention to detail in the ongoing maintenance of the vehicle plays a large part.

I’ve picked up vehicles where the four screws of the dashboard panel are missing. If that is the standard of fittings that are plain to see, I dare not think what corners are being cut in spaces and compartments that are hidden.

The wrong screws, rivets and bolts all contribute to the noise of vehicles. You could drive a vehicle for 5 hours and feel like you’re sitting in an aviary by the end of it.

TheGrandWazoo said:

I've found the same on the Bee Network example and, interesting that you mention it, the dual door mmcs that First have in Bristol/Bath are noticeably "creakier" than their single door sisters. Don't know if it's the centre door or the longer wheelbase but it's definitely intrusive.

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On the London ones it's definitely around the centre door. But original style E200s are absolutely horrendous in that respect as well. The centre doors look and sound like they're about to fall out at times.

I think taking a step back, we need to ask the question why would a manufacturer downturn the quality of their product. The reality is many fold but primarily it comes down to cost; A well built bus will be heavier (eg due to the use of thicker materials, fixings etc), using more fuel and more costly to put together (more fixings = more labour, better quality materials cost more to buy). The operators are cost constrained so are pushing for lighter, cheaper to buy and cheaper to run buses designed for a c15 year life hence manufacturers value engineering products. While squeaks and rattles are annoying they probably aren't enough to drive passengers to other modes of transport and conversely something engineered like a Rolls Royce is not going to drive people out of their cars on to a bus

From the types of vehicles I have been on in South Yorkshire here are my opinions:
First:
Volvo B9TL Gemini:
very little rattles & still feel very solid when travelling on them. Only one seems to be the rear upstairs emergency exit window. Oddly the ex Glasgow versions have a few more rattles than the more native similar aged versions.
Wright StreetDeck:
The earlier built ones, 64 plate demonstrators & blue 65 plates are very rattly & seem poorly built. One of the 65 plates I went on when only a couple of days old had a badly rattling emergency exit rear upstairs window. The newer 18 plates feel a bit better but the ride quality seems worse than a B9TL.
Wright Streetlite:
Mostly poorly built with the emergency exit door problem. The SL16 plates rattly alarmingly on idle & at times feel like they were thrown together at the last minute on a Friday night. Most have a poor ride with the jerkiness a bit of a problem on hilly terrain making for a poor journey.
Volvo B7RLE:
Better than a B7L (can’t get much worse) but are picking up a few rattles. An annoying part is the roof panel near the front between the front & stopping blind can be rattly & along with panels for the air conditioning pod.
ALX 400:
Developed quite a few rattles & creaks over time with wobbly windows & creaking upstairs floors quite prevalent towards the end.
Enviro 400:
Native 14 plate versions seem ok, the ex Manchester 12 plate versions have more rattles & squeaks.

Stagecoach:
Enviro 400:
A mixed bag, Trident chassis versions have quite a few rattles & some of the SN56 plates roof leaks in rain. Scania versions rattles seem to be generated more by the different ride quality of this batch.
Enviro 400 MMC:
Quite a number of rattles & squeaks on these on both standard & gold spec.
Enviro 300:
MAN versions have a number of squeaks & rattles plus a rattly emergency exit door.
Scania versions seem to have more rattles & squeaks than most plus very rattly emergency exit doors.
ADL chassis versions can be very rattly.
Enviro 200 MMC:
Each length has a number of squeaks & rattles throughout the journey. 26021 on one particular X19 journey had a rear interior panel rattling & banging throughout the journey making it unpleasant.
Enviro 200’s:
can rattle quite badly on idle & make quite a noise from the engine area.

One thing I remember of ADL Pointer Darts is when they got older the rear seat would move up & down when going over bumps.

One thing I notice on Stagecoach single deckers is the drivers cab door seems to rattle quite often & seems a main cause of rattling.

I don't have much to add, but the new Wright electrokites are a lot less rattly (so far) than the Streetlites they replaced. The Yutong E series seems better than both of them though.

Goldfish62 said:

In response to the OP, yes, there's a lot of nonsense on social media referring to Yutongs as "Chinese rubbish", but an almost equal number of responses from those who actually work with them praising the quality of the vehicles.

My experience of EVs to travel on on a regular basis are the BYD E200/400EV, Electroliner and the Switch MetroDecker.

I find the BYD to gave excellent ride quality, probably the best out there, but they're let down by the ADL bodywork. Lots of ADL-standard rattling, and on London examples creaking around the centre door.

The Streetdeck Electroliner seems to have excellent build quality, but the ride quality isn't quite as silky smooth as BYD.

The MetroDecker is rattly and bumpy.

I wonder if the the new ADL EV integrals have better build quality. I'm not holding my breath.

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It seems to be just the popular thing to refer to anything modern as “Chinese rubbish”, “Plastic rubbish” etc, and to fit in, various people join in

Everything that isn’t the most heavy weight Volvo or Scania seems to be dismissed out right by many

My local operator, Newport Transport, have been running Yutongs for over three years now so I have plenty of experience of them as a passenger. I find them more than acceptably comfortable for an urban bus and ok for longer inter-urban journeys too. The build quality seems good and even the earliest examples are showing little or no signs of their age.

The Chinese can manufacture to any standard specified and paid for. Not all their products are cheap tat you see on eBay or in discount shops.

From an Aberdeen perspective i can also vouch for the quality of the Yutongs, they're also really popular with drivers and mechanics. Additionally local independent Watermill Coaches operates a number of Yutong TC9s on service work within Aberdeenshire and i've also found them to be really nice small coaches, certainly far better than an Agricultural Atego or any of the van derived products that seem to flood the small coach market these days.

I know its a somewhat controversial product but i've also been impressed by the Iveco Daily based Ilsebus I-City Max. Certainly far nicer than the equivalent sized Mellor Strata or Optare Solos.

In contrast the build quality on recent vehicles from ADL is truly appalling. Stagecoach Highlands have had nothing but issue after issue with their Enviro400MMCs, to the point that there is now a service level agreement with ADL. Some of the batch were delivered with coolant/oil leaks and seats/interior trim missing, at present the entire batch are being monitored due to issues with the starter motors arcing. The BYD/Enviro400EVs at Bluebird are also pretty abysmal.

The longer tri-axle Plaxton coaches are very bad for roof wobble, it seems to stem from there not being enough structural rigidity over the rear end. The offside windows towards the rear on the Interdecks are very bad for shattering out of the blue and it tends to be on the examples where the "roof wobble" is worst. I was on one of the Perth based 72 plate Elites when only a few months old and it already had very severe roof wobble and generally felt very poorly put together for what was essentially a brand new coach.

I must say I was very impressed with the Yutong's on the Leicester Park & Ride service, felt very well built. Slightly less new model now but the integral BYD K9s on Nottingham's Medilink felt well built too, much better than the electric Optare's that worked the route before them.

As somebody with chronic back trouble, and who cannot use most of our hideous trains because of their disgusting seats that leave me crippled, I use buses, and I tend to judge by whether I can still walk when I alight, as well as the more normal criteria (rattles, etc).
I've travelled a lot on McGill's Yutongs, with companions who are not "bus people" and we have all been impressed. I've had similar experiences with Yutongs elsewhere, so I don't hold with emotive remarks about Chinese rubbish. They certainly do me no harm.
I have had the same experiences as others on E200s, but I usually find the E400MMC a decent bus to ride on, and I have always found the same round here with the VDL double decks. The buses I truly detest more than all others are Lothian's appalling Volvo 7900s (1-50) which I think are the worst heaps I have ever ridden on in a lifetime of bus travel.

Bedford OB said:

As somebody with chronic back trouble, and who cannot use most of our hideous trains because of their disgusting seats that leave me crippled, I use buses, and I tend to judge by whether I can still walk when I alight, as well as the more normal criteria (rattles, etc).
I've travelled a lot on McGill's Yutongs, with companions who are not "bus people" and we have all been impressed. I've had similar experiences with Yutongs elsewhere, so I don't hold with emotive remarks about Chinese rubbish. They certainly do me no harm.
I have had the same experiences as others on E200s, but I usually find the E400MMC a decent bus to ride on, and I have always found the same round here with the VDL double decks. The buses I truly detest more than all others are Lothian's appalling Volvo 7900s (1-50) which I think are the worst heaps I have ever ridden on in a lifetime of bus travel.

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I certainly agree about the Volvo 7900. They were awful things at First Berkshire, whereas the Wright or MCV bodied B5LH is a much pleasanter bus to travel on.

jammy36 said:

Any discussion on quality will be subjective, and I expect views of the same vehicle type will vary depending on who you ask. Passengers, drivers, fleet engineers and company accountants will all have opinions and I strongly suspect that these won't always align. Indeed, how do you define build quality - does a bus that rattles like crazy yet is generally reliable score better than one that is solidly built and rattle free but is mechanically brittle. Passengers might rate the smooth, comfortable, rattle free bus as having better "build quality", but if the rattly, pothole-thunking bus starts on the button and has better availability statistics which is better quality? Enthusiasts might use the term "rattle boxes" for ADL products but they generally have solid reliability and good after-sales support. Continued repeat orders suggests they must be doing something right with their product.

As noted above a passenger's perception of build quality is likely to be heavily influenced by operator specification. A bus with comfy high-back seats, USB chargers, WiFi, panoramic roof, mood lighting, etc, etc can give the impression of better "quality" than the same bus built in the same factory but in "poverty spec". As a vehicle ages cleaning and maintenance standards also come more into play.

ADL products seem to come under criticism for the quality of their bodywork but this seems to vary. The example highlighted in @TheGrandWazoo's picture looks poor. Yet, I recently had opportunity to ride on several of Enviro 400MMCs operated by First in Cornwall. These are approaching eight years old and are showing some signs of "wear and tear" (and seem to be developing that distinctive 'musty bus' smell) but generally still seemed reasonably solid. Certainly the interior seemed to have worn far better than that of a similarly aged Wright Streetdeck I'd ridden a few weeks before in Brighton. Whilst I didn't look in detail at interior panel fit, etc my I overall impression was that the Cornish Enviro 400MMCs still rode acceptably well considering the condition of some of the roads and whilst the bodies had some 'creaking' from flexing over poor road surfaces there wasn't any noticeable rattling upstairs in any of the examples I travelled on. For an eight year old bus they seemed decent. I've ridden on Volvo/Wright combination deckers when at a similar age that seemed worse for ride and rattles despite having a better reputation with some (albeit that might be down to maintenance).

One recent bus that I found unexpectedly disappointing as a passenger was the fleet of Volvo BZL double deckers used by a Stagecoach in Cambridge. The electric motor seemed smooth but braking seemed harsh (across different drivers, so seemed a characteristic of the type - albeit the tendency for pedestrians to just step into the road in the centre of Cambridge perhaps contributed to the need for more sharp braking than I'm used to!) and the ride upstairs seemed too wallowy and rolling. Whilst build quality didn't seem terrible - the body didn't rattle noticeably - it did seem to creek and flex a lot and for whatever reason left me somewhat unimpressed. Indeed, I generally found the interior to be a bit disappointing; the passenger environment didn't really suggest brand-new, next generation bus and was all a bit 'meh'.

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Oddly and slightly off topic for a moment, My employer has a number of brand new Volvo cars and braking harshly and wallowing badly at speed too seems to be affecting them too. Perhaps it’s a new Volvo thing?

I’ll also agree with the comment regarding the mixed build quality from ADL - we’ve got a load of E200 MMC’s around here and I’ve barely noticed any rattling from them. Some creaking around the large windows behind the cab but that’s about it - and our roads are absolutely horrendous.

Teapot42 said:

I've not had the opportunity to try a Yutong yet, but regarding your comment on seats, these are actually fitted in the UK, as the finishing work is done by Pelican in Castleford.

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Whether true or not I don't know, but I'm told that some of the Yutongs at McGill's were pressed into service for COP26 so they didn't actually get "UK spec" seats from Pelican. Might be absolute rubbish but I could be sure their fleet has different seat types...

Some really interesting perspectives here. Seems ADL has just been getting worse. I know I used a BYD chassis as my initial basis but I've also been on some E200MMCs and found them pretty horrendous for, at the time, very "new" buses.

I should also have mentioned the Volvo 7900e that I've been on from Stagecoach Western, which I was very surprised that it felt so flimsy. I expected more from Vovlo.

I was also told that the Mercedes eCitaro totally failed to impress during its time with McGill's. I didn't get to travel on it during its time so can't comment, but it certainly didn't win any order as subsequent McGill's EVs have all been Yutong.

fgwrich said:

Perhaps it’s a new Volvo thing?

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Volvo buses are made by AB Volvo.

Volvo Cars is a separate company which was spun off in 1999.

Volvo Cars has been separate from its former parent conglomerate and producer of heavy trucks, buses, and construction equipment (among others) AB Volvo since 1999 when AB Volvo sold its automobile division Volvo Cars to Ford Motor Company.[2] On 28 March 2010, Ford sold Volvo Cars at a loss to Geely for $1.8 billion; the deal closed in August 2010.[3][4] Volvo Cars was publicly listed on the Nasdaq Stockholm stock exchange in 2021, though Geely still retains majority ownership.

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fgwrich said:

Perhaps it’s a new Volvo thing?

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The Volvo double deck B5TL & B5LH and single deck B8RLE that Lothian have seem to be ok for braking. The single deck B7RLE are a bit jerky as the retarder cuts in though.

ClydeCoaster said:

Whether true or not I don't know, but I'm told that some of the Yutongs at McGill's were pressed into service for COP26 so they didn't actually get "UK spec" seats from Pelican. Might be absolute rubbish but I could be sure their fleet has different seat types...

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That is correct. The initial batch came with ‘standard’ Yutong seats, with later batches having seats to McGill’s specification. This was largely down to availability at the time (post-covid) and the desire to have them prior to COP26.

Stan Drews said:

That is correct. The initial batch came with ‘standard’ Yutong seats, with later batches having seats to McGill’s specification. This was largely down to availability at the time (post-covid) and the desire to have them prior to COP26.

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Was it not the other way round? The initial batch (for the 26) have Civic V3 seats which up to that point would've been the standard specification for new McGill's vehicles based on the Enviro200MMCs ordered in 2019, the subsequent vehicles for the 23 and 38 along with those delivered in 2023 have the Yutong Seats.

Jordan Adam said:

Was it not the other way round? The initial batch (for the 26) have Civic V3 seats which up to that point would've been the standard specification for new McGill's vehicles based on the Enviro200MMCs ordered in 2019, the subsequent vehicles for the 23 and 38 along with those delivered in 2023 have the Yutong Seats.

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Could be, but whichever way round, it was down to the availability of the preferred seats.

I was travelling on First StreetLite 63059 on Sheffield 95 this evening, the emergency exit door was rattling as usual, half the door took an age to open, the bus suspension was rather low on the offside & there was large piece of panelling loose above the driver’s front windscreen within the cab area. Not great for a 63 plate.

We have some bus routes round here converted to ADL single deck electric ones from their old diesel equivalents.

Smooth ride and acceleration as you'd expect for electric buses (although some drivers do not seem to understand to get a shift on, and drive at 10mph), but my god do these get shaken to pieces on some stretches of road.
Plus, one or two of them have had bodge job repairs on the interior panels where someone has cut them open to get at whatever is behind them and stuck them back together with gaffer tape or sealant. Combined with the above road conditions, I saw a fairly new bus (71/72 plate, it wasn't more than a couple of years old) with a panel bouncing up and down at the back.

lookapigeon said:

We have some bus routes round here converted to ADL single deck electric ones from their old diesel equivalents.

Smooth ride and acceleration as you'd expect for electric buses (although some drivers do not seem to understand to get a shift on, and drive at 10mph), but my god do these get shaken to pieces on some stretches of road.
Plus, one or two of them have had bodge job repairs on the interior panels where someone has cut them open to get at whatever is behind them and stuck them back together with gaffer tape or sealant. Combined with the above road conditions, I saw a fairly new bus (71/72 plate, it wasn't more than a couple of years old) with a panel bouncing up and down at the back.

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Were these on BYD running gear?