Out of date railcards: what should the policy be, and what measures could be taken to avoid problems in future?

nw1 said:

These things can happen, and to think that it's a "lack of responsibility" demonstrates lack of understanding that other people's minds might work differently. I don't see why people should be threatened with legal action for honest mistakes; that seems a very authoritarian way of running society.

Asking the customer to pay the outstanding balance for the under-paid fares during the period of invalidity where there is evidence of such fares being under-paid, however, would be quite acceptable and the right thing for the railway to do. A Penalty Fare or other non-criminal fixed charge on top of that would probably be acceptable. But starting criminal proceedings? Absolutely not.

I would also say that the system needs to be designed so that it is impossible to buy a railcard-discounted ticket without presenting (either in-person or electronically) a railcard valid on the intended day of travel. Do that, and the whole problem goes away.

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Yeah I've gone back and forth on this issue of insisting the passenger pays full price for the journey they're making (and any others the railway can prove they made). On reflection I don't think that's the way to go.

Either it was an honest mistake and you backdate the renewal and charge an admin fee, in which case that retrospectively regularises the discounts the person mistakenly obtained (or rather, mistakenly failed to pay for the railcard to obtain them properly). If the backdating is too difficult then I wouldn't hold that against honest passengers and I still wouldn't pursue those 'losses' (and I put that in quotes because I'm sceptical about how real these perceived losses are).The passenger then gets a small benefit in terms of a later expiry date than they should have had when they renew. But that will invariably be wiped out by the admin fee.

Or, there is evidence it was deliberate or grossly negligent of the passenger (e.g. it's more than six months out of date, they're not eligible for it) or they don't cooperate or don't wish to renew the railcard. In that case I wouldn't even invent a new way of dealing this because we have ways: usually a penalty fare. I realise that comes with a threat of prosecution (I would prefer it if penalty fares didn't) but, as threats of criminal prosecution go, it's at the least scary end of the spectrum unless the person genuinely can't pay the money to make it go away. And you can, of course, use the appeal process to buy time to stump up the money even if they have you bang to rights.

Trying retrospectively to collect excess fares for previous journeys is, I suggest, something that would need an investigation after which, again, I'd rather it were a civil rather than a criminal procedure to pursue that, but under the current arrangements that's where a really serious threat of prosecution would kick in. I'm all for those losses being pursued if somebody has been wrongly claiming a railcard discount over a substantial period so has underpaid by a significant sum.

nw1 said:

These things can happen, and to think that it's a "lack of responsibility" demonstrates lack of understanding that other people's minds might work differently. I don't see why people should be threatened with legal action for honest mistakes; that seems a very authoritarian way of running society.

Asking the customer to pay the outstanding balance for the under-paid fares during the period of invalidity where there is evidence of such fares being under-paid, however, would be quite acceptable and the right thing for the railway to do. A Penalty Fare or other non-criminal fixed charge on top of that would probably be acceptable. But starting criminal proceedings? Absolutely not.

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And if someone engages with the process that’s what happens. Any perusal of this board will show that settlement offers are the norm for people referred for having an out of date railcard.

Brissle Girl said:

And if someone engages with the process that’s what happens. Any perusal of this board will show that settlement offers are the norm for people referred for having an out of date railcard.

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But it's still putting them through the stress of the threat of legal action. That is a big, big deal for most people.

It should be an on-the-spot penalty instead.

nw1 said:

But it's still putting them through the stress of the threat of legal action. That is a big, big deal for most people.

It should be an on-the-spot penalty instead.

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So, based on that what is the penalty you propose? My railcard expires in September, what happens when I am caught with a discounted ticket next March having 'forgotten' to renew?

Haywain said:

So, based on that what is the penalty you propose? My railcard expires in September, what happens when I am caught with a discounted ticket next March having 'forgotten' to renew?

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I don't know: £50? £100?

Not everyone "forgets" to renew, some forget to renew.

It might mean some people who deliberately use an out-of-date railcard avoid legal action, but I think that should just have to be accepted.

Far better than authoritarian threats of legal action for those who make an honest mistake.

If there is a non-criminal penalty charge applied, the railway can hedge its bets, so to speak.

Bletchleyite said:

I think most people would understand that offences relating to the safe driving of a motor vehicle (with which you can kill someone) are very different from those relating to failure to pay a train fare

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It isn’t a perfect comparison, but I thought your objection was to the principle of money being taken in exchange for discontinuing prosecutions? So it seems you are happy with that arrangement for some offences. As such, you can presumably see how others might also agree with it for railway ticketing offences, albeit you personally do not.

Bletchleyite said:

it's lesser than that, and just harms the TOC's pocket).

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I’m not sure that’s true for a subsidised industry such as the railway where the operators no longer take revenue risk. Indeed it was reported on here (and I’ve heard confirmed elsewhere) that the DfT have been pushing TOCs to increase revenue protection activity. The taxpayer is ultimately on the hook for reduced revenue.

Ultimately fare evasion deprives the system of revenue, which the government can then use as an excuse to cut services/raise fares/underpay staff etc. so it’s in the interest of everyone concerned with the railway to minimise it.

redreni said:

The view that we should only have criminal offences on the books if they are needed is incompatible with the view that once they are on the books, anyone wanting rid of them has the burden of proving that we don't need them. That's how you end up with ridiculous offences remaining in statute long after they cease to be needed.

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It isn’t just my view, it’s the reality of the situation. Offences will only be removed if the government decides to change the law. They will only do so if they consider it politically expedient, and there’s scant evidence that repealing railway ticketing offences is high on anyone’s priority list.

redreni said:

The mere fact respectable people want rid of the offence and assert that we don't need it should, in my view, trigger the ongoing duty on those who advocate for it to say why it is needed and provide evidence.

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Who is actually advocating for ticketing offences to be decriminalised, though? Nobody outside of this forum, as far as I’m aware. As such, the status quo is highly unlikely to change.

redreni said:

For travelling on an expired Railcard it is not at all obvious why you can't issue a charge notice (similar to a Parking Charge Notice you might get for parking on private land when you shouldn't) which can be pursued as a civil matter if it isn't paid, settled or dropped by the train company.

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The availability of a criminal sanction doesn’t prevent the TOC from following the civil route.

nw1 said:

But it's still putting them through the stress of the threat of legal action. That is a big, big deal for most people.

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Easily avoided by simply ensuring the railcards are used correctly!

43066 said:

Easily avoided by simply ensuring the railcards are used correctly!

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So have you never made an honest mistake, in any area of life?

I suspect not: and if you did, would you like to have been threatened with legal action?

Thought not.

The way of dealing with honest mistakes is non-criminal penalties. Like parking fixed charges, library fines, and so on.

nw1 said:

I don't know: £50? £100?

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Thanks. I look forward to that being introduced as it will save me wasting money buying a railcard.

Haywain said:

Thanks. I look forward to that being introduced as it will save me wasting money buying a railcard.

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It's up to the railway to prevent tickets being bought if the user cannot produce the required railcard. And to check railcards onboard. If the railway physically allow people to use tickets without appropriate railcards, then to be quite honest, they only have themselves to blame if they lose revenue.

I really don't understand why some people on here seem to think it's acceptable to threaten legal action for honest mistakes.

I can only assume that some people are so utterly, utterly perfect that they never, ever make unintentional mistakes.

nw1 said:

So have you never made an honest mistake, in any area of life?

I suspect not: and when you did, would you like to have been threatened with legal action?

Thought not.

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Yes. Speeding as noted above (I honestly thought I was in a 40 zone, but was in a 30). I was threatened with legal action, in the sense that I would have been taken to a magistrates court if I hadn’t paid the fixed penalty. I certainly didn’t complain about it, or ask for the law to be changed.

The vast majority of those incorrectly using railcards also aren’t making honest mistakes….

nw1 said:

It's up to the railway to prevent tickets being bought if the user cannot produce the required railcard. If they don't do that, then really, they only have themselves to blame for lax security.

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It’s the taxpayer not “the railway” who is ultimately on the hook for lost revenue, and there’s no feasible or cost effective way for an open system such as the railway to be patrolled 24/7, hence there needs to be a deterrent. Another (simpler, likely revenue positive) solution could be simply withdrawing railcard discounts altogether - so be careful what you wish for!

If people choose to use the railway, and choose to benefit from railcard discounts, it’s also up to them to use them correctly - most people I know would agree with that.

43066 said:

Yes. Speeding as noted above (I honestly thought I was in a 40 zone, but was in a 30). I was threatened with legal action, in the sense that I would have been taken to a magistrates court if I hadn’t paid the fixed penalty. I certainly didn’t complain about it, or ask for the law to be changed.

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If you didn't pay the fixed penalty. That's the crux of the matter. Note that I have advocated the use of fixed penalties for forgetting the expiry date of your railcard, too.

That (refusing to pay a penalty) is an intentional action and is thus completely different.

43066 said:

The vast majority of those incorrectly using railcards also aren’t making honest mistakes….

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Evidence for that?

43066 said:

It’s the taxpayer not “the railway” who is ultimately on the hook for lost revenue, and there’s no feasible or cost effective way for an open system such as the railway to be patrolled 24/7, hence there needs to be a deterrent.

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More on-board ticket checks? Requirement of the railcard to be presented at the time of purchase (in the case of online, via a railcard ID and password)?

nw1 said:

If you didn't pay the fixed penalty. That's the crux of the matter. Note that I have advocated the use of fixed penalties for forgetting the expiry date of your railcard, too.

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How about forgetting the expiry date of your MOT? That will almost certainly be a criminal offence.

I gets lots of reminders about my MOT - from RAC, Halfords, etc etc.
Also the DVLA reminds me about my car tax. The National Trust reminds me about my membership, home insurance about my, er, home insurance, etc. etc.

Is it a deliberate policy NOT to remind those about their railcard?

Western Sunset said:

I gets lots of reminders about my MOT - from RAC, Halfords, etc etc.
Also the DVLA reminds me about my car tax. The National Trust reminds me about my membership, home insurance about my, er, home insurance, etc. etc.

Is it a deliberate policy NOT to remind those about their railcard?

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You don’t get an automatic reminder from the government though. If you happen to get one from a third party, that’s just a useful facility they offer as a service. Its the government, through DVLA or police which will prosecute you.

My solution - which isn't intended to be perfect - would be to add a symbol or letter to ticketing to indicated "railcard validated".

If buying via Trainline or other retailers, you can have your railcard on your profile, and within its validity tickets are then marked as validated, and renewal reminders automatically generated. If you don't have a profile, you will be asked - at each purchase - to give the railcard number for validation. However it will still be possible to force through ticket purchase without these details, but the ticket then issued will be marked (perhaps purely digitally) as "unvalidated".

A RPI coming across an unvalidated ticket will know to check railcards more carefully - an incentive to keep the profile up to date. A validated railcard may still get a spot check or gateline check, but with a presumption that the passenger probably has a valid railcard.

If you attempt to use an out of date railcard, non existent, 16-17 instead of 16-25, and unvalidated then you are for the high jump. This effectively makes online sales closer to ticket office sales when the railcard may well be checked.

Brissle Girl said:

How about forgetting the expiry date of your MOT? That will almost certainly be a criminal offence.

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This has more serious safety consequences so is a bit different. Even still, the deal should be that the Government writes to remind you about it. It's irresponsible for the Government not to. For safety reasons, the Government should - presumably - be trying to actively stop people missing their MOT by informing them - not prosecute them after the event.

A TV licence is perhaps a similar example to a railcard, but you get a lot of reminders about that. So it's unlikely someone will just "forget" to renew their TV licence. You don't get such reminders about a railcard.

Pushpit said:

My solution - which isn't intended to be perfect - would be to add a symbol or letter to ticketing to indicated "railcard validated".

If buying via Trainline or other retailers, you can have your railcard on your profile, and within its validity tickets are then marked as validated, and renewal reminders automatically generated. If you don't have a profile, you will be asked - at each purchase - to give the railcard number for validation. However it will still be possible to force through ticket purchase without these details, but the ticket then issued will be marked (perhaps purely digitally) as "unvalidated".

A RPI coming across an unvalidated ticket will know to check railcards more carefully - an incentive to keep the profile up to date. A validated railcard may still get a spot check or gateline check, but with a presumption that the passenger probably has a valid railcard.

If you attempt to use an out of date railcard, non existent, 16-17 instead of 16-25, and unvalidated then you are for the high jump. This effectively makes online sales closer to ticket office sales when the railcard may well be checked.

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Sounds good to me.

43066 said:

It isn’t just my view, it’s the reality of the situation. Offences will only be removed if the government decides to change the law. They will only do so if they consider it politically expedient, and there’s scant evidence that repealing railway ticketing offences is high on anyone’s priority list.



Who is actually advocating for ticketing offences to be decriminalised, though? Nobody outside of this forum, as far as I’m aware. As such, the status quo is highly unlikely to change.

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Indeed, but I was endeavouring to address the question in the thread title i.e. what should the policy be?

If I led an organisation that was expected to prosecute people for offences I didn't think even needed to exist, it would be my policy to lobby the government to decriminalise those offences. While I'm sure that won't happen, perhaps we can agree that if the people who run the TOCs were to take that line, that would at least be enough to start a conversation.

Haywain said:

So, based on that what is the penalty you propose? My railcard expires in September, what happens when I am caught with a discounted ticket next March having 'forgotten' to renew?

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I accept that a very long interval between the expiry date and the date the passenger is found to be travelling on an expired railcard could indicate a reduced likelihood that it is an honest mistake.

On the other hand, in the absence of any reminder service such as you get for almost all subscriptions when they need to be renewed, the checking of the railcard will be all that reminds the customer that it has expired.

On the assumption that people who buy railcards tend to travel fairly regularly (else why would they have a railcard), the TOCs ought surely to look in the mirror when they ask themselves why it might often take months for an expired railcard to be detected.

As mentioned on another recent thread, setting ticket barriers to reject railcard-discounted tickets so that a manual check can be performed certainly doesn't work - those checks are simply never carried out. It might be helpful if they were: if the customer were told their railcard had expired before they'd started their journey then they could at least endeavour to sort that out without anybody threatening to prosecute them unless they paid a fairly hefty sum of money to dispose of the matter.

Joe Paxton said:

That would make it impossible to buy a Railcard-discounted cheap Advance ticket for travel say some weeks or months ahead and leave buying the Railcard until closer to the date of travel.

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You’ll get the chance to try it soon

Brissle Girl said:

You don’t get an automatic reminder from the government though. If you happen to get one from a third party, that’s just a useful facility they offer as a service. Its the government, through DVLA or police which will prosecute you.

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A tangent but :You dont, but you can register on the government website to get a reminder.

simonw said:

A tangent but :You dont, but you can register on the government website to get a reminder.

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Also, as the DVLA remind about car tax, one has to have a valid MOT to get said tax. Anyway, I'm probably digressing...

Point is, if there's the will, then folks could be reminded about their railcards.

43066 said:

Yes. Speeding as noted above (I honestly thought I was in a 40 zone, but was in a 30). I was threatened with legal action, in the sense that I would have been taken to a magistrates court if I hadn’t paid the fixed penalty. I certainly didn’t complain about it, or ask for the law to be changed.

The vast majority of those incorrectly using railcards also aren’t making honest mistakes….

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Presumably you were only given a fixed penalty for the occasion you were actually caught speeding though, they didn't offer an out of court settlement of £100 for each time you've been driving in the last year plus an admin fee then threaten to prosecute you for careless driving (how else could you not know what the speed limit was?) if you didn't pay up?

Western Sunset said:

Point is, if there's the will, then folks could be reminded about their railcards.

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Indeed. Either when due expire or at the point a railcard discounted ticket is purchased. What's missing to enable that will is the accompanying 'ker-ching' sound.