LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
Most of that will have to go to open tender, or the other manufacturers will object.
A few more 345s would probably be OK.
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Potential up to 2,000 job losses at Alstom Derby
- Thread starter Snow1964
- Start date
A few more 345s would probably be OK.
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Nym
Established Member
The contractors have gone home.
RR Production will cover a fair bit off of the council ever let them expand the site.
The useage of the site longer term, industrial use is out with all of DCCs idiotic traffic requirements.
Housing space you can’t flood the market that quickly, the Nightingdale site is taking car of that area nicely, flood more land in and it will push the price too low.
Industrial, just nope.
GBR headquarters, maybe.
Sell the site to someone like LCR to keep medium industrial railway useage and shove GBR on there too… seems sensible
RR Production will cover a fair bit off of the council ever let them expand the site.
The useage of the site longer term, industrial use is out with all of DCCs idiotic traffic requirements.
Housing space you can’t flood the market that quickly, the Nightingdale site is taking car of that area nicely, flood more land in and it will push the price too low.
Industrial, just nope.
GBR headquarters, maybe.
Sell the site to someone like LCR to keep medium industrial railway useage and shove GBR on there too… seems sensible
RealTrains07
Established Member
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- 1,768
Networkers arent 35 - 40 yet, neither are the turbos.
Its the 15x which needs priority rather than handing out contracts for sake of keeping factories open
Soon is the key word, not now, and another gap behind.
If Derby had won the Nexus 555 contract being built by Stadler, the DLR B23 contract being built by CAF or the Piccadilly Line contract being built by Siemens, the conversations about bringing forward orders wouldn't be arising.
Derby may not win the 15x replacement orders, or orders for Turbo replacement, or orders for Networker replacement, even if they are brought forward.
Maybe, but Alstom doesn't necessarily appear to have a product ready and waiting to be built.
YorkRailFan
On Moderation
It's more about job loss and the knock-on affect of Derby closing and Hitachi teasing the closure of Newton Aycliffe. It would send a message to other manufacturers that the UK is not a stable market to set up shop in.
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
Alstom responded with
https://twitter.com/AlstomUK/status/1780254341162549744
They could have given them that order in January as originally promised by Harper if they wanted to save Litchurch Lane. Not entirely sure how this will help now and suspect much of the work will take place at Widnes if it does come.
Trainman40083
Member
Maybe Widnes will be fully committed with refurbishment work.
gabrielhj07
Member
If so it would be silly to mention Derby by name in the tweet.
Press announcement tonight (16.04.24) that 10 Class 345s are being ordered for TfL Elizabeth line with work due to start in 2025, although no buisness plan has been submitted by TfL yet - this is not seen as a problem. To tide the plant over between completing what is on hand/stored to be finished (Class 720, 730, 701 cars) work will be transferred from other Alstom plants. It remains to be seen what exactly this is !! Presumably 10 additional 345s is going to mean 10 additional sidings somewhere to accomodate them (and additional drivers to drive them) - it dosen't end simply with the purchase of the trains !
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
source?
Alstom: Potential new orders for struggling train firm
The train firm says it is in "intense" talks with the government and Transport for London.
www.bbc.co.uk
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
This Telegraph article looks fairly convincing.
Looks like the Treasury has agreed on 10x9-car 345s, but no price is agreed yet.
TfL to invent a business case.
Looks like the Treasury has agreed on 10x9-car 345s, but no price is agreed yet.
TfL to invent a business case.
HSTEd
Veteran Member
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- 16,755
I very much doubt Alstom will give a "competitive price" in return for 90 vehicles if it comes with all that baggage added on.
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
They should have ordered these at the start of the year now expecting Alstom to keep the price could be an interesting conversation given the overheads there must be in holding onto the workforce and the whole building for maybe a year before assembly could restart although i guess Alston see SE EMU replacement as the prize here. Anyhow some progress and now spotlight will move to Newton Aycliffe.
evergreenadam
Member
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- 268
Wonder how the 10 trains will be utilised. Extending the Paddington terminators to Old Oak Common and possibly further out?
HSTEd
Veteran Member
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The OOC station project had been expected to lead to a requirement for additional trains as all Paddington terminators are extended, yes.
There are already too many Eliz Line trains, I count the number still in the sidings at Old Oak depot as I pass in the peak (as I have written before), often there have been 10 in there. One wonders what they are going to do with them all. Presumably nobody at the DfT commutes in on this line to notice.
I also can't see how it "supports 15,000 jobs in the supply chain" if only a trickle of trains are being built.
Extending all the Paddington terminators to Old Oak Common requires a lot of units. The ten units are the one order that makes sense for the government. The decision to delay HS2 opening to Euston makes more Crossrail units necessary and it should be done while compatible units can be built.
Telegraph is reporting that the 10 units will start construction in first half of 2025. It seems Alstom can afford to mothball or find alternative work until then which is a decent outcome for the taxpayer.
But when you look at the diagrams and that just isn’t possible. There are 65 diagrams that aren’t stabled for 70 trains. Almost all of those diagrams include working at the same time as each other. That’s 90%ish usage, higher than other fleets are managing.
Last time I went past there were about 5 in Old Oak Common.
The above being said, a lot of units just isn’t true. You’re adding 10 minutes to 50% of diagrams (Plus technically a few on the Western ones to stop). That’s a few units at best.
Regardless when the original order was made it was stated it included trains to run to OOC when completed, so the idea it isn’t possible to run the service is ridiculous. It’s far more likely these trains are to run extra core services to deal with more passengers.
Snow1964
Established Member
I can't be bothered to trawl back through all the TfL Board minutes, and find the link, but 2 or 3 years ago wanted extra 5 for extending the Westbourne Park terminators to Old Oak Common.
Reading other recent news articles, seems Alstom wanted 10 trains minimum (of any type), so if it agreed that it is 10 extra 345s then it is 5 more than TfL asked for, so presumably will either have more spares or option to enhance a bit of service.
Regarding sidings, there will be 4 Elizabeth line platforms at Old Oak so at quiet times could use 1 or 2 of these to stable trains, similarly could use the 3 reversing sidings at Westbourne Park for stabling if not needed for reversals.
Until there is a formal announcement, I am not going to speculate further, because it might be a mix, eg 5 345s (if that was what TfL wanted) and something else (to meet Alstoms min 10 trains) eg more 730s (if this is a distress purchase who knows what face saving solution has been found, could be anything from extending electrification to Worcester as example). Harder politically to give them all to London.
One thing I am sure of is if talked had failed, neither Mark Harper or Alstom boss would have been posing for photos and posting it on X (twitter).
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RUK
Member
Might the extra slack in the Class 345 fleet once the new trains are introduced mean that units could then be taken out of service to retro-fit them with plug sockets and USB charging, as the newer Aventras have? That could provide a bit of continuing work in the future for Alstom.
The original contract had an option for 18 more trains. 5 have already been taken up, and now it seems that 10 more will be. So Crossrail must still have originally envisiaged that there would be capacity to store another 3 trains on the network.
The original contract had an option for 18 more trains. 5 have already been taken up, and now it seems that 10 more will be. So Crossrail must still have originally envisiaged that there would be capacity to store another 3 trains on the network.
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LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
I expect GWR will be lobbying for more trains to compensate for stopping all their services at OOC, with journey times extended as a result.
Nym
Established Member
So Alstom is backed into a corner to either provide a the fleet at a loss, or actually cover their costs and be told by the DfT that they’re too expensive very publicly and the site will close because of the greedy French.
When in reality, the site is shut down, production is shut down, and all the lessons on the 345 build are now forgotten so you’re actually just building a new fleet again.
When in reality, the site is shut down, production is shut down, and all the lessons on the 345 build are now forgotten so you’re actually just building a new fleet again.
birchesgreen
Established Member
Should have ordered them a few years ago when it was clear Derby was running out of work...
I have my doubt this extra 345 order will come to fruition but fingers crossed!
Blindtraveler
Established Member
I guess that some of the work that might be moved to Derby is mid-life refurbishment and upgrades plus possible Life extension works to other units that they themselves or other company plants have built? There's the cross country voyager mid life at works plus similar no doubt to meridians when their future is settled not to mention the entire turbo star and electrostar family all coming up for either midlife refurbishment or potential life extension depending on age of unit and it's given future
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
That's not how government procurement from the private sector works.
birchesgreen
Established Member
Well yes, thats why we get into these messes and last minute panics.
If Derby misses out on contracts to build other rolling stock, which go abroad to be built, how do you manage direct award of consolation contracts? Is that even a valid concept under procurement rules?
And given how well Derby was doing with Aventra production who would have wanted to order more?