Fallout for rail prosecutions from Post Office scandal

mike57 · 22 Apr 2024

Titfield said:
As only a small % of fare evaders are caught, in my case there is a very strong possibility I would get away with it a few times (ie be in pocket) and on the time i was caught I would then and only then have to pay the fare I should have paid in the first place.

I assume there will be records of penalty fares so maybe start at £25, and then ramp up to say £50. £100, £200 for multiple instances in a time period (12 months maybe). This means that a genuine mistake is not heavily penalised, but a persistent offender will quickly find it doesn't pay. This should only apply in the case of ticket 'irregularities', ticketless travel should attract top tier straight away.

Titfield said:
One of the problems is the complexity of the fare system.

I agree, the current system is massively over complicated. There should be just 3 fares, Anytime, Off Peak and Advance, and do away with TOC specific tickets, if you wish to encourage people to use a specific route or service use the advance fare discount v off peak to encourage. Also do away with issue of 'ticket acceptance' in the event of disruption, if you are travelling on an advance ticket you can use the next available service irresective of TOC. Now the majority of TOCs are directly or indirectly funded by the DfT there is no justification for it.

These changes would result in a system where people are less likely to get caught out by a genuine mistake and the enforcemnent could be concentrated on fare evaders.

RailUK Forums

AlterEgo · 22 Apr 2024

mike57 said:
I assume there will be records of penalty fares

Usually only per train company, not overall.

mike57 said:
so maybe start at £25, and then ramp up to say £50. £100, £200 for multiple instances in a time period (12 months maybe). This means that a genuine mistake is not heavily penalised, but a persistent offender will quickly find it doesn't pay. This should only apply in the case of ticket 'irregularities',

Irregularities - such as?

mike57 said:
ticketless travel should attract top tier straight away.

Why? There are numerous good and benign reasons why a passenger might have no ticket - in fact, the passengers with *a* ticket but the wrong one are often up to serial fare evasion.

mike57 · 22 Apr 2024

AlterEgo said:
There are numerous good and benign reasons why a passenger might have no ticket

Have to say I struggle with this. You know you need a ticket to travel. If due to technical problems you cant buy a ticket at your joining station AND you dont have have a smart phone so that you can buy online then you speak to a member of staff at the first opportunity, not wait to be challenged.

AlterEgo said:
passengers with *a* ticket but the wrong one are often up to serial fare evasion.

Proper records with a UK wide ticketing system and enforcement (GBR/BR or whoever, one national service) would soon identify those who get caught regularly, and they could be investigated and dealt with in a different way

bakerstreet · 22 Apr 2024

mike57 said:
Have to say I struggle with this. You know you need a ticket to travel. If due to technical problems you cant buy a ticket at your joining station AND you dont have have a smart phone so that you can buy online then you speak to a member of staff at the first opportunity, not wait to be challenged.

Proper records with a UK wide ticketing system and enforcement (GBR/BR or whoever, one national service) would soon identify those who get caught regularly, and they could be investigated and dealt with in a different way

For the benefit of others, there is no compulsion to use a smartphone if your preference is to use a ticket office and / or machine.

In fact there is no compulsion at all to use anything other than a ticket machine or ticket office.

A smart phone is not ‘an opportunity to pay’ in the relevant regulations.

AlterEgo · 22 Apr 2024

mike57 said:
Have to say I struggle with this. You know you need a ticket to travel. If due to technical problems you cant buy a ticket at your joining station AND you dont have have a smart phone so that you can buy online then you speak to a member of staff at the first opportunity, not wait to be challenged.

What if that first member of staff is an RPI? The "AND" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there.

What if you have a smart phone but don't buy online? Will you be asking staff to search people for smartphones when stopping them?

mike57 said:
Proper records with a UK wide ticketing system and enforcement (GBR/BR or whoever, one national service) would soon identify those who get caught regularly, and they could be investigated and dealt with in a different way

They wouldn't because the UK does not mandate that anyone carry any ID and you are not required to furnish any proof of identity on the railways. Giving false details is common, and mostly unenforceable.

Haywain · 22 Apr 2024

bakerstreet said:
For the benefit of others, there is no compulsion to use a smartphone if your preference is to use a ticket office and / or machine.

In fact there is no compulsion at all to use anything other than a ticket machine or ticket office.

A smart phone is not ‘an opportunity to pay’ in the relevant regulations.

Although if using a smartphone you must then buy before you board

bakerstreet · 22 Apr 2024

Haywain said:
Although if using a smartphone you must then buy before you board

Good reminder.

Brissle Girl · 22 Apr 2024

Haywain said:
Although if using a smartphone you must then buy before you board

I think that is a point that the rail industry would do well to reinforce and highlight, maybe in the various apps prior to purchase. I am sure many honest people will board, maybe in a rush, with every intent to purchase a ticket as soon as they board, without realising that they are committing an offence as soon as they set foot on the train, which could be picked up twenty or thirty minutes later if their ticket is checked on the journey.

mike57 · 22 Apr 2024

AlterEgo said:
They wouldn't because the UK does not mandate that anyone carry any ID and you are not required to furnish any proof of identity on the railways. Giving false details is common, and mostly unenforceable.

This feels like we are saying "Lets persecute the people who make a genuine mistakes, because there's not much we can do about the serial fare evader"

AlterEgo said:
What if that first member of staff is an RPI?

If you then say "The ticket office was closed and/or the machine that issues promise to pays if you pay in cash was not working" to me that proves you are not trying to evade, and the facts can be checked. If however you move down the train, try and dodge them, or wait to be challenged then that would indicate that you are trying to avoid paying. I know its a fine line, but really the system needs to target those who have no intention of paying not just go after those who make a mistake as a cash cow.

datdad · 22 Apr 2024

Llanigraham said:
Where's the "Like" button!!

I have said numerous times in the past that there are too many people (here) who do not understand just how the Court system works. The Single Justice System was introduced to try and quicken the system but even that isn't perfect as there are now shortages of Magistrates.

I wonder how many of those proposing a mass recruitment project in both the Civil Service and private legal system are willing to pay the extra taxes that will be required to pay for it?

You are right here, we need a like button for this!
You ask about 'Extra taxes required to pay for it'
Generally, low-paid workers, who pay a much higher proportion of their wages as tax, will make money for public funds. Starting with more HMRC who bring in probably 4 times their wages. Then if one looks at taxes on state employees much of their pay is regained through Income tax, NI and VAT so the net costs are much less. If one looks at the Prof. Richard Murphy blog site on developing a fairer and sustainable economy (https://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/) there are many more ideas to raise the needed funds. All the best. we can do it, the UK is still the 6th largest economy

SLC001 · 22 Apr 2024

"Low-paid workers, who pay a much higher proportion of their wages as tax" Not true - this is too easy to trot out. What is often forgotten is that there are at least 7 tax rates in this country the highest of which IIRC is around 70%. However, in certain circumstances, higher earners could be paying over 100% in tax on some of their earnings. Note also that higher earners actually lose benefits and allowances which do not effect lower paid people So please, let's stop making sweeping statements and stick to the facts.

AlterEgo · 22 Apr 2024

mike57 said:
This feels like we are saying "Lets persecute the people who make a genuine mistakes, because there's not much we can do about the serial fare evader"

Well, there isn't much you can do about the serial fare evader/false details giver, until they make a mistake and are caught. That is a function of how the UK works, having bloody-mindedly decided against free ID cards. It is not an argument to go for people who make genuine mistakes instead.

mike57 said:
If you then say "The ticket office was closed and/or the machine that issues promise to pays if you pay in cash was not working" to me that proves you are not trying to evade, and the facts can be checked.

This is already the case. But you mentioned that if people have smartphones, they should use these to buy their tickets. Perhaps they should, but I don't think it ought to be a legal requirement.

mike57 said:
If however you move down the train, try and dodge them, or wait to be challenged

What, so, if you can't buy a ticket for perfectly valid reasons outwith your control, and you peacefully take your seat and wait to be sold a ticket, this is an indication you are trying to avoid paying?

Ken H · 22 Apr 2024

SLC001 said:
"Low-paid workers, who pay a much higher proportion of their wages as tax" Not true - this is too easy to trot out. What is often forgotten is that there are at least 7 tax rates in this country the highest of which IIRC is around 70%. However, in certain circumstances, higher earners could be paying over 100% in tax on some of their earnings. Note also that higher earners actually lose benefits and allowances which do not effect lower paid people So please, let's stop making sweeping statements and stick to the facts.

Higher paid workers can organise their affairs to reduce tax liability, or even not undertake an activity at all. Which is why many tax raising measures to 'hit the rich' fail to get much extra funds into the treasury. This affect is known as the Laffer Curve, named for a US economist.

When I was working as a contractor, I worked through an umbrella company so paid my own employers NI. This meant my marginal rate of tax was about 61%. And out of the 40% left over I had to pay for commuting. So I went to a 4 day /32 hour week. Thats what happens when tax rates are too high.

Most people want more public spending, but want other people to pay taxes to pay for it.

AdamWW · 22 Apr 2024

mike57 said:
Have to say I struggle with this. You know you need a ticket to travel. If due to technical problems you cant buy a ticket at your joining station AND you dont have have a smart phone so that you can buy online then you speak to a member of staff at the first opportunity, not wait to be challenged.

I have two issues with this.

1) I know lots of people will disagree, but if day after day you see people boarding at stations with a working TVM and the guard happily selling them tickets on the train (as I saw today: "Can I buy a ticket?" "Sure, of course") I think it's unresonable to penalise someone for not realising that all the people they see doing that are criminals.

2) I'm happy to be corrected, but I do not think there is anything in the conditions of travel or legislation saying that if boarding without a ticket you have to go and chase down the guard.

Haywain said:
Although if using a smartphone you must then buy before you board

I read this as you saying that if there is no available ticket machine or ticket office, if you instead use a smartphone to buy a ticket it must be before you board. If that's what you meant, what law is broken if instead you do so after boarding?

Ken H · 22 Apr 2024

AdamWW said:
I have two issues with this.

1) I know lots of people will disagree, but if day after day you see people boarding at stations with a working TVM and the guard happily selling them tickets on the train (as I saw today: "Can I buy a ticket?" "Sure, of course") I think it's unresonable to penalise someone for not realising that all the people they see doing that are criminals.

2) I'm happy to be corrected, but I do not think there is anything in the conditions of travel or legislation saying that if boarding without a ticket you have to go and chase down the guard.

I read this as you saying that if there is no available ticket machine or ticket office, if you instead use a smartphone to buy a ticket it must be before you board. If that's what you meant, what law is broken if instead you do so after boarding?

so if there is no mobile signal at your joining station, but there is on the train. What do you do?

Haywain · 22 Apr 2024

AdamWW said:
what law is broken if instead you do so after boarding?

Railway Byelaws 18.1

in any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel

There is clearly an exemption where facilities in the form of a TVM or ticket office are not provided to allow the purchase of a ticket, but a smartphone is not part of those facilities.

Fermiboson · 22 Apr 2024

Haywain said:
Railway Byelaws 18.1

There is clearly an exemption where facilities in the form of a TVM or ticket office are not provided to allow the purchase of a ticket, but a smartphone is not part of those facilities.

The question I gather Adam to be asking is, would you be breaking the law if you boarded from a station without a TVM/ticket office, and then bought from your phone while on board?

Haywain · 22 Apr 2024

Fermiboson said:
The question I gather Adam to be asking is, would you be breaking the law if you boarded from a station without a TVM/ticket office, and then bought from your phone while on board?

We have seen cases on the forums where someone buying after departure has been reported for potential prosecution.

Fermiboson · 22 Apr 2024

Haywain said:
We have seen cases on the forums where someone buying after departure has been reported for potential prosecution.

That may be, but why would the exemption not apply to buying tickets on phones? Just because the TOC wants to prosecute something doesn’t mean the customer has actually broken the law.

AlterEgo · 22 Apr 2024

Haywain said:
We have seen cases on the forums where someone buying after departure has been reported for potential prosecution.

Yes, but that is only the case when someone has boarded at a station with available ticketing facilities.

If you do choose to buy on your phone, and board at an unstaffed/TVMless station, you do not have to buy before you get on board.

Haywain · 22 Apr 2024

AlterEgo said:
If you do choose to buy on your phone, and board at an unstaffed/TVMless station, you do not have to buy before you get on board.

Source?

talldave · 22 Apr 2024

Brissle Girl said:
I think that is a point that the rail industry would do well to reinforce and highlight, maybe in the various apps prior to purchase. I am sure many honest people will board, maybe in a rush, with every intent to purchase a ticket as soon as they board, without realising that they are committing an offence as soon as they set foot on the train, which could be picked up twenty or thirty minutes later if their ticket is checked on the journey.

A 2 or 3 minute grace period would surely eradicate most "incidents" and negate most arguments about precise departure times/purchase notification delays/ etc.?

Don't TfL do that on some of their timings?

Serial "buy if an inspection occurs" offenders wouldn't be impacted, but ridiculous prosecutions of customers fully intent on paying could be avoided.

AlterEgo · 22 Apr 2024

Haywain said:
Source?

The Bylaw is as follows:

(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.

and the defence available in said Bylaws:

(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:

(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey

"Paying when challenged" is not an offence. The mere act of boarding without a valid ticket is...unless of course there were no ticketing facilities available.

Haywain · 22 Apr 2024

AlterEgo said:
The Bylaw is as follows:

(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.

and the defence available in said Bylaws:

(3) No person shall be in breach of Byelaw 18(1) or 18(2) if:

(i) there were no facilities in working order for the issue or validation of any ticket at the time when, and the station where, he began his journey

"Paying when challenged" is not an offence. The mere act of boarding without a valid ticket is...unless of course there were no ticketing facilities available.

OK, I accept your point. However, I would still advise anyone using a phone to buy a ticket to do so before boarding.

AdamWW · 22 Apr 2024

Haywain said:
OK, I accept your point. However, I would still advise anyone using a phone to buy a ticket to do so before boarding.

Me too because merely obeying the law does not always seem to be enough to avoid prosecution, and in particular some TOCs appear to be training their staff that a ticket purchased after boarding is invalid, although there seems to be no justification in law or the conditions of travel to support this.

AlterEgo · 22 Apr 2024

AdamWW said:
Me too because merely obeying the law does not always seem to be enough to avoid prosecution, and in particular some TOCs appear to be training their staff that a ticket purchased after boarding is invalid, although there seems to be no justification in law or the conditions of travel to support this.

I don’t think we have seen any examples where someone was reported or PF’d for doing this after boarding at a station *without* ticket facilities have we?

AdamWW · 22 Apr 2024

AlterEgo said:
I don’t think we have seen any examples where someone was reported or PF’d for doing this after boarding at a station *without* ticket facilities have we?

No I don't think we have.

But that doesn't guarantee that doing so won't get someone into trouble one day, even though it shouldn't.

Fermiboson · 22 Apr 2024

We've had cases of people being issued penalty fares for boarding the next available service on an advance after a delay. No reason to advise people to not do so.

In fact buying a mobile ticket after boarding is probably on the whole less indicative of fare evasion than the typical buy after boarding (or even promise to pay) system. I know someone who unintentionally evaded hundreds of pounds of fares by obtaining promise to pay receipts for a frequent commute between two barrierless, TVMless Northern stations, but never encountering a guard in months of travel to actually pay. (She eventually got fed up and brought the entire stack of receipts to the nearest staffed station, at which point staff kind of just gave up and told her it was fine.)

Haywain · 22 Apr 2024

Fermiboson said:
I know someone who unintentionally evaded hundreds of pounds of fares by obtaining promise to pay receipts for a frequent commute between two barrierless, TVMless Northern stations,

How did they obtain Promise to Pay vouchers at a station without TVMs?

Fermiboson · 22 Apr 2024

Haywain said:
How did they obtain Promise to Pay vouchers at a station without TVMs?

Doesn't Northern have those machines which can only issue promise to pay vouchers but not tickets?

Fallout for rail prosecutions from Post Office scandal

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