Sort of, Adessia includes Aventra as sub-brand for the time being.
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Potential up to 2,000 job losses at Alstom Derby
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Mikey C
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Metro-Cammell for example, before its closure, stopped making trains from scratch from the late 80s.
What's your evidence that Aventra body shell parts were made overseas?
Watch other areas of UK industry get very upset very fast when other countries reciprocate in those areas and their businesses are destroyed... Protectionism rarely works.
Trainman40083
Member
I asked a friend who worked at Litchurch Lane and he seems sure they came from the UK. He recalls they were not even covered, so fleet they didn't come that far away from Derby
In the Inside The Factory episode they were covered and the text looked like they had come from overseas.
It's quite likely that Bombardier/Alstom are sourcing from multiple suppliers.
I swear I saw a chart of "where do Aventra parts come from?" and the body shell was local to Derby, but I can't find it now.
The steel cab crash structures are definitely made in Britain.
Not for families of parts like body shell panels. It's much cheaper to have one supplier.
Edit: found said chart! The bogies come from Germany and I think we established that the traction motors are... Swedish?... But most if not all of the car body is British.
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LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
I recall a similar diagram for the Hitachi IEP (800/801), showing many UK parts.
Nevertheless, a large number of parts, particularly the high-value ones, were made abroad, mostly in Japan of course for the 80x.
The diagrams really amount to a procurement map, and don't necessarily mean the underlying parts came from the UK.
Many will be sourced by the suppliers from Europe and the far east, notably China, though some added value will be retained in the UK.
eg I doubt the Aventra train radio from Siemens UK was actually manufactured in the UK.
Nevertheless, a large number of parts, particularly the high-value ones, were made abroad, mostly in Japan of course for the 80x.
The diagrams really amount to a procurement map, and don't necessarily mean the underlying parts came from the UK.
Many will be sourced by the suppliers from Europe and the far east, notably China, though some added value will be retained in the UK.
eg I doubt the Aventra train radio from Siemens UK was actually manufactured in the UK.
Invincible
Member
Although Siemens UK was started in 1843, still has many factories and the radios along with rail signalling kit are made in Chippenham
https://www.railengineer.co.uk/siemens-mobility-boost-for-chippenham/#:~:text=Another important part of Siemens,has now transferred to Chippenham.
Siemens in the UK
Siemens was established in the United Kingdom over 170 years ago, with office and manufacturing operations throughout the country.
www.siemens.com
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birchesgreen
Established Member
Its a very complicated process, some parts will include British content but that itself includes foreign "bits". I remember seeing a fascinating video years ago tracking a wire used in a car. It crossed the channel about 4 times before the vehicle was finally completed!
Invincible
Member
Will be interesting to see who becomes Transport Secretary and if they continue with moving railway planning from the DfT to a new GBR ltd, and ensure there is help with UK factories, and no "boom and bust" culture with tenders and orders?.
The current shadow Transport Secretary Louise Haigh has been very critical of current Government policy.
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Not really. For electronic components, one supplier makes sense as there is integration work.
Multiple manufacturers can make parts like the aluminum body panels to the Aventra spec with no additional work needed at Bombardier/Alstom.
Multiple production locations have already been mentioned earlier in the thread so it's quite likely that Bombardier/Alstom were sourcing them from several manufacturers, particularly when Aventra output was at its peak.
Trainman40083
Member
My word. I certainly remember many of those suppliers, even my former employer is there
Electronics is the one domain "second sourcing" is common within. For structural parts, assemblies etc having more than one supplier at once is practically unheard of. Sometimes a manufacturer will switch from one to another but it's rare. Lots of costs and risks involved.
Btw as a general point, Britain is manufacturing more by both volume and value than it ever has. The service sector now dwarfs manufacturing, sure, and automation now means far fewer people work in the sector, but it's still something we're strong in.
Snow1964
Established Member
Hansard transcript of a new Parliamentary committee debate on UK future of rail manufacturing. More focused on Hitachi than Alstom this time.
Some usual feeble waffle answers from Huw Merrimen
Some usual feeble waffle answers from Huw Merrimen
Invincible
Member
"The future for our plants is very much focused on exports, as it has to be"
Ireland placed a large order for X’trapolis trains, which could have been built at Derby, but will not be!
Some naive views of procurement from the other speakers as well.
Bornin1980s
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All the main train makers in this country have plants in the EU and elsewhere. Why would they want to export from here? The only train exporters we have are very small specialists like Clayton."The future for our plants is very much focused on exports, as it has to be"
Ireland placed a large order for X’trapolis trains, which could have been built at Derby, but will not be!
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
On Greensignals podcast Alstoms MD Nick Crossfield was very clear that if Litchurch Lane had other UK orders ie the extra 345s they would have executed this order from Derby but nothing materialised in time so their being built in Poland.
LNW-GW Joint
Veteran Member
The basis for the X'trapolis order would be for build in France.
Why would Alstom (and Irish Rail) want to build them in Derby, which has no expertise on the platform?
If Alstom didn't have the capacity in France, that might have opened the door a bit.
The UK now being outside the EU doesn't help (tariffs, rules of origin etc).
Mikey C
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Exactly. Derby has had enough difficulty producing its own Aventra platform, never mind producing a completely alien Alstom one.
Invincible
Member
So the Government's plan to increase train exports will not be easy.
But looks like Alstrom, Hitachi, Siemens and CAF will be able to offer UK built trains for the future UK tenders, ideally the orders spaced out to prevent another "boom and bust" and with trains that long term will be suitable to be exported?. But will need a close relationship with Government and "GBR" to ensure this can happen.
It is still possible the companies (and Stadler) might offer trains built overseas for the new UK tenders?.
I see Labour are starting to publish their plans for railways which includes a different version of GBR.
Labour pledges to renationalise most rail services within first term
The party says it offers the "biggest overhaul in a generation" but ministers brand it "pointless".
www.bbc.co.uk
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HSTEd
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He said that because it is in his political interests to say that. But as always, we must remember that he is far from an impartial actor.
The British government keeps chasing exports as a means to support oversized and failing industries. They did it for decades with nuclear power and all it did was hasten the collapse of the industry as the hope of exports lead to bad decision after bad decision.
Nicholas Lewis
Established Member
Thats for sure as usual we are first out of the blocks to invent something and then fail to exploit it.
Invincible
Member
On the TV news Keir Starmer gave an interview from the Newton Aycliffe factory
www.derbytelegraph.co.uk
Around 250 voluntary redundancies and up to 500 "zero hours contract" staff let go at the Derby factory, still no new Class 345 contract confirmation, and if so not expected from the DfT before the end of May.
Alstom workers taking redundancy as time ticks away over train deal
The Derby staff say that it's like 'living on a knife edge' not knowing what is going to happen next
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HSTEd
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The worst part is the government refuses to give up and keeps chasing the illusive export orders - ironically making decisions that weaken the domestic potential for the industry.
We chose the AGR over the SGHWR because it was considered to have more export potential, but it never sold a reactor abroad and we ended up with an operationally inferior nuclear fleet.
Or just buying the CANDU as was originally proposed.
Then there is this whole mess, we've created a mess of train producers, none of which is able to truly compete with manufacturers abroad.
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There are no tarrifs or quotas on trade between UK and the EU. Rules of origin would be an issue if the trains had a high proportion of non UK and non EU parts but I doubt this would be the case with Alstom (or CAF or Siemens). Customs checks won't be an issue for multi million pound vehicles.
The big problem is its that Derby is the home of the Aventra and it failed.
Snow1964
Established Member
BBC also reporting Kier Starmer visiting Hitachi Factory
Starmer vows long-term plan for Hitachi Rail and Alstrom
The Labour leader says UK train manufacturers are staring down the barrel of devastating job losses.
www.bbc.co.uk
No its not but building some of them to such a poor quality that no one wants to order more is failure.
BBC also reporting Kier Starmer visiting Hitachi Factory
Starmer vows long-term plan for Hitachi Rail and Alstrom
The Labour leader says UK train manufacturers are staring down the barrel of devastating job losses.www.bbc.co.uk
I am less sympathetic after what @Clarence Yard has said about Hitachi not being interested in building additional coaches and offering a high price for new units.