Why Do So Many TfW Class 231 FLIRT trains Appear to Have a Rest on Sundays?

Envoy · 19 May 2024

On weekdays, the vast majority of trains on the Penarth to Rhymney valley route are 4 car Class 231 FLIRT trains. I have just checked for today and as with other Sundays, the vast majority of trains on this route are 2 coach Class 150 Sprinters. I also note that today - a Sunday (19 May) with excellent weather, that all the trains going to Barry Island from Cardiff and the central valleys are 2 coach Class 150 Sprinters.

Surely, had the FLIRT trains been out in the same numbers as they are on weekdays, that would have freed up Class 150’s to make 4 coach trains on the Barry Island run. Presumably, those 2 coach 150’s going to Barry Island are going to be rammed today? Hope the passengers enjoy the view of all the modern air conditioned FLIRTS parked at Canton and sidings in Barry.

So, why does this situation persist on Sundays? Are the normal drivers still volunteering to work Sundays & they don’t wish to and TfW bring in retired people who can only drive Sprinters?

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Halish Railway · 19 May 2024

This is generally what happens with the introduction of new trains, e.g. whilst there are 3 Class 730 diagrams in the West Midlands Monday-Saturday, there is 1 on a Sunday. One of the reasons I can think of is maintenance and modifications being carried out on Sundays whilst these new units are still bedding in.

Elsewhere in the country there have been many examples of a certain type of train being used less on Sundays whilst maintenance is carried out. Prior to the arrival of the Class 195s Northern generally didn't allocate too many 158s on Sundays, with the Leeds to Manchester via Bradford services mainly being worked by pairs of Pacers rather than whatever the Northern random Sprinter generator produced. Before the introduction of the Azumas LNER/VTEC/East Coast used an East Midlands HST on a London to Newcastle service giving time for the Class 91s/MK4s to be maintained.

Lurcheroo · 19 May 2024

Envoy said:
Are the normal drivers still volunteering to work Sundays & they don’t wish to and TfW bring in retired people who can only drive Sprinters?

I assume this is a joke ? Right ?

Can’t say much about the diagramming but I’m sure there’s a solid reason.

Just incase you’re interested as of the 2nd of June, all TFW drivers will have Sunday incorporated into their working week so will be part of the contract and not be reliant on people volunteering to do overtime. Well no more reliant than any other day of the week needing volunteers to fill uncovered jobs.

Envoy · 20 May 2024

If as from 2 June, Sundays become part of the normal working week and the FLIRTS are out as they would be on a weekday, then that would surely support my assumption that volunteers had been coming from the recently retired and they could only drive Sprinters. If on the other hand, the situation persists, then perhaps that could support the point made above by ‘Halish Railway’ and they are using Sundays for maintenance of the new fleet? If that is indeed the case, then I think it is appalling that passengers have to be rammed into 2 coach Sprinters on fine Sundays - when many are heading for the coast. This does nothing to promote the shift from car to rail transport.

Anyway, today (Monday 20 May) I have just checked RTT for Lisvane station and lo & behold, the 4 coach FLIRTS are on virtually every service. What a surprise!

Lurcheroo · 20 May 2024

Envoy said:
If as from 2 June, Sundays become part of the normal working week and the FLIRTS are out as they would be on a weekday, then that would surely support my assumption that volunteers had been coming from the recently retired and they could only drive Sprinters. If on the other hand, the situation persists, then perhaps that could support the point made above by ‘Halish Railway’ and they are using Sundays for maintenance of the new fleet? If that is indeed the case, then I think it is appalling that passengers have to be rammed into 2 coach Sprinters on fine Sundays - when many are heading for the coast. This does nothing to promote the shift from car to rail transport.

Anyway, today (Monday 20 May) I have just checked RTT for Lisvane station and lo & behold, the 4 coach FLIRTS are on virtually every service. What a surprise!

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. “The recently retired” do not volunteer at all, they’re retired. They’ve left and do not drive trains at all anymore.
CURRENT Drivers are trained on both the new FLIRTS and the old sprinters.

As I said there will be a reason that the flirts are not yet diagrammed on Sundays.
As more of the new fleets are brought in and the old fleets are taken out, the New stock will change to cover all Sunday services.

skyhigh · 20 May 2024

Envoy said:
my assumption that volunteers had been coming from the recently retired and they could only drive Sprinters.

That is clearly complete nonsense.

Envoy · 20 May 2024

OK, so I am talking nonsense but it does seem very odd that most of these FLIRT trains are not out on Sundays.

LNW-GW Joint · 20 May 2024

Envoy said:
OK, so I am talking nonsense but it does seem very odd that most of these FLIRT trains are not out on Sundays.

It might not be the case for the TfW Flirts, but TOCs have been known to use older trains at weekends to keep the mileage on new trains (on which the maintenance costs are based) as low as possible.
ie Simply a cost-control measure.

Envoy · 20 May 2024

LNW-GW Joint said:
It might not be the case for the TfW Flirts, but TOCs have been known to use older trains at weekends to keep the mileage on new trains (on which the maintenance costs are based) as low as possible.
ie Simply a cost-control measure.

Well, if that’s the case, I think it is appalling. Can you imagine how all those people felt yesterday rammed into 2 coach Sprinters when they could have been 4 coaches had the FLIRT trains been out and about on the Penarth to Rhymney route? I wonder if any people yesterday were unable to board rammed trains? Furthermore, why do they think that Sunday customers are any less worthy of a decent service v weekday passengers?

I thought that the Welsh Government had taken control of Transport for Wales and that this sort of thing (if true) would not happen?

Lurcheroo · 20 May 2024

Envoy said:
Well, if that’s the case, I think it is appalling. Can you imagine how all those people felt yesterday rammed into 2 coach Sprinters when they could have been 4 coaches had the FLIRT trains been out and about on the Penarth to Rhymney route? I wonder if any people yesterday were unable to board rammed trains? Furthermore, why do they think that Sunday customers are any less worthy of a decent service v weekday passengers?

I thought that the Welsh Government had taken control of Transport for Wales and that this sort of thing (if true) would not happen?

So yesterday there were 3 services reported full and standing on the core valley lines. The 11:59 and 12:59 Fernhill - Barry island services and then the 18:56 Barry island - Fernhill service. The first 2 were 2 car 150’s but the 18:59 from Barry island was a 4 car 150.
A 231 has (according to TFW’s fleet guide) has 170 seats whilst a 150 has 108 (so 2 has 216). But the 231 is seen as having a lot more standing room than the 150’s. I’ve seen 67 standing per unit for the 150’s (so 134 for the 4 car) but 260 for a class 231.
They’re also obviously a much nicer environment.

They won’t be not using them ‘to keep the mileage down’ but there will be a good reason. TFW would have every unit they can out to prevent overcrowding.

MCR247 · 20 May 2024

Envoy said:
OK, so I am talking nonsense but it does seem very odd that most of these FLIRT trains are not out on Sundays.

Halish railway gave you most likely answer in the 2nd post. Sometimes things really are that simple

Fuzzytop · 20 May 2024

Halish Railway said:
Before the introduction of the Azumas LNER/VTEC/East Coast used an East Midlands HST on a London to Newcastle service giving time for the Class 91s/MK4s to be maintained.

Great post, much agreed, but this tiny bit is not quite right - sorry! There was actually a 27th 91/Mk4 diagram on a Sunday, compared to only 26 in the week. 3tph from Edinburgh in some hours on Sunday requires a greater number of trains.

jayah · 20 May 2024

Envoy said:
Well, if that’s the case, I think it is appalling. Can you imagine how all those people felt yesterday rammed into 2 coach Sprinters when they could have been 4 coaches had the FLIRT trains been out and about on the Penarth to Rhymney route? I wonder if any people yesterday were unable to board rammed trains? Furthermore, why do they think that Sunday customers are any less worthy of a decent service v weekday passengers?

I thought that the Welsh Government had taken control of Transport for Wales and that this sort of thing (if true) would not happen?

It is endemic on many franchises, state owned or privatised, old stock or new. It is fashionable to blame the DfT for this, but often as not the stock is on hand, and not using it is a choice by the operator.

There was an FOI last year which saw all Northern's long term diagrams released. The Sunday diagrams have 70% filesize of Saturdays and 60% of weekdays. Part of the reason is fewer services, especially in the early morning. But they also park up huge numbers of units, identified as 'stabled' rather than 'exam' or maintenance.

You might expect ~80% daily availability from older DMU vehicles. To take a random example, Newton Heath's 156s rose from 7/33 with no diagrammed work in the week to 16/33 on Sundays, while yesterday routes around Chester, Blackburn, Southport, Scarborough, Whitby were all formed of 2 cars, even on the reduced Sunday frequency.

43096 · 20 May 2024

Halish Railway said:
Before the introduction of the Azumas LNER/VTEC/East Coast used an East Midlands HST on a London to Newcastle service giving time for the Class 91s/MK4s to be maintained.

Are you thinking of the set from EMT that was used on the Hull diagram (NL-Hull ECS, Hull-KX-Leeds-KX-Hull, Hull-NL ECS) as I don't recall there being any EMT sets being regulars on a Newcastle turn. It would also be nothing to do with Mark 4 maintenance and everything to do with adding capacity.

Halish Railway · 22 May 2024

43096 said:
Are you thinking of the set from EMT that was used on the Hull diagram (NL-Hull ECS, Hull-KX-Leeds-KX-Hull, Hull-NL ECS) as I don't recall there being any EMT sets being regulars on a Newcastle turn. It would also be nothing to do with Mark 4 maintenance and everything to do with adding capacity.

No, it wasn't worked by set NL65 but a dedicated East Midlands rake of MK3S. Having searched Google Images, I have found a few pictures such as the one below, most of the descriptions saying that it worked a service back to London departing at 15:55.

HST: 43064 East Midlands Trains Newcastle Central

East Midlands Trains HST Power Car 43064 is pictured on the rear of the 15-55 to Kings Cross, on Platform 4 at Newcastle Central, on January 21st 2011, which is currently operated by an EMT HST set on behalf of East Coast.

www.flickr.com

Why Do So Many TfW Class 231 FLIRT trains Appear to Have a Rest on Sundays?

Envoy

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skyhigh

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HST: 43064 East Midlands Trains Newcastle Central