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What powers do preserved railways have in respect of ticketing matters?

Gooner18

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Having recently visited the Bluebell and Watercress railways (both well worth a visit) on the watercress there was an on train guard inspecting tickets which got me thinking , what powers does the guard actually have if say someone refuses to pay or show a ticket?

Does a preservation railway follow the exact same rules as the national railways , are they entitled to the same powers i.e a criminal offence, or would it be the case of going down the civil route?

Do they have powers to detain to obtain name and address? Would BTP have jurisdiction?

I can’t imagine a local police force being interested, especially with limited knowledge of railways affairs.
 
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yorkie

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Not quite the same question, but see the following thread, where some of your questions are effectively answered:


Yes, in theory the Regulation of Railways Act could be applied, but in practice that isn't going to happen.

If someone refused to buy a ticket, refused to provide name and address, and simply attempted to leave the railway, then it would be inadvisable for an employee or volunteer of the railway to attempt to detain them.
 

Gooner18

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Not quite the same question, but see the following thread, where some of your questions are effectively answered:


Yes, in theory the Regulation of Railways Act could be applied, but in practice that isn't going to happen.

If someone refused to buy a ticket, refused to provide name and address, and simply attempted to leave the railway, then it would be inadvisable for an employee or volunteer of the railway to attempt to detain them.
I see, thank you.

I've read the linked thread it seems it’s a bit of a legal minefield.

In parts of that linked thread it states that they has been prosecutions for criminal damage etc; I wonder whether that would have been BTP rather than a local force

For trespass, would BTP deal with it?

I would assume the route for aggravated trespass would be taken due to it affecting the railway going about its business.

Then again if a charity has created its own bylaw for trespassing on their land, does it then become a civil matter?
 

Western 52

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Would deliberate fare evasion on a preserved line be treated in a similar way to shop lifting by a court?
 

Gooner18

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Under the theft act the points to prove are ;
Dishonestly appropriates;
Property belonging to another;
Intention to permanently deprive the other of it.

The theft act won’t cover this as no property has been taken , unlike in a shop lifting situation
 

MP33

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Do preserved railways have the sanction of banning someone from their property. So that if they fail to pay their fare, they will only be able to do it, the once.

The reason being that the services are not considered as being provided as a regular passenger one.
 

paul1609

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Is there actually an issue of non-paying?
On the actual trains my experience is no. When you have events yes there are freeloaders who will try to get on to station premises without paying. We just try to be vigilent and ask them to leave the premises. There is at least one "enthusiast" who is known to do the rounds of the K&ESR, Spa & Bluebell (probably others) shoplifting as he goes.
 

Phil56

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From personal experience visiting preserved lines, the onboard ticket inspectors don't really seem to have any enforcement powers, and I think it's mostly a matter of "encouragement".

I've seen many times when someone has told the ticket inspector that there was a queue at the ticket office, and they couldn't wait as they'd miss the train - the ticket inspector just advises them to buy a ticket at the ticket office at the destination or when they return to their starting point. All very relaxed and friendly.

Whether the passenger does actually buy a ticket is anyone's guess - I'd suspect not in many cases.
 

Western 52

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On the railway I worked on as a guard we had a Setright machine so we'd sell tickets on the train as required. Cash only though!
 

paul1609

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From personal experience visiting preserved lines, the onboard ticket inspectors don't really seem to have any enforcement powers, and I think it's mostly a matter of "encouragement". I've seen many times when someone has told the ticket inspector that there was a queue at the ticket office and they couldn't wait as they'd miss the train - the ticket inspector just advises them to buy a ticket at the ticket office at the destination or when they return to their starting point. All very relaxed and friendly. Whether the passenger does actually buy a ticket is anyone's guess - I'd suspect not in many cases.
At Tenterden the platform staff will tell me if theres a queue for the booking office and Ill just delay the departure, we're after all trying to recreate a country railway not Southeastern. Exceptionally wed put them all together in one coach and let the ticket inspector sort them out. I dont think theres actually a problem on our trains at all. As a guard Ive even had ramblers who are going one stop to walk along the valley give me a generous donation because they havent been able to buy a ticket.
 

miami

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What crime is committed if someone sneaks into a cinema and watches a film? Feels a similar situation.
 

DanNCL

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I volunteer on a heritage railway and in addition to operational roles I also do ticketing, both on the train and in the booking office. I’ll explain how this scenario works on the line I volunteer at, this may be different from how other lines do it.

The ticket inspector on the train carries a tablet which has the same point of sale system as the booking office which means we can do anything on the train that the booking office can do, including issuing tickets for online bookings. The ticket inspector can accept both cash and card payment, on the very rare occasion a ticket can’t be sold on the train the passenger will be directed to the booking office when they alight to buy their ticket there.
Every train has a ticket inspector and everything longer than a 2 car DMU has at least two ticket inspectors, someone will be along to check you’ve got a ticket or to sell you one very quickly, 99% of the time before the train reaches the next station.

I’ve only once had a passenger attempt fare evasion on my train and that was an attempt at short faring. It was a 2 car DMU with almost every seat taken, I was the only ticket inspector onboard and I started at the opposite end of the train from where they were sat which meant by the time I reached them the train had already made another station call, one of the rare occasions that happens on my line. They attempted to buy their tickets from that station call, even though nobody had boarded the train at said station, instead of where they’d actually boarded the train. They did eventually pay the correct fare so no further action was taken.

If a passenger refused to pay, they would be instructed to leave the train at the next station, regardless where that is, and if they refused to leave the train we can call the police. Us ticket inspectors would not detain a passenger. I can’t comment on the prospects of prosecution, that would be for management to determine and is entirely out of the hands of the ticketing group at the railway.

Not really fare evasion but still passengers trying to get out of spending money, on gala days we get quite a few people come up to the ticket inspectors on the train and demand a refund because the loco they were hoping for didn’t produce. In the time that I’ve been volunteering we’ve always operated the advertised traction, so when someone complains they’ve not got the loco they wanted they’re complaining about not getting something we never promised them. We don’t provide refunds in such cases as we’ve delivered what we promised them, but they can become very difficult to deal with, sometimes aggressive. I would say that is a much larger issue for heritage lines than fare evasion is. It puts some of the non-enthusiast volunteers off wanting to work galas and as non-enthusiasts make up a large percentage of our ticketing group it can make gala days difficult to operate.
 

EyeKay

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This surprises me tbh. This may be for another thread, but why are non enthusiasts volunteering on a heritage railway?
Actually, I’ve come across quite a few volunteers who are not enthusiasts. Its often retired people who want to do something positive for the community and have the opportunity to engage with other people.
 

duffield

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On the big railway, many fare evaders are likely to become (reluctant) fare-paying passengers if there is sufficient enforcement, since they are travelling for work etc..

On heritage railways, I'm not sure the same applies, any freeloaders would probably mostly not travel rather than pay. So there isn't likely to be much revenue loss from them in reality.
 

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