• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Why are 350/2s being replaced with 730s?

Crant90045

Member
Joined
28 Jan 2025
Messages
18
Location
Mirfield
I know that LNWR want to move their 350/2s to be replaced by 730s but im not 100% sure why?
If anyone could tell me I would much appreaciate it
(Also im not fully sure they are 350/2s but from what i heard those are the subclass that are getting replaced)
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Travelmonkey

Member
Joined
16 Aug 2023
Messages
493
Location
The Midlands
Basically it's taking 3+2 seating stock and replacing it with 2+2 which is better suited for the longer journeys such as London>Crewe
 

John R

Established Member
Joined
1 Jul 2013
Messages
4,516
Were the lease costs on them too high, and it was financially better to order new stock at a time when the market for new stock was very attractive due to low interest rates? (And the owner of the 350s didn’t play ball and lower their lease costs in line with the market.)

Basically it's taking 3+2 seating stock and replacing it with 2+2 which is better suited for the longer journeys such as London>Crewe
Could they not just replace the seating?
 

setdown

Member
Joined
5 Jan 2016
Messages
296
I've also read that the owner leases them out on very unfavourable finance deals, but I believe some other posters will be able to give more detail.
 

Travelmonkey

Member
Joined
16 Aug 2023
Messages
493
Location
The Midlands
Were the lease costs on them too high, and it was financially better to order new stock at a time when the market for new stock was very attractive due to low interest rates? (And the owner of the 350s didn’t play ball and lower their lease costs in line with the market.)


Could they not just replace the seating?
Thats what they did on the 1, 3 & 4, although lease is one of the contributing factors too, but the 730s should certainly be a upgrade on the incumbent.
 

AJDesiro

Member
Joined
10 May 2019
Messages
793
Location
Rugby
Thats what they did on the 1, 3 & 4, although lease is one of the contributing factors too, but the 730s should certainly be a upgrade on the incumbent.
I'm being pedantic, but hey ho, they didn't replace the seating on the 1, 3, and 4s; they were always 2+2, albeit the 4s have a slightly different layout. However, they did receive new first-class seats around 2020/2021 to match the remainder of the fleet.
 

MrJeeves

Established Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
28 Aug 2015
Messages
3,363
Location
Burgess Hill
From what i have heard /1s /3s and /4s are owned by angel trains, /2s by porterbrook this might not be true thats just what ive heard
Yes. Charge 0986 0466 0001 on Companies House shows that Porterbrook lease Class 350s to West Midlands Trains Ltd.

The charge details the original lease as having 148 cars, which constitutes constitutes the 37 Class 350/2 units (of which some have since moved to storage as they have moved off-lease).
 

Travelmonkey

Member
Joined
16 Aug 2023
Messages
493
Location
The Midlands
I'm being pedantic, but hey ho, they didn't replace the seating on the 1, 3, and 4s; they were always 2+2, albeit the 4s have a slightly different layout. However, they did receive new first-class seats around 2020/2021 to match the remainder of the fleet.
Also had refurbs that the /2s did not receive keeping their London midland dotty seats. Either way still super annoying getting a /2 glad they're being phased out, although I do hope they can be passed to another TOC like Northern, especially with TRU soon to be done definitely could be good for them, although a refurb would be good but then again we have London NorthWestern 150s with Northern interior ploying the Marston Vale so some green London Midland interior for Northern would be fun to see.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
21,038
Location
Mold, Clwyd
I've also read that the owner leases them out on very unfavourable finance deals, but I believe some other posters will be able to give more detail.
The class 350/1 and /2 fleets were built when Siemens prices (paid by the Rosco) were high, hence the high leasing charges.
Porterbrook will still be paying their banks for the financing of those fleets.

The /1 fleet also had a DfT guaranteed usage of I think 20 years which has only recently expired, which is why they were not slated for early replacement.
The /2 fleet had no such guarantee, so in the 2017 franchise deal WMT decided to replace them with cheaper 730s.
The 730 programme has been heavily delayed which is why the 350/2s are still around.
Covid and other events also now mean that the original WMT fleet plan is now out-dated.
350/3 and /4 (20 units) were procured later on different terms, with TPE being involved for new Manchester-Scotland services using /3 until their CAF 397s arrived.
 

m79900

Member
Joined
28 May 2023
Messages
580
Location
North Derbyshire
I believe the /2s have a lower top speed of 100mph vs 110 for the rest of the fleet, which could possibly have been a factor.
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
31,075
Location
Fenny Stratford
Basically it's taking 3+2 seating stock and replacing it with 2+2 which is better suited for the longer journeys such as London>Crewe
Are they?
Thats what they did on the 1, 3 & 4, although lease is one of the contributing factors too, but the 730s should certainly be a upgrade on the incumbent.
They didn't change the seats.
Also had refurbs that the /2s did not receive keeping their London midland dotty seats. Either way still super annoying getting a /2 glad they're being phased out, although I do hope they can be passed to another TOC like Northern, especially with TRU soon to be done definitely could be good for them, although a refurb would be good but then again we have London NorthWestern 150s with Northern interior ploying the Marston Vale so some green London Midland interior for Northern would be fun to see.
What's wrong with the 150's? As a daily user I don't care what colour the seats are.

The 350/2 didn't receive an interior refresh as they were going off lease. Why would you spend money on something when you don't have to
I believe the /2s have a lower top speed of 100mph vs 110 for the rest of the fleet, which could possibly have been a factor.
All of the fleet is 110 irc - otherwise how could a 350/2 be used on the Crewe services?
 

jhy44

Member
Joined
7 Aug 2008
Messages
198
Location
Balham (London)
I'd hazard a guess that the main reason for the TOC making this decision was in fact the leasing price difference. We know that given the respective dates that each fleet was procured, those price differences would be sizeable (as we've seen other TOCs make similar fleet replacements which seem unnecessary/uneconomical at first until one considers leasing costs). As whilst the fleet may well be an upgrade, I don't think it's a big enough of an upgrade to warrant the replacement (i.e. the 350s were still pretty new and weren't seeing passengers crying out to replace them as is the case with other older fleets that are around).

That being said, from a passenger point-of-view, I'm really glad that this economic quirk has meant that the 350/2s are indeed going sooner than we might have otherwise expected. As a regular traveller between London and Worcestershire/Birmingham I'm of course spoiled with four operators/routings to choose from (Avanti, LNR, Chiltern, GWR), but for peak-time travel LNR would usually always come out the cheapest by a sizeable margin; but there was something about the 350/2s which I really didn't like. The combination of the 3+2 seating, the lack of tables to do any laptop work, and the weird middle-of-the-carriage-door-segregated first class sections, all combine to give these trains a really small/claustrophobic feeling that is unique to them, which is had to fully explain. It didn't make for an comfortable environment that I'd want to spend anymore than a short journey on.

And this combined with the often endless station calls, long dwell times, and often loud and/or anti-social behaviour of passengers using these trains no matter what time of day it was, really give LNR's 350/2s services between Euston and Birmingham New Street a 'cheap/budget' and 'metro/urban rail' feel, meaning I'd really try and avoid them and either pay a bit more or travel at a different time where possible to 'upgrade' to either Chiltern or Avanti to avoid them, and I wonder how many other people making the same journey do the same.

The new 730s are definitely a noteworthy upgrade, and are much more suited to intercity travel than their predecessors, so if LNR can make a big enough splash of it they might be able to win back a chunk of the London-Birmingham 'business/professional but don't want to pay Avanti's expensive post-COVID fares' market from what I would guess mostly sits with Chiltern at the moment, but probably some from Avanti too.
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
31,075
Location
Fenny Stratford
I'm really glad that this economic quirk has meant that the 350/2s are indeed going sooner than we might have otherwise expected.
They are good quality, comfortable & reliable trains and I am sad to see them go. They are perfectly fine for a trip to Birmingham. I am sad they are going.
The combination of the 3+2 seating, the lack of tables to do any laptop work, and the weird middle-of-the-carriage-door-segregated first class sections, all combine to give these trains a really small/claustrophobic feeling that is unique to them, which is had to fully explain. It didn't make for an comfortable environment that I'd want to spend anymore than a short journey on.
All the 350's have the "weird middle-of-the-carriage-door-segregated first class sections" so it is odd you only have a problem with the 350's version! I have never once felt them "small/claustrophobic" and I have been a daily ser of these trains for 15 years now.

In them olden days when we all commuted to London the 3+2 seating meant you, erm, sometimes got a seat! The capacity was very useful.
And this combined with the often endless station calls, long dwell times, and often loud and/or anti-social behaviour of passengers using these trains no matter what time of day it was, really give LNR's 350/2s services between Euston and Birmingham New Street a 'cheap/budget' and 'metro/urban rail' feel, meaning I'd really try and avoid them and either pay a bit more or travel at a different time where possible to 'upgrade' to either Chiltern or Avanti to avoid them, and I wonder how many other people making the same journey do the same.
But none of that will change with a different train. Also a 350/2 can and does turn up on any service. They aren't captive to any flow. It is pot luck. They are often paired with a different subclass so you could just move to the "nicer" version to do your laptop work. Again, it is pot luck.
The new 730s are definitely a noteworthy upgrade, and are much more suited to intercity travel than their predecessors, so if LNR can make a big enough splash of it they might be able to win back a chunk of the London-Birmingham 'business/professional but don't want to pay Avanti's expensive post-COVID fares' market from what I would guess mostly sits with Chiltern at the moment, but probably some from Avanti too.
The orange ones we have at present are not, imo, an improvement on the 350's! The green ones might be better but there aren't many laptop tables on them and the seats are, imo, less comfortable than the 350's of any type.

Sorry, I looked it up, apparently they were upgraded in 2018, but it used to be the case that they could only do 100.
correct!

Sorry, I looked it up, apparently they were upgraded in 2018, but it used to be the case that they could only do 100.
correct!
 

birchesgreen

Established Member
Joined
18 Aug 2015
Messages
7,133
Location
Birmingham
Are the LNR 730s going to have the same seats as the WMR ones? If so then i feel sorry for future passenger's backsides on longer journies.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
104,014
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
What's wrong with the 150's? As a daily user I don't care what colour the seats are.

They're scruffy and old, but no doubt will be replaced within 10 years or so by East West Rail anyway. At least they've meant reliability returning to the Marston Vale after a period of serious unpleasantness caused by the Vivarail junk.

All of the fleet is 110 irc - otherwise how could a 350/2 be used on the Crewe services?

Correct.

Are the LNR 730s going to have the same seats as the WMR ones? If so then i feel sorry for future passenger's backsides on longer journies.

A wider version of the seat (45cm instead of 43.5cm) with armrests. I personally quite like them. If you prefer Fainsa Sophias (ugh) there's always the first class area which will not be sold as first class. I'm quite looking forward to the /2s to be honest.
 

birchesgreen

Established Member
Joined
18 Aug 2015
Messages
7,133
Location
Birmingham
A wider version of the seat (45cm instead of 43.5cm) with armrests. I personally quite like them. If you prefer Fainsa Sophias (ugh) there's always the first class area which will not be sold as first class. I'm quite looking forward to the /2s to be honest.
OK might be a bit better then. Am looking forward to trying them as like the 730s, apart from the prison bus seats.
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
31,075
Location
Fenny Stratford
They're scruffy and old, but no doubt will be replaced within 10 years or so by East West Rail anyway. At least they've meant reliability returning to the Marston Vale after a period of serious unpleasantness caused by the Vivarail junk.
but the seat fabric is the wrong colour!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;)

( they aren't scruffy! They are just preloved and have now found thier forever home!)
 

sqwizz

Member
Joined
22 Jul 2024
Messages
62
Location
UK
At least they've meant reliability returning to the Marston Vale after a period of serious unpleasantness caused by the Vivarail junk.
Well, sort of

[edit: image of a tweet removed to comply with forum rules for visually imparied users - it was LNR tweeting yesterday to say there's a fault with a unit]
 
Last edited:

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
104,014
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
It's been a LOT better of late. Few sloppy delays, too. Basically back how it was when Silverlink ran it with two 150s and a spare one.

With 40 year old units you can't expect it to be perfect.
 

birchesgreen

Established Member
Joined
18 Aug 2015
Messages
7,133
Location
Birmingham
Yes made 3 attempts to travel the Marston Vale Line last year, RRBs 2 out of 3 times, at least i did get to ride the reliable Sprinter once :lol:
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
104,014
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
Yes made 3 attempts to travel the Marston Vale Line last year, RRBs 2 out of 3 times, at least i did get to ride the reliable Sprinter once :lol:

There were teething troubles when the 150s first came down but they've settled a lot now, I guess Bletchley is getting more used to maintaining them (lump hammer and WD40*? :) )

* Headquartered in Milton Keynes!
 

sqwizz

Member
Joined
22 Jul 2024
Messages
62
Location
UK
Yes made 3 attempts to travel the Marston Vale Line last year, RRBs 2 out of 3 times, at least i did get to ride the reliable Sprinter once :lol:
To be fair a lot of the RRBs last year were due to lack of staff, especially on weekends. There were a lot of breakdowns too though.
 

Top