• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Out of the "go anywhere do anything" engines of The Big 4 + a few extras, which one was better at different things?

70014IronDuke

Established Member
Joined
13 Jun 2015
Messages
3,892
I'd like to say that the Schools were pretty damn powerful for their size and tractive effort.
This is true. But they were not designed as a mixed traffic, go anywhere locomotive.

They could Hall a 9 coach train of Maunsell or Bulleid coaches up to speeds of or above 90 mph.
Can you provide links to any reliable logs of a Schools doing 90 mph or above, please?

I can certainly believe it was possible, at favourite spots, like Andover, but the SR maximum speed was a blanket 85 mph and trains simply did not need to run at such speeds in the main - if they did, they would soon get checked for running out of course.

And yes, at one point a Schools was given some kind of streamlining for experimental high-speed running, but I don't think it lasted very long.

On the SE and central sections, where the Schools largely worked, don't believe there were any such high speed spots.

In any case, mixed traffic locos - as per this thread - were not designed for 90+ mph running.

V1/V3, not V4.
Yes, sorry. I did see some at Darlington c 1962- but all in store, I think.
The wheelslip was certainly an issue, however; I've heard people say that they would spin their wheels while running as a light loco!
It was unusual for an unrebuilt Bulleid NOT to slip when starting a train, and yes, they could slip light engine. (so could any loco if the regulator was opened too suddenly)
I believe the rebuilding (notably replacing the chain driver valve gear with a more conventional setup) made a world of difference for them, although a handful remained unmodified as the rebuilding somehow added about 4 tons to the weight, making the rebuilds unsuitable for Withered Arm duties.

The 'handful' was, I think, 50 locomotives!
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Geep

Member
Joined
29 May 2015
Messages
17
Location
Dunkeld
A few more thoughts on this.

Black 5's were always considered to be the best, certainly more so than the B1's, but I think the Halls would run them close. However, when comparing a Black 5 with a Standard 5, the latter always had an edge - someone said they were the equivalent to a class 5½P, at least as capable as a Jubilee!

On the other hand, I was always suspicious of the Caprotti Black 5's, ever since one managed to lose about an hour for me between Leeds and Derby on a semi-fast one evening in about 1960 - it just could not pull on any reasonably steep section.

Although not mentioned initially as one of the 'extras' permissible in this thread, I'm glad that the 9F eventually made it into the reckoning. It seems to me that this was, and is still, the most capable loco ever designed in the UK. By definition and power class, suitable for the heaviest freights; by capacity, suitable for the fastest express (e.g. the Red Dragon at 90mph); by sheer heavy haulage, 400 ton trains over the Somerset & Dorset 1 in 50 grades out of Bath. Add to that the extremely light axle loading, and the 9F truly is a do anything, go anywhere loco!
 

Harpo

Established Member
Joined
21 Aug 2024
Messages
1,694
Location
Newport
I loved the tale of an ex-Leicester fireman I met on a summer SO diesel bash at the end of the 70s.

He recalled relieving a St Pancras to Leeds on a Friday with a 9F and his driver moaning incessantly about the ‘bloody freight engine’, until a passenger at Leeds came and thanked his driver for arriving 10 early and getting him an earlier connection home.
 

Wilts Wanderer

Established Member
Joined
21 Nov 2016
Messages
3,014
One factor that hasn’t been mentioned is coal. The flaw with most GWR classes is that they are designed for and rely on a supply of extremely high-quality Welsh steam coal. The low superheat is generally reflective of this, I.e. the energy content of the Welsh stuff was so high quality that more than a token amount of superheat wasn’t required.

The Black Five by comparison could digest pretty much anything resembling coal. As a big GWR fan it pains me to say it, but I’d pick the Stanier loco over the Collett.

(Also- it’s a very subtle difference, but I suspect as a ‘go anywhere, do anything’ loco the Grange would pip the Hall. The Didcot fireman H.Gasson was of the opinion that a Grange was the better loco, although his experience was generally more heavy freight haulage than express passenger. They’re almost the same locomotive but the slightly smaller driving wheels of the Grange gives it an edge getting a train on the move and Halls generally weren’t renowned as high-speed runners anyway, generally struggling to maintain speeds higher than the mid-60s on any sizeable load.)
 

norbitonflyer

Established Member
Joined
24 Mar 2020
Messages
4,107
Location
SW London
Having fewer driving wheels also gives you space for larger wheels, which allows for a higher top speed at the same number of revs.
Hence the enormous driving wheels on some early designs, up to 9 feet in diamter in some cases. There were limitations, of course - it was difficult to fit more than one set of driving wheels in a reasonable length, and the bending strains on coupling rods long enough to connect two such large wheels would be considerable. The height of the driving axles above the ground also compromised other aspects of the design, such as how to avoid having the boiler raised so high to clear the axle that the centre of gravity was dangerously high - some driving axles went above, behind, or even through(!) the boiler.

And the very high gearing made starting difficult. They made a brief ciomeback in the late 19th century when the invention of sanding gear mitigated that issue.
 

Harvester

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2020
Messages
1,563
Location
Notts
Indeed, sixty Light Pacifics and all thirty Merchant Navy's were rebuilt, but fifty Light Pacifics remained in original condition until the end.
Surprisingly two of the unrebuilt engines (34023 and 34102) lasted until the very end, being withdrawn on 9/7/67. With the chain driven valve gear and oil bath problems early withdrawal was expected, especially as they were not needed west of Salisbury after 1964.
 
Last edited:

Rescars

Established Member
Joined
25 May 2021
Messages
1,904
Location
Surrey
Hence the enormous driving wheels on some early designs, up to 9 feet in diamter in some cases. There were limitations, of course - it was difficult to fit more than one set of driving wheels in a reasonable length, and the bending strains on coupling rods long enough to connect two such large wheels would be considerable. The height of the driving axles above the ground also compromised other aspects of the design, such as how to avoid having the boiler raised so high to clear the axle that the centre of gravity was dangerously high - some driving axles went above, behind, or even through(!) the boiler.

And the very high gearing made starting difficult. They made a brief ciomeback in the late 19th century when the invention of sanding gear mitigated that issue.
Some engineers were unenthusiastic about coupled wheels for express passenger work. IIRC Patrick Stirling on the GNR of 8 foot single fame compared coupled drivers to a "laddie running with his breeks doon"!
 

Harvester

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2020
Messages
1,563
Location
Notts
Can you provide links to any reliable logs of a Schools doing 90 mph or above, please?

I can certainly believe it was possible, at favourite spots, like Andover, but the SR maximum speed was a blanket 85 mph
I think anyone would be hard pressed to find reliable logs of 90 mph plus running on the SR, with any of their locos, apart from Bulleid Pacifics. Some visiting engines have got into the nineties with ease, notably A4 60022 Mallard and A3 60112 St Simon on specials in 1963, although admittedly these are more powerful locos than anything the SR possessed!
 

Rescars

Established Member
Joined
25 May 2021
Messages
1,904
Location
Surrey
I think anyone would be hard pressed to find reliable logs of 90 mph plus running on the SR, with any of their locos, apart from Bulleid Pacifics. Some visiting engines have got into the nineties with ease, notably A4 60022 Mallard and A3 60112 St Simon on specials in 1963, although admittedly these are more powerful locos than anything the SR possessed!
Does anyone know of any particularly fast running by the Lord Nelsons?
 

Tetragon213

Member
Joined
14 Oct 2024
Messages
258
Location
West Midlands
I can certainly believe it was possible, at favourite spots, like Andover, but the SR maximum speed was a blanket 85 mph and trains simply did not need to run at such speeds in the main - if they did, they would soon get checked for running out of course.
I had no idea Andover was a favourite spot for speeding! I'm assuming this was back when there used to be a set of running rails in that ginormous gap between the Up and Down lines. I wouldn't have thought Andover would be a good spot for opening up the engine, seeing as there used to be that old set of pointwork for the Sprat and Winkle line.
It was unusual for an unrebuilt Bulleid NOT to slip when starting a train, and yes, they could slip light engine. (so could any loco if the regulator was opened too suddenly)


The 'handful' was, I think, 50 locomotives!
Tbf more were rebuilt than weren't!
 

SLC001

Member
Joined
13 Jan 2022
Messages
166
Location
Northampton
I am no expert but would mention the views of Frank Stratford who fired on the GC. In the book The Great Central - From the Footplate, he rightly differentiates between a Black 5 and a Standard 5. Offered the choice between a B1 and a Black 5, he would choose a B1 simply because of the reliability of the steam injectors. The B1 had bad riding qualities, but steamed well, were good for fast running and had good injectors unlike the Black 5. However if a Standard 5 was offered, this would be preferred to a B1 or Black 5 every time. For Stratford, the injectors were key.
Note these are views from the operating point of view. Stratford did fire on other types but the Standard 5s appear to be preferred.
 

70014IronDuke

Established Member
Joined
13 Jun 2015
Messages
3,892
Surprisingly two of the unrebuilt engines (34023 and 34102) lasted until the very end, being withdrawn on 9/7/67. With the chain driven valve gear and oil bath problems early withdrawal was expected, especially as they were not needed west of Salisbury after 1964.
Indeed, this has long puzzled me, and I remember asking the question why some years ago on a railway group. I can't remember getting a believerable answer.
I think anyone would be hard pressed to find reliable logs of 90 mph plus running on the SR, with any of their locos, apart from Bulleid Pacifics.
That was my point. But @Threepea51 thought otherwise, seemingly claiming regular 90s and more with Schools.

Some visiting engines have got into the nineties with ease, notably A4 60022 Mallard and A3 60112 St Simon on specials in 1963, although admittedly these are more powerful locos than anything the SR possessed!
I don't have proof, but I wouldn't agree that an A4 was more powerful than an MN, and would certainly not consider an A3 more powerful. (Much as I admire both classes, especially the aesthetics of the A3.)

You are citing special workings, running I expect on weekends and quite likely on Sundays - when traffic was much lighter and the possibility to run hard and run early would be far less likely to result in later signal checks and wasted effort.

One thing Bulleid did seem to get right was his boilers, and both MNs and light pacifics would steam very well. If the rest of the locos were in good order, I think an MN would match and possibly out perform any locomotive on UK metals.

I had no idea Andover was a favourite spot for speeding! I'm assuming this was back when there used to be a set of running rails in that ginormous gap between the Up and Down lines. I wouldn't have thought Andover would be a good spot for opening up the engine, seeing as there used to be that old set of pointwork for the Sprat and Winkle line.
If I've remembered correctly, Andover is at the bottom of a dip. Expresses would regularly get into the 80s there in both directions.
Does anyone know of any particularly fast running by the Lord Nelsons?
Good question: I don't. But there again, the Southern's strength was not high-speed running.
 

Tetragon213

Member
Joined
14 Oct 2024
Messages
258
Location
West Midlands
If I've remembered correctly, Andover is at the bottom of a dip. Expresses would regularly get into the 80s there in both directions.
Having had a quick look at a 5 mile line diagram, you are indeed correct! In the Up direction, from BE456 (the signal at the Up end of Platform 1) it's level for about 3/4 of a mile. Preceding that is a 1-in-220 downward gradient from Grateley, and a 1-in-178 going back uphill again towards Whitchurch. Looks like trains would be either have spent the last 1 3/4 miles going down the 1-in-220 as they screamed through Andover, or they'd have just finished descending the 1-in-178 from Whitchurch for about 3 miles. In either case they'd have had quite the run down a hill!
Good question: I don't. But there again, the Southern's strength was not high-speed running.
:(
 

DHB1950

Member
Joined
22 Sep 2020
Messages
15
Location
Bedford
Some engineers were unenthusiastic about coupled wheels for express passenger work. IIRC Patrick Stirling on the GNR of 8 foot single fame compared coupled drivers to a "laddie running with his breeks doon"!
I believe that I’ve got tucked away somewhere a rough sketch of a 4-2-2+2-2-4 Garratt labelled ‘Mr. Stirling’s Garratt’
 

Harpo

Established Member
Joined
21 Aug 2024
Messages
1,694
Location
Newport
Among my motley collection of friends are some old boys (70-somethings) who chased steam to the very end.

One or two have mentioned the ‘ten bob wager’ where they’d goad crews on the Bulleids from Waterloo to hit a ton. They are very definite that there were some payouts.

Approaching 60 years on from those days there will be little real evidence other than their recollections sadly.
 

Harvester

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2020
Messages
1,563
Location
Notts
Does anyone know of any particularly fast running by the Lord Nelsons?
They had a reputation for rough riding, even after modifications made by Bulleid, and were difficult to fire with the long firebox, especially when worked by unfamiliar crews. The thought of firing one of these locos, and running at very high speed, would probably give nightmares to many crews.
 

Peter Wilde

Member
Joined
14 Oct 2019
Messages
101
Location
Surrey
For the Southern, Bulleid’s Austerity Q1 “Charlies” should be added to the debate. Very powerful for an 0-6-0. Capable of 60 mph (tested up to 75) and fairly often used on passenger trains despite having been designed for freight. Only flaw (apart, arguably, from appearance!) was poor brakes.

And what about the Riddles Austerities (2-8-0 and 2-10-0; the latter was certainly a go anywhere type). Not sure how often used for passenger services but capable of it. Both types proved much more long-lived than their wartime design was intended for.
 

Harvester

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2020
Messages
1,563
Location
Notts
One thing Bulleid did seem to get right was his boilers, and both MNs and light pacifics would steam very well. If the rest of the locos were in good order, I think an MN would match and possibly out perform any locomotive on UK metals.
The MN Pacifics were excellent free steaming locos in rebuilt form, and superior to other types of 6ft 2in coupled wheeled Pacifics (Britannias, Clans, WC/BB, the A2 varieties and 71000 in it’s BR days). Whether they were a match for the larger wheeled Duchesses, A4s, Peppercorn A1s and Kylchap A3s is open to debate, but I would say doubtful. I shall have to agree to disagree, on this one Duke!
 

Peter Wilde

Member
Joined
14 Oct 2019
Messages
101
Location
Surrey
This is true. But they were not designed as a mixed traffic, go anywhere locomotive.


Can you provide links to any reliable logs of a Schools doing 90 mph or above, please?

I can certainly believe it was possible, at favourite spots, like Andover, but the SR maximum speed was a blanket 85 mph and trains simply did not need to run at such speeds in the main - if they did, they would soon get checked for running out of course.

And yes, at one point a Schools was given some kind of streamlining for experimental high-speed running, but I don't think it lasted very long.

On the SE and central sections, where the Schools largely worked, don't believe there were any such high speed spots.

In any case, mixed traffic locos - as per this thread - were not designed for 90+ mph running.


Yes, sorry. I did see some at Darlington c 1962- but all in store, I think.

It was unusual for an unrebuilt Bulleid NOT to slip when starting a train, and yes, they could slip light engine. (so could any loco if the regulator was opened too suddenly)


The 'handful' was, I think, 50 locomotives!
The Bluebell say that for their Schools class “Stowe”, Cecil J. Allen reported in 1939 on a run with this particular locomotive from Dorchester to Wareham, "recording 95mph near Wool - a speed believed to be a record for the class".

I also agree with others above that for Bulleid Pacifics - all varieties - in their last appearances around 1967, there are quite a lot of train-timer accounts citing speeds over 100 mph, up to about 105 I think
 

Pigeon

Member
Joined
8 Apr 2015
Messages
951
Black Fives, B1s, Halls: there were literally many hundreds of all of them. I'm yet to be convinced that the Southern had anything similarly versatile.

I agree. What they did have were locos that got used as if they were that versatile because they didn't have anything that actually was. After all, the Light Pacifics were technically a "mixed traffic" loco according to the wartime assessment of their driving wheel size... On the other hand the nature of the Southern's traffics and their large electrified area makes it difficult to compare them usefully with the other three.

Maybe, but back-EMF comes into it (in older motors.) You can't put full power through a stationary electric motor without blowing it up. So you can't get 5000 HP, let alone 10, out of an electric or diesel-electric loco from standing. Whereas a steam engine piston will take full boiler pressure when stationary...

...and the steam engine will give you a power output of zero, same as the [diesel-]electric.

Power = (force on piston) * (distance piston moves) / time. If it's stationary, the distance the piston moves is zero, so the power output is zero, even though the force on the piston (and so the engine torque) is at a maximum with full boiler pressure applied.

The current through an electric motor is (applied voltage - back EMF) / (winding resistance) (neglecting effects oif inductance in AC motors and the like). The waste heat generated in the motor is (current squared) / (winding resistance). For a series-wound motor like a traction motor, the torque is also proportional to (current squared). The mechanical power out of the motor is (back EMF) * current.

When the motor is stationary, the back EMF is zero, so the current is simply (applied voltage) / (winding resistance). Since the winding resistance is very small, unless the applied voltage is also very small the current will be very large. Therefore it is necessary when starting to regulate the applied voltage such that the current through the motor does not exceed the allowed maximum value - ie. the value at which heat is being generated faster than it can be removed before the thing cooks itself.

Since the current is at its maximum value, the motor torque is also at maximum, but since the motor is stationary, the back EMF is zero and the power output is also zero.

Standing further back, as it were, and looking at the loco (steam or [diesel-]electric) as a "black box what moves", the view is the same in both cases: power = speed * torque, so even though the torque in both cases is at a maximum, the speed is zero so the power is zero.

The difference is that while the power output of the steam engine cylinder is zero, the power input to it (from the boiler) is also zero, by the nature of the thing; whereas with the traction motor, the nature of the thing is to scarf the maximum amount of input power it is capable of, and turn it all into heat. It will happily (until it melts) eat everything the engine/generator can give it, so the engine power has to be limited so as not to supply more heat than the maximum allowed. The reason this becomes a matter of concern is the need for this active limiting and the potential for overheating the motor if the limiting fails in any way (including driver error), or if the motor cooling is deficient.

(The principle is much the same with a diesel-hydraulic, except that the waste heat is generated in the transmission oil, so it is much easier to remove it than it is to remove it from a solid lump of motor. A hydraulic has a much greater margin of safety against overheating the transmission when starting.)

As the traction motor accelerates, the back EMF increases, so the voltage required to push through it the current necessary to produce a given torque increases (this increase represents the increase in mechanical power output from the motor). But since power = voltage * current, then for a given electrical power, as more voltage is demanded from the generator so the available current falls. Eventually, even at maximum engine power, it will fall below the maximum current that the motor can handle without overheating; above this speed the loco is no longer capable of producing its maximum torque output, and the torque will fall as speed rises, but on the other hand it has now become self-regulating and there is no longer any need to actively limit the engine output.

Note that the effect of back EMF, and its importance, are the same for all motors, regardless of age.

(Also- it's a very subtle difference, but I suspect as a 'go anywhere, do anything' loco the Grange would pip the Hall. The Didcot fireman H.Gasson was of the opinion that a Grange was the better loco, although his experience was generally more heavy freight haulage than express passenger. They're almost the same locomotive but the slightly smaller driving wheels of the Grange gives it an edge getting a train on the move and Halls generally weren't renowned as high-speed runners anyway, generally struggling to maintain speeds higher than the mid-60s on any sizeable load.)

I agree, and I was going to propose the Grange myself. The smaller wheels match the rest of the engine better. I think they tend to get forgotten about because none of them got preserved, while loads of Halls did.

One thing Bulleid did seem to get right was his boilers, and both MNs and light pacifics would steam very well.

FSVO "get right". They readily produced a lot of steam, but they consumed an inordinate amount of coal to do it; the fireman would have to do a lot more shovelling for the same load and timings than with one of their immediate predecessors.
 

Harvester

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2020
Messages
1,563
Location
Notts
I also agree with others above that for Bulleid Pacifics - all varieties - in their last appearances around 1967, there are quite a lot of train-timer accounts citing speeds over 100 mph, up to about 105 I think
Indeed, and quite surprisingly, as by the final months these locos were on minimum maintenance and in badly run down condition. After all, they would be shortly going for scrap, and management and drivers didn’t really care about the odd blown cylinder! In fact MN 35007 blew a cylinder gland when running at 98mph on 6th July 1967!

In the final weeks the front coach of the 18:15 Weymouth to Waterloo was usually full of enthusiasts encouraging the crews, no doubt with a few whip-rounds. Listed below are the locos and top speeds recorded on this train during the penultimate week of SR steam haulage in the vicinity of milepost 38, approaching Fleet, after the decent of Winchfield bank.

Monday 26/6/67 - 35003 (106mph), Tuesday 27/6/67 - 35028 (95mph), Wednesday 28/6/67 - 35003 (105mph), Thursday - 34001 (no log but a 10 minute early arrival at Waterloo), Friday 30/6/67 - 34021 (98mph).
 
Last edited:

Bevan Price

Established Member
Joined
22 Apr 2010
Messages
7,864
For the Southern, Bulleid’s Austerity Q1 “Charlies” should be added to the debate. Very powerful for an 0-6-0. Capable of 60 mph (tested up to 75) and fairly often used on passenger trains despite having been designed for freight. Only flaw (apart, arguably, from appearance!) was poor brakes.

And what about the Riddles Austerities (2-8-0 and 2-10-0; the latter was certainly a go anywhere type). Not sure how often used for passenger services but capable of it. Both types proved much more long-lived than their wartime design was intended for.
The WD 2-8-0s were very rough riders - a local nickname was "wobblies". They did on occasion find their way onto passenger services, e.g. excursions, but this was avoided as far as possible - I believe they were supposedly restricted to 45 mph maximum.
 

70014IronDuke

Established Member
Joined
13 Jun 2015
Messages
3,892
The Bluebell say that for their Schools class “Stowe”, Cecil J. Allen reported in 1939 on a run with this particular locomotive from Dorchester to Wareham, "recording 95mph near Wool - a speed believed to be a record for the class".
Was this not the one fitted with the temporary streamlined casing?
Whatever, the Schools were not designed as go anywhere, do anything locomotives, so we are really driting off topic!
 

Tetragon213

Member
Joined
14 Oct 2024
Messages
258
Location
West Midlands
If you were to lump in the Bulleid Light Pacifics/BoBs/WCs as "go anywhere do anything" (and I still remain strongly by my conviction that they do count, on the basis of their ability to haul express freight as well as their ability to run down most of the Withered Arm lines), I feel that it would be fair to say that they were more towards the "express locomotive" end of things; I do agree that their ability with heavier loads was somewhat more marginal owing to the propensity for wheelslip.

The rebuildings did absolute wonders for both the BoBs/WCs as well as the Merchant Navy class. If it wasn't for the Merchant Navy being so heavy, I'd have put that one forward instead, but alas, there was a reason Bulleid had to design a lighter version!
 

70014IronDuke

Established Member
Joined
13 Jun 2015
Messages
3,892
If you were to lump in the Bulleid Light Pacifics/BoBs/WCs as "go anywhere do anything" (and I still remain strongly by my conviction that they do count, on the basis of their ability to haul express freight as well as their ability to run down most of the Withered Arm lines), I feel that it would be fair to say that they were more towards the "express locomotive" end of things; I do agree that their ability with heavier loads was somewhat more marginal owing to the propensity for wheelslip.
The unrebuilt Bulleids could and did work heavy loads, up to about 13 coaches (which was, I think, the max on the Southern) it was just they slipped a lot getting 'em going.

I feel this thread is a bit like the perennial Spitfire vs Hurricane in aviation discussions, which the Spitfire supporters invariably feel they 'win', because the Spitfire generally outpeformed the Hurricane when it came to flying performance - max speed, rate of climb, flying ceiling etc.

The Spit also had a better 'brand' based on this performance and its name - at least in English, not sure if a Luftwaffe pilot could feel any difference between the names - he would have just wanted to avoid the .303 bullets.

But what the armchair analysts (and I'm one, of course) frequently forget (or conveniently ignore) is what an Air Chief Marshall needs is a fighting tool, and the Hurricane was, arguably, a better fighting tool than the Spit. It was not only significantly cheaper to build, it had more room for a well built pilot and it was far, far easier (and hence both cheaper and quicker to get back in service) to repair when shot up.

On the basis of how useful a locomotive is as a tool for the traffic manager, I have to repeat, unfortunately the original Bulleids were very poor tools indeed, with terrible availability.

At one point in the early 1950s, BR considered scrapping the entire lot and building more Britannias. That plan was dropped when the rebuild costings worked out cheaper. But the fact that it came up tells you a lot about how bad the original locos were - however lovely the things looked at the head of a train.

In addition, while not strictly specified by the OP, no 3-cylinder loco is going to make it, whatever its route availability, because the title implies it has to be cheap and simple, ie a 2-cylinder loco.
 

Taunton

Established Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
11,244
Early locomotives had difficulties with the speed of the pistons, valves, and other rotating mechanical parts, as train speed, and thus rpm of these components, rose. The use of 'Singles' on higher speed passenger services allowed for very large driving wheels, hence lesser rpm, and also the absence of coupling rods, one of the most concerning components for failure at speed, although other constraints were introduced. Wheel arrangements like 4-2-4 arose, which some nowadays laugh at, but in fact the Broad gauge Bristol & Exeter used such a design for their express passenger locos for much of their independent time.

Aside from the laughter by GWR crews at Exeter St Davids when they saw a West Country 4-6-2 slip when starting off light engine, the more mechanically minded saw a loco with trailing wheels, which the GWR kept away from. When a loco starts, the pull is exerted on the drawbar to the tender, which tends to tip the loco up slightly at the front, down at the back, and puts more weight on whatever wheels are rearmost. If driving wheels, useful. If trailing wheels, wasted. It was one of the factors that led to the end of Churchward's "Great Bear".

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Can you provide links to any reliable logs of a Schools doing 90 mph or above, please?

I can certainly believe it was possible, at favourite spots, like Andover, but the SR maximum speed was a blanket 85 mph
Were they even fitted with speedometers?
 
Last edited:

70014IronDuke

Established Member
Joined
13 Jun 2015
Messages
3,892
Were they even fitted with speedometers?
I don't know, but I would wager not.
However, the one that was 'streamlined' for test purposes would, during its test runs, surely have been monitored closely for speed, coal/water consumption, etc. So its maximum speed then would have been accurately recorded.
 
Joined
1 Jul 2024
Messages
95
Location
Derbyshire Dales
coupling rods, one of the most concerning components for failure at speed
And the development of improved steel alloys and manufacturing techniques that allowed greater stresses in lighter rods. It's all tradeoffs, especially relevant to operationally flexible locomotives. Every carrying wheel represents a loss of tractive effort, but shorter wheelbase means sharper curves. Tank engine means water and coal weights are available for adhesion, but less of both. Small wheels lead to greater starting and climbing ability (for the same cylinder size and boiler pressure), but lower top speed. Smaller loco means lower power and lighter trains, but greater efficiency with those lighter trains. In the days before road transport became dominant, there was a much wider range of roles to be filled, though it seems the boring 0-6-0 bog standard tender loco could fulfil all but the extremes.
 

Taunton

Established Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
11,244
In the days before road transport became dominant, there was a much wider range of roles to be filled, though it seems the boring 0-6-0 bog standard tender loco could fulfil all but the extremes.
Until WW1 it seems that 4-4-0 for passenger, 0-6-0 for freight, and 0-6-0T for local work and shunting accounted for the majority of locos.
 

Top