occone
Member
It feels like given the inability to make them reliable, it's time for them to be retired early. Unless they could be made reliable with some massive overhaul somehow.
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Ex-EMR Class 180 at Widnes
- Thread starter Rail Quest
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Anonymous10
Established Member
Reduction in speed to 100mph, perhaps would make them more reliable, then lease to gwr to work with the 175s? (This is more speculation and wishful thinking)
simonmpoulton
Member
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I'm sure if they had been given to Alstom at Chester then they would've been made reliable just as the 175's were before CAF took over.
I remember when Northern had a few of them they managed to get them working reliably and had some choice words to say about the condition that FGW had left them in!
It's all a matter of the right maintenance.
Triumph 865
New Member
I have noticed a 180 outside Alstom Widnes over the last three weeks can anyone confirm it's 109 please
darylyates17
Member
Could they be converted to 175 running gear to lengthen 175s?
At Northern the majority of the work was a lot less than 100mph and unfortunately they were still prone to the same issues, engines shutting down and unable to restart and electrical/computer issues were a daily occurrence and yes Northern had them totally in bits at Newton Heath.
Helvellyn
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Back to EMR to allow the 7-car 222s to go to First Stirling for Lumo WCML?
MCR247
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I’m not sure the DfT would sign off on these extra costs to free up stock for an open access operation
357
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If the lease of the 222s is coming to an end and they are committed to go elsewhere - there's nothing the government can do about it.
It's a privatised industry that the government don't totally control, and if EMR need them, they will need to lease them back from Lumo.
Spaceship323
Member
Trainlogger has 109 at Widnes on 12th April https://trainlogger.co.uk/sightings/at/31908?year=2025
MCR247
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I don’t disagree with any of this but this isn’t what the poster I’d quoted was saying.
If they’d said maybe the 180s could fill a gap at EMR if 222s go to lumo because their lease has ended, I wouldn’t have replied. But the post was suggesting (or seemed to be suggesting to me) that EMR choose to take back 180s to ensure the 222s are released on time for lumo - something I don’t believe the DfT would sign of on.
357
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Ah yes you're right.
It would depend however on if Lumo are willing to take on the units later than agreed. If Lumo says no - there's not much EMR can do.
357
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I've no idea - I'm just explaining that EMR giving up the 222s and taking on temporary stock wouldn't be "the government helping open access"
The point is, if they haven’t signed a contract that commits the lessor to providing them by a given date then the scenario of “ if Lumo says no” just doesn’t exist. Lumo can say what it wants, but if the lessor agrees to extend the lease and make Lumo wait then so be it, as Lumo hardly has an abundance of other options it can use in the short term.
357
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So we are both in agreement - the rolling stock is subject to contracts and the government doesn't have the final decision where trains with no lease are going, and are not going to "help open access".
Triumph 865
New Member
Many thanks
Class15
Established Member
Of course, that definitely fits in very neatly and almost puts all the pieces of the puzzle, as I had no idea how they were going to make the 180s/221s available before the new IETs come in. One slight issue with that though. There are only 4. GC would likely need at least 6 to run their timetable I think?
43096
On Moderation
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Given that Arriva’s Brighton open access proposal is just that currently and certainly not signed off by the ORR, I think people are rather making 2+2=5 with the units at Widnes.
trainswitheddy
Member
I still think Network Rail. I'd be very surprised if the entire fleet is scrapped after GC, unlike EMU fleets we've seen end up homeless diesels are far less limited (poss .gauging restrictions aside)
Yorkshire09876
Member
Why would Network Rail want 5-car DMUs which are noted for terrible reliability? The fact that the NMT power cars have been fitted with ERTMS would seem to indicate that they don't anticipate withdrawing those any time soon.
trainswitheddy
Member
The mk1/mk2 test fleet must surely be life expired at this point, I'm unsure if they'd be able to get anything else to replace *if* needs be
Yorkshire09876
Member
Why must they be life expired? They are just standard coaches so no complicated electronics. If they rust they can be welded, and if a loco breaks down they can replace it with another one. Replacing the existing stock with unreliable 20-year-old DMUs really wouldn't make much sense.
Yep fully agreed there,they were a sows ear since new,use them all as sea defence somewhere, might be of some use then
Wyrleybart
Established Member
Quite. Anyone remember the TPE 170s which the Rosco "sold" to Chiltern Railways right under the nose of the DfT ? This resulted in DfT having ro arrange for two derelict 37s (407 and 424) to have million pound rebuilds at Derby for the Cumbrian Coast, as well as fitting blue star MU to those Mk2s and DBSOs.
It is all in the history books